Update- Santo in! 15 of 16 votes

[brett05]

Kenny Lofton was much more valuable than Harold Baines. Lofton probably won't get in, unfortunately. You can take a look at raw numbers as a baseline, but you definitely have to look at how good those guys were.

For example, Jim Edmonds is a lot better than Harold Baines as well, and at Lofton's level in terms of value. Jim Edmonds might get into the HOF but a lot of people think it's borderline.

I am not talking about Baines over anyone. Just Baines versus his contemporaries. Just Santo versus his contemporaries.

 

[brett05]

Just because Santo was dropped from the ballot doesn't mean the voters weren't Special person.

You are right. Major conspiracy.

 

[brett05]

Just because Santo was dropped from the ballot doesn't mean the voters weren't Special person.

Just because baines only got 6% doesn't mean he should be in? Sounds just as bad doesn't it?

 

[brett05]

For what it is worth by way of comparison, baseball-reference compares Santo to no hall of fame players while Baines is comparable to 5 hall of fame players.

I show that just to say an argument can be made for Baines being in.

 

[Rice Cube]

Just because baines only got 6% doesn't mean he should be in? Sounds just as bad doesn't it?

No, there are two separate arguments. One is whether people who study and watch baseball objectively think Santo should be in. The other is whether the media folks (including the contemporary versions of ignorant asshats like Paul Sullivan, even though I'm not sure Sullivan has a vote) thinks Santo should be in.

There is no objective measure that says Baines should get into the HOF. But there have been arguments for the side of Santo by many outside this board. Ron Santo is one of the greatest Cubs players of all-time and definitely in the top five if not the top third baseman of all-time as a Cub. Harold Baines was a DH who was very solid while he was young but basically latched on as a DH to end his career.

I'd post links and studies to support Santo's candidacy but it's not like anti-Santo folks would read it anyway. There are no pro- or anti-Baines studies of note out there (at least I haven't found any) because he isn't getting in so there's really no discussion there. This is not to take anything away from Baines; he had a successful career, he's just not a Hall of Famer.

You know who is though? This guy:

Frank Thomas Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com

 

[FirstTimer]

That does not say Carl is out.

HINT************** YAZ IS ONE OF THE PLAYERS WHO HIT MUCH WORSE AWAY FROM HIS HOME FIELD!

How hard is that to pick up on?

Baines was an incredible RF when he was healthy. A small sample size though

No gold gloves..no real standout seasons...baines was not an incredible fielder...He was above average...but not upper tier.

They both need to be argued in is what I have said

You are incredibly dense.

You: Santo shouldn't be a HOF'er because he has to be argued in

You: I think Baines should be a HOF'er. I have an argument/case for it.

Let that sink in for a second.

Now go away.

For what it is worth by way of comparison, baseball-reference compares Santo to no hall of fame players while Baines is comparable to 5 hall of fame players.

It's not worth anything.

Baines career numbers "compare well" because he played for so long.

No one in their right mind would compare the careers of Andrew Dawson, Al Kaline, Tony Perez, Dave Parker, or Jim Rice with Harold Baines. Ever. This is a perfect example of simple stat compiling while never being great skewing data. Look at his year by year comparisons. No HOF'ers until you get to Tony Perez' broken down last 6 seasons. His only other comparable is Dave Winfields first full season in the bigs.

Look at his HOF monitors you quoted for Santo......Santo is much higher and much closer. Baines on 3 of the 4 isn't even in the ball park. Santo is at least scraping the underside of them.

I show that just to say an argument can be made for Baines being in.

There is no argument for Harold Baines in the HOF.

Just because baines only got 6% doesn't mean he should be in? Sounds just as bad doesn't it?

That migh tbe true inrelation to Santo except for teh fact that Baines always hovered around 5%..then dropped. Santo got 4%..then got back on the ballot, got 10% and never looked back basically rising each year percentage wise. ...which one of these is not like the other.................

Baines was on the ballot for half a decade and NEVER had any meaningful support. Santo was on the ballot for years and his support started rising over that time. You trying to compare the two is absurd.

Santo compared to his contemporaries>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Baines. it's not close. and Not a question.

 

[FirstTimer]

I still can't get over that someone thinks Harold Baines has a case for the HOF.

This is absurd.

 

[FirstTimer]

Harold Baines. HOF'er. The one catagory he lead the league in: Slugging percentage. 1984.

/black ink.

Gray ink....barely anything post 1985.

Played for 21 years.

WUT?!

 

[brett05]

Go check the splits of Yaz and Santo. You are crazy to suggested the splits are similar

 

[brett05]

I still can't get over that someone thinks Harold Baines has a case for the HOF.

This is absurd.

2900 hits just about. Healthy knees and he has 3200

 

[FirstTimer]

3,000 hits? Nope.

500 HR's? Nope.

Any other typical HOF bench marks? Nope.


Played for 21 seasons.

WUT?!

 

[FirstTimer]

Go check the splits of Yaz and Santo. You are crazy to suggested the splits are similar

I never said they were "similar" I simply said there are other players who hit muchbetetr at home than away....as if that's even an issue. How is that even an arguement? Well this guy didn't hit well away from home! He shouldn't be in the HOF? What?!

 

[FirstTimer]

Batting average difference between Home and Away:

Ron Santo: -.39
Kirby Puckett: -.53
Yaz: -.42
Wade Boggs: -.52
Jim Rice: -.43

Tsk tsk Ron!

 

[Rice Cube]

I never said they were "similar" I simply said there are other players who hit muchbetetr at home than away....as if that's even an issue. How is that even an arguement? Well this guy didn't hit well away from home! He shouldn't be in the HOF? What?!

That's probably why Larry Walker got dinged.

 

[FirstTimer]

2900 hits just about. Healthy knees and he has 3200

Toughshit.

Healthy Knees and Mantle is the GOAT.

Healthy Knees and Dawson is a first ballot HOF'er.

Healthy Knees and Gale Sayers is the GOAT

If grandma had nuts...she'd be grandpa.

 

[FirstTimer]

That's probably why Larry Walker got dinged.

That's a 70pt difference. Coors =/= Wigley than going to play at other parks during the 60's. I get it...but I still hate the argument. There have been pletny of guys that played in Coors and still couldnt hit.

 

[Rice Cube]

That's a 70pt difference. Coors =/= Wigley than going to play at other parks during the 60's. I get it...but I still hate the argument. There have been pletny of guys that played in Coors and still couldnt hit.

Yeah, I think if you look at the HOF candidate you have to look at his entire body of work. You kind of ask "what would this guy have done if he played in Petco Park in the 2000s instead of at Wrigley in 1965 or at Coors before the humidor" but the truth is that baseball is so random that you just don't know. What we do know is that Ron Santo had a very good eye at the plate and was an excellent defender which is why he's constantly in conversations for HOF consideration. Even if he was an asshole.

 

[brett05]

That's a 70pt difference. Coors =/= Wigley than going to play at other parks during the 60's. I get it...but I still hate the argument. There have been pletny of guys that played in Coors and still couldnt hit.

It does for taters

 

[Rice Cube]

Another player that should get in the HOF before Harold Baines but won't because A- he's borderline and B- ZOMFG STEROIDS:

Sammy Sosa Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com

 

[85Bears4life]

Another player that should get in the HOF before Harold Baines but won't because A- he's borderline and B- ZOMFG STEROIDS:

Sammy Sosa Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com

Beaseball been bery bery goo to me