Update On The "Great Moves".

[Jntg4]

Both sides misinterpret here...

1 side thinks that the other only wants to spend on free agents and devalues the farm completely... probably because a member or two on that side refer to "Elroy in Diapers", "Turd Wood", "Germhole Conception", and "Pierced Johnson"

The other side seems to think that the other is suggesting to only use prospects, when in fact they just would have preferred to wait before making big free agent splashes instead of doing it in years 1 and 2 of the rebuild (2012 and 2013). Only person that wants that might be Chris J... or perhaps waldo. But nobody really wants that either.

This absolutely idiotic back-and-forth that has gone on for months straight now is all about timing to be honest and each side is giving the wrong impression to the other.

 

[Parade_Rain]

Never said you should be consistent with another poster.

Said you should be consistent in your whining as you ignored almost the exact same thing said by another poster yet throw your sippy cup when I say it.

So far that other poster hasn't responded to me as a one note troll. It looks more like you whining that you are not only treated unfairly by the mods, but also the posters. Somebody break out a tissue for KB, please.

And yet when some of us say the thing you claim you feel, you are here arguing against it.

Nope. Strawman.

Those teams were brought up in response to the point that ZERO teams have been successful using FA.

No way! Really? Whodathunkit?

Keep up with the conversation.

I'm not the one struggling here.

Never said no one here doesn't support that.

Just that most don't.

That is your perception.

What part of the phrase "You can probably point to a couple teams that won the WS largely based on the core they developed from their system" equals not one team has won the WS in that time with just home grown talent??

It doesn't. What it means is that a team has to have FA to win the WS. The best discussion should lie in what type of FA and how many.

 

[KBisBack!]

The other side seems to think that the other is suggesting to only use prospects, when in fact they just would have preferred to wait before making big free agent splashes instead of doing it in years 1 and 2 of the rebuild (2012 and 2013).

But how is waiting on free agents until the franchise gets to a certain point not building only using the system??

 

[KBisBack!]

So far that other poster hasn't responded to me as a one note troll. It looks more like you whining that you are not only treated unfairly by the mods, but also the posters. Somebody break out a tissue for KB, please.

Pointing out your hypocrisy doesn't make me a crybaby. It makes you a hypocrite.

Nope. Strawman.

Discussion with you is pretty pointless. You have provided next to nothing factual in any discussion.

Here is how a conversation with Parade goes.

Somebody makes a point.

Parade responds by demanding facts.

Person responds with facts.

Parade responds that person is being a strawman.

Person asks Parade to provide facts to counter the point.

Parade responds that he doesn't have to provide any facts.

 

[dabynsky]

You can also add the 2001 Diamondbacks with Grace, Bell, Finley, Sanders, Big Unit and Kim signed as FA.

I'm sure we can discuss the other issues, but are you really trying to claim the Diamondbacks signing Byung-Hyun Kim at age 19 out of Korea is the same type of free agent signing that you are clamoring for the Cubs to make now?

 

[Jntg4]

But how is waiting on free agents until the franchise gets to a certain point not building only using the system??

The difference is planting the roots to a foundation and then starting to sign long-term pieces vs. just doing on or the other.

 

[KBisBack!]

I'm sure we can discuss the other issues, but are you really trying to claim the Diamondbacks signing Byung-Hyun Kim at age 19 out of Korea is the same type of free agent signing that you are clamoring for the Cubs to make now?

Typical.

What about the other five names mentioned?

Yet you want to whine and cry and make an issue out of the least significant name on the list.

 

[mountsalami]

Both sides misinterpret here...

1 side thinks that the other only wants to spend on free agents and devalues the farm completely... probably because a member or two on that side refer to "Elroy in Diapers", "Turd Wood", "Germhole Conception", and "Pierced Johnson"

The other side seems to think that the other is suggesting to only use prospects, when in fact they just would have preferred to wait before making big free agent splashes instead of doing it in years 1 and 2 of the rebuild (2012 and 2013). Only person that wants that might be Chris J... or perhaps waldo. But nobody really wants that either.

This absolutely idiotic back-and-forth that has gone on for months straight now is all about timing to be honest and each side is giving the wrong impression to the other.

It in fact it is Germhole Contraception.

Let's not forget about Hemmoroidys, Val-No-Bueno, Chris Vulva, Iham Beef-Stewshart, The Solar Flare, and Justin Germed-Manhole.

Where's Andy Sonnanstine ? He was signed in the first offseason to provide the "great starting pitching depth" that didn't exist before. Just wondering where he's at and where the great starting pitching depth is currently to this day.

My side has shown great Stoicism, while some on the other tends to flop around like a dying fish all over the cleaning table with last breath like emotions.

It's funny to me how some claim to agree with doing BOTH. But are just here trying to win a debate with people that might just be smarter than themselves ?

bearz99 has shown to be the "Knight In Shining Armour" at attempting to lead a crusade over the
"evil empire". Only problem is that he doesn't have the brawn or the mental fortitude to succeed as continuously shown by his own text. So if any of you are feeling suicidal, I suggest following him down his path of self-destruction.

 

[KBisBack!]

The difference is planting the roots to a foundation and then starting to sign long-term pieces vs. just doing on or the other.

Again, you can start to sign long term pieces at the same time you are planting the roots to a foundation.

But instead you want to wait to see if the roots take hold before signing the long term pieces, ie building only from the system.

What if the roots don't from a foundation?

The only answer I have gotten to that question is to keep doing the thing that failed the first time.

 

[Parade_Rain]

Pointing out your hypocrisy doesn't make me a crybaby. It makes you a hypocrite.



Discussion with you is pretty pointless. You have provided next to nothing factual in any discussion.

Here is how a conversation with Parade goes.

Somebody makes a point.

Parade responds by demanding facts.

Person responds with facts.

Parade responds that person is being a strawman.

Person asks Parade to provide facts to counter the point.

Parade responds that he doesn't have to provide any facts.

Your post = 0% baseball content. That's a fact. Don't ever say I don't provide facts.

 

[Parade_Rain]

Typical.

What about the other five names mentioned?

Yet you want to whine and cry and make an issue out of the least significant name on the list.

Interestingly on your list, you left out the other critical piece, imho, which is Schilling. The tandem of Schilling/Johnson made a formidable 1-2 punch in the SP department. Those are bigtime FA signings.

 

[chibears55]

Again, you can start to sign long term pieces at the same time you are planting the roots to a foundation.

But instead you want to wait to see if the roots take hold before signing the long term pieces, ie building only from the system.

What if the roots don't from a foundation?

The only answer I have gotten to that question is to keep doing the thing that failed the first time.

If a team intention is to fix their farm system from bottom up..

the best way to retool their system with quality and quantity is by having high draft picks, trading veterans for prospects, and by signing mid level FAs to 1-2 yr deals and hoping they have a good start to be able to flip them for prospects.

yea you can call it tanking seasons to get a high draft pick, but thats what teams have to do if their intention is to fix the minor league..
but if they were to add long term contracts players, they would basically be drafting in the middle of the pack or worse and basically be getting kids that dont have the same quality of the higher picks and less of a chance to make it.. plus unless im wrong they also got a higher amount of money allowed to spend on draft picks.

they have also went out and brought in some of the top international talent to load up the system with, and again because of their record they were allowed to spend a higher amount..


yes they can do both and should do both, but if their intentions are to first fix the system before they spend on long term FAs then the best way to do it is by not signing long term FAs at the start but sign FAs to 1-2 yr deals that they can flip... which they did

this off season being year 3 of that process, i do expect them to start signing some players to long term contracts over the flip projects they were doing..
they can pick up dejesus option and trade him., and they can offer shierholtz ARB. and trade him if they choose next yr to add more prospects.

 

[mountsalami]

Tanking the season for more pennies to spend internationaly is also just plain ass stupid. Same goes with draft positioning.

That kind of rationale is beyond stupid.

Hardly worth blowing seasons away for and hiring some "braintrust" and paying them millions to assemble this pathetic bullshit.

 

[mountsalami]

Dealing average to below average ML players such as DeJesus and Sheitholez for prospects isn't going to get you anywhere. More than likely you'll end up with nothing to show for it other than a simple garbage transaction to jerk off in hopes to. In the meantime the ML ballclub and fanbase is waiting for their lubrication.

Once again, these kind of transactions create nothing more than mindless busy work that creates nothing but lubrication to fuel the prospect lovers hard-ons.

Keep pulling on your twigs.

:cum::cum::cum::cum::cum::cum::cum::cum::cum::cum: :cum::cum::cum::cum::cum:

[video=youtube;Aa8Hhj35j20]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aa8Hhj35j20&feature=player_detailpage[/video]

 

[TL1961]

So....the argument now is that the Cubs should have signed FA's to a 61 win team, presumably to make them contenders.

And the person/people making that argument point out FA's BJ Upton and Shane Victorino are both sucking. But the teams they went to are winning, so we should have signed them. Apparently they came with rabbits' feet.

So if we HAD spent FA money, and got Upton and Victorino, and they played for the Cubs as poorly as they played this year.....you'd consider those GOOD moves?

WOW!

BTW....anyone who couldn't see Victorino sucking is blind.

 

[beckdawg]

My problem is with the people who say the Cubs only won 71 games last year so it would be dumb to spend any money because there is no chance the Cubs could have made the playoffs the last two years. That is a complete loser mentality. To not even try because the task appears to be too hard to complete is a total loser mentality. You never know what can happen if you try. Look at the Orioles and A's last year. No one would have said they had a chance of making the playoffs before the year began and yet they tried to field a quality team and were rewarded for it. The Cubs havent even tried to field a quality team the last two years and therefore guaranteed themselves no chance of succeeding.

This in a nutshell is your problem with the cubs. I had more of a reply typed out but in reality if you can't get past this then there's no reason to talk. It's not loser mentality it's called being realistic. Sometimes you just don't have the team to win and you've yet to prove they did even with high priced additions. And they did spend money in 2012/2013 on FAs. They just didn't drop $20 mil a season on a player. You brush it off like it doesn't matter but I've shown many of those players have played better than players making $10 mil/year or more. But because they aren't big names you don't give a crap.

Also, you cite the O's and A's and they are teams that have done the exact thing you suggest as being a loser mentality. They traded away Bedard and got back 2 core prospects(jones tillman) and then lost around 90 games for 5 straight years before last year. Before last year Oakland traded their 2 best pitchers in Gonzo and Cahill. Neither of these two teams signed high priced FA's like Fielder/Hamilton/Pujols...etc. By your arguments they weren't trying to compete. But then their young talent got to the majors and things came together.

This is literally what you're bitching at the cubs for doing. You can't have it both ways that those teams are doing things right and the cubs are doing it wrong for doing the same thing. That's why people are saying you're trolling because it's hypocrisy.

 

[Flacco4Prez]

I understand the frustration when it comes to FA, but who would the Cubs have signed this past offseason that would have made any difference in playoff position? Even if they signed the 3 big names, Greinke, Hamilton, and Upton they would not be higher in the division than they are now. They would still be in 4th place. Sure they would probably be at .500 but that shouldn't be the goal.

It would have been really nice to get Greinke though. With the way Jackson has turned it around a rotation of Greinke, Garza, Samardzija, Wood, and Jackson definitely looks like that of a contender. I personally like how they are building a foundation with prospects but time will tell. This is different than guys like Vitters and Jackson who may have been ranked as the Cubs best prospects, but were never really pronounced by many members in the baseball world. Now there are other GM's and people in the game stating how well the Cubs have rebuilt the foundation.

 

[KBisBack!]

Interestingly on your list, you left out the other critical piece, imho, which is Schilling. The tandem of Schilling/Johnson made a formidable 1-2 punch in the SP department. Those are bigtime FA signings.

I believe Schilling was traded for, wasn't he?

 

[KBisBack!]

If a team intention is to fix their farm system from bottom up..

the best way to retool their system with quality and quantity is by having high draft picks, trading veterans for prospects, and by signing mid level FAs to 1-2 yr deals and hoping they have a good start to be able to flip them for prospects.

You have just described one step forward and three steps back perfectly.

yea you can call it tanking seasons to get a high draft pick, but thats what teams have to do if their intention is to fix the minor league..
but if they were to add long term contracts players, they would basically be drafting in the middle of the pack or worse and basically be getting kids that dont have the same quality of the higher picks and less of a chance to make it.. plus unless im wrong they also got a higher amount of money allowed to spend on draft picks.

they have also went out and brought in some of the top international talent to load up the system with, and again because of their record they were allowed to spend a higher amount..

Look at all the prospects Theo drafted in Boston.

Pedroia, Lester, Buchholz, Ellsbury, Jackie Bradley, and Paplebon. Not a one of them drafted higher than 19th in the first round I believe.

Look at the Cardinals. Molina, Lynn, Miller, Wacha, Wong, Craig, and Carpenter. None of them again drafted higher than 19th.

Players like Trout, Sale, Jose Fernandez, all picked no higher than 13th in the first round.

The blind worshippers defend the lack of money by saying it is being used to improve the scouting.

Yet they then also turn around and say that the team needs to pick in the top 5.

What is the point of all this great scouting if you are just going to pick in the top 5??

The money spent on improved scouting should make it possible to draft in the middle of the rounds or worse and still be able to find quality talent like other teams are able to, shouldn't it??

But what you wrote is exactly what the PR campaign wants you to believe.

 

[KBisBack!]

This in a nutshell is your problem with the cubs. I had more of a reply typed out but in reality if you can't get past this then there's no reason to talk. It's not loser mentality it's called being realistic. Sometimes you just don't have the team to win and you've yet to prove they did even with high priced additions. And they did spend money in 2012/2013 on FAs. They just didn't drop $20 mil a season on a player. You brush it off like it doesn't matter but I've shown many of those players have played better than players making $10 mil/year or more. But because they aren't big names you don't give a crap.

Also, you cite the O's and A's and they are teams that have done the exact thing you suggest as being a loser mentality. They traded away Bedard and got back 2 core prospects(jones tillman) and then lost around 90 games for 5 straight years before last year. Before last year Oakland traded their 2 best pitchers in Gonzo and Cahill. Neither of these two teams signed high priced FA's like Fielder/Hamilton/Pujols...etc. By your arguments they weren't trying to compete. But then their young talent got to the majors and things came together.

This is literally what you're bitching at the cubs for doing. You can't have it both ways that those teams are doing things right and the cubs are doing it wrong for doing the same thing. That's why people are saying you're trolling because it's hypocrisy.

It is not hypocrisy.

If you think Oakland operates under the same resources that the Cubs do, well it is a waste of time to talk baseball with you because you do not have a clue.

They traded Gio and Cahill because they knew they didn't have the money to keep them around. Not because they preferred to build the minor league system.

I am quite sure if Billy Beane had the choice, he would have preferred keeping those players around.

Same with Balitimore. They no longer have the resources they had when the first moved to Camden Yards.

And no you are wrong by saying by my arguments would point to neither team trying.

Oakland went out and spent big on Cespedes.

Baltimore traded for Jason Hammel who was their best starter last year. They added Wei Ye Chen who was their second best starter.

Neither team dropped their payrolls by nearly 1/3 like the Cubs did from 2011 to 2012.

They made a much more serious effort to field competitive teams than the Cubs did last year.