Update- Santo in! 15 of 16 votes

[Rice Cube]

Thanks Rice for taking some time to clean out the garabge in an otherwise quality thread.

That's fine. Keep it mellow or else the thread disappears. (Goes for everyone)

 

[FirstTimer]

Thanks Rice for taking some time to clean out the garabge in an otherwise quality thread.

:date:

 

[FirstTimer]

That's fine. Keep it mellow or else the thread disappears. (Goes for everyone)

 

[Rice Cube]

:beerbang:

 

[brett05]

- 85Bears4Life shows a blog stating why Santo should be a Hall of Famer (several agree with him)
- LexL thinks Santo should be in because Rizzuto is in
- Brett05 shows numbers bloated because of Wrigley Field
- LexL insinuates that Wrigley is not easy to hit because of the wind blowing in (no evidence provided for or against this belief by participants besides hearsay)
- Brett05 proposes Santo may have been the best 3b at the time he played, but doesn’t mean he’s a Hall worthy, uses writers and contemporaries of the veterans committee as evidence
- Rice Cube questions splits of Santo, Says 75% of baseball world knows Santo should be in, but the 16 current voters are the issue
- Brett05 objects to Rice Cube’s number of 75%, and uses the lack of percentages of Santo for HOF as well as the number of times the system has changed that should make it easier for Santo to get in, but hasn’t to date
- Rice Cube shows stats to show Ron as a valuable player and takes the next step putting Ron into the Hall of Fame, own link shows 3 of 4 monitors showing Ronnie outside of the Hall. Rice Cube believes the issue is that the voters miscast their votes (last comment has gone unchallenged)
- Brett05 States Santo is a good player. Reinterates the splits are bad for Ron and shows other minor points that unfortunately keep Ron out.
- Brett05 admits it is ok to want Santo in and says he wants Baines in, but knows it won’t happen and is ok with it implying Cub fans should be ok with Santo not going in
- Rice Cube talks about voters becoming more knowledgeable as the younger journalists get votes, but Brett05 counters that point showing the life on the ballot doesn’t allow that to occur regardless of the truthfulness of it
- Rice Cube talks about another special committee formed where Santo has support to get in and needs 12 of 16 votes, says it is almost only political reasons why Santo is out
- FirstTimer discusses how Ron hurt his chances, but still thinks he should be in based on his comparison to his era, refuted by brett05 “One Eyed Man is King” debate. Disagrees with Baines comment made by Brett05
- Rice Cube says Santo is better than Baines but it is close, Brett05 says it isn’t Santo vs Baines, it’s players vs peers
- Rice Cube thinks Dawson probably shouldn’t be a HOF, Brett0/FT disagrees,
- FirstTimer debates merits between Santo vs Baines, but that isn’t the issue
- FirstTimer says other Hall of Fame splits are bad too, uses Yaz, truly a bad comparison
- FirstTimer ad hominem attacks LexL
- Discussions on several different people that should have been first ballot guys
- Rice Cube believes Rice and Dawson shouldn’t be in at all
- Rice Cube talks about debates on guys in or out unless you are a slam dunk, Brett05 agrees
- Brett05 thinks both are out (santo and baines) but believes a case can be made for Baines, never says one can’t be made for Santo
- Brett05 objects to the longevity argument of padding stats FT made earlier
- FirstTimer states hall of fame percentages of Santo, they are wrong. Also ignores that special rules were made to get Ron back on.
- First Timer says he doesn’t penalizes longevity, but several of his future posts contradict that statement
- Brett05 again states that cases can be made for Santo and Baines, but both are out and shouldn’t be argued in (comment is misread multiple times by others in thread)
- Rice Cube then brings others better than Baines but won’t get in. Brett05 has no idea how this is applicable since no one ever said Baines is the first player not in that deserves to be
- Rice Cube still believes all writers and players have grudge against Santo which is the reason he is out
- Brett05 shows Baseball Reference shows Baines stats comparable to five Hall of Famers showing a case (never mentioning how good of one) can be made for Baines
- Rice Cube shows Santo more popular than Baines, no one ever said he wasn’t. Random comment by Rice Cube that Frank Thomas is a hall of famer
- First Timer goes to explain why Baines isn’t a hall of famer, no one said he should be in, just a case can be made that he could be
- First Timer continues ad hominem
- Banter about Sosa and roids
- Where are we in the discussion? Summary above

 

[FirstTimer]

- 85Bears4Life shows a blog stating why Santo should be a Hall of Famer (several agree with him)
- LexL thinks Santo should be in because Rizzuto is in
- Brett05 shows numbers bloated because of Wrigley Field
- LexL insinuates that Wrigley is not easy to hit because of the wind blowing in (no evidence provided for or against this belief by participants besides hearsay)
- Brett05 proposes Santo may have been the best 3b at the time he played, but doesn’t mean he’s a Hall worthy, uses writers and contemporaries of the veterans committee as evidence
- Rice Cube questions splits of Santo, Says 75% of baseball world knows Santo should be in, but the 16 current voters are the issue
- Brett05 objects to Rice Cube’s number of 75%, and uses the lack of percentages of Santo for HOF as well as the number of times the system has changed that should make it easier for Santo to get in, but hasn’t to date
- Rice Cube shows stats to show Ron as a valuable player and takes the next step putting Ron into the Hall of Fame, own link shows 3 of 4 monitors showing Ronnie outside of the Hall. Rice Cube believes the issue is that the voters miscast their votes (last comment has gone unchallenged)
- Brett05 States Santo is a good player. Reinterates the splits are bad for Ron and shows other minor points that unfortunately keep Ron out.
- Brett05 admits it is ok to want Santo in and says he wants Baines in, but knows it won’t happen and is ok with it implying Cub fans should be ok with Santo not going in
- Rice Cube talks about voters becoming more knowledgeable as the younger journalists get votes, but Brett05 counters that point showing the life on the ballot doesn’t allow that to occur regardless of the truthfulness of it
- Rice Cube talks about another special committee formed where Santo has support to get in and needs 12 of 16 votes, says it is almost only political reasons why Santo is out
- FirstTimer discusses how Ron hurt his chances, but still thinks he should be in based on his comparison to his era, refuted by brett05 “One Eyed Man is King” debate. Disagrees with Baines comment made by Brett05
- Rice Cube says Santo is better than Baines but it is close, Brett05 says it isn’t Santo vs Baines, it’s players vs peers
- Rice Cube thinks Dawson probably shouldn’t be a HOF, Brett0/FT disagrees,
- FirstTimer debates merits between Santo vs Baines, but that isn’t the issue
- FirstTimer says other Hall of Fame splits are bad too, uses Yaz, truly a bad comparison
- FirstTimer ad hominem attacks LexL
- Discussions on several different people that should have been first ballot guys
- Rice Cube believes Rice and Dawson shouldn’t be in at all
- Rice Cube talks about debates on guys in or out unless you are a slam dunk, Brett05 agrees
- Brett05 thinks both are out (santo and baines) but believes a case can be made for Baines, never says one can’t be made for Santo
- Brett05 objects to the longevity argument of padding stats FT made earlier
- FirstTimer states hall of fame percentages of Santo, they are wrong. Also ignores that special rules were made to get Ron back on.
- First Timer says he doesn’t penalizes longevity, but several of his future posts contradict that statement
- Brett05 again states that cases can be made for Santo and Baines, but both are out and shouldn’t be argued in (comment is misread multiple times by others in thread)
- Rice Cube then brings others better than Baines but won’t get in. Brett05 has no idea how this is applicable since no one ever said Baines is the first player not in that deserves to be
- Rice Cube still believes all writers and players have grudge against Santo which is the reason he is out
- Brett05 shows Baseball Reference shows Baines stats comparable to five Hall of Famers showing a case (never mentioning how good of one) can be made for Baines
- Rice Cube shows Santo more popular than Baines, no one ever said he wasn’t. Random comment by Rice Cube that Frank Thomas is a hall of famer
- First Timer goes to explain why Baines isn’t a hall of famer, no one said he should be in, just a case can be made that he could be
- First Timer continues ad hominem
- Banter about Sosa and roids
- Where are we in the discussion? Summary above

Terrible summation.

Fail.

Esecailly in cosnideration of teh Yaz splits. Which I showed...and you ignored.

As usualy when it comes to discussion here you are clueless.

LOl at me contradicting the longevity discussion. I said I don't penalize longevity..Because I don't...but I also put the numbers in context overall. Hell, Baines doesn't even have the "longevity" HOF benchmark numbers 3,000 hits, 500 HR's, 400HR's etc.

Baines played for a long ass time. Great. But frankly, in terms of a HOF case he did nothing with those 22 seasons. He didn't hit any real benchmark number, barely made all star teams, barely won silver sluggers, was barely a blip on MVP voting, etc etc etc.

Longevity is nice........ but in Baines case, in relation to the HOF, he did practically nothing with it.

You even bringing up Baines or saying a case can be made for Baines in the HOF is one of the worst sports ideas I have ever seen.

 

[brett05]

Your Yaz splits compared to Santo's splits are crazy talk. Yaz has the totals to go with his stats. Show me any Yaz stat twice as good at home as I did with Santo's taters stats.

 

[brett05]

Apparently him being on the ballot for 6 years means others had cases for him too. But right, no case can be made.

 

[85Bears4life]

- 85Bears4Life shows a blog stating why Santo should be a Hall of Famer (several agree with him)

I take full responsibility for this thread.....Delete mods/lock:crying:

 

[brett05]

Baines played for ... 22 seasons. He didn't hit any real benchmark number,

barely made all star teams,
barely won silver sluggers,

How does one barely make all star teams and barely win silver slugger awards. Is this akin to sort of pregnant?

 

[brett05]

I take full responsibility for this thread.....Delete mods/lock:crying:

You made a great thread. A lot of baseball talk happened.

 

[Rice Cube]

Your Yaz splits compared to Santo's splits are crazy talk. Yaz has the totals to go with his stats. Show me any Yaz stat twice as good at home as I did with Santo's taters stats.

I forgot when the mound was lowered but you can also see that Yaz benefitted from the AL adopting the DH to extend his career. Ron Santo had one year as a White Sox where he could DH but chose to retire right afterwards, possibly due to health and possibly because he just fell off a cliff. Over the same length of career Yaz hit less homers than Santo and only has more HR because he played longer. Yes, there's a split, but using taters as your primary metric to gauge HOF-ness is inappropriate.

They played different positions. Yaz was a terrific defender in the outfield. Santo was a great 3B, an opinion supported by his peers. There's value in that too. If Santo had been able to play longer, maybe he's just as valuable as Yaz turned out to be.

 

[Rice Cube]

I take full responsibility for this thread.....Delete mods/lock:crying:

No worries

 

[Rice Cube]

The other question you can ask is, was Fenway a hitters' park or a pitchers' park in Yaz's day?

 

[brett05]

I forgot when the mound was lowered but you can also see that Yaz benefitted from the AL adopting the DH to extend his career. Ron Santo had one year as a White Sox where he could DH but chose to retire right afterwards, possibly due to health and possibly because he just fell off a cliff. Over the same length of career Yaz hit less homers than Santo and only has more HR because he played longer. Yes, there's a split, but using taters as your primary metric to gauge HOF-ness is inappropriate.

I use his splits as do most people who vote Ron out becuase they are off, and none more off than his homer total. Ron benefited from Wrigley more than Yaz did at Fenway.

They played different positions. Yaz was a terrific defender in the outfield. Santo was a great 3B, an opinion supported by his peers. There's value in that too. If Santo had been able to play longer, maybe he's just as valuable as Yaz turned out to be.

Quite possibly. BTW, I don't really know why Ron stopped, could have been health though, diabetes is tough, especially then as FIRST TIMER mentioned earlier.

 

[brett05]

Originally Posted by Lex L.

Originally Posted by brett05
“Santo is not a hall of famer and his peers agree on his exclusion. He hit 2/3 of his homers at home and like 50 points higher at home too. He got a massive benefit from the Friendly Confines

As for Dick Allen not playing 3b, he did over Santo when on the White Sox

He was a jerk to the media and his teammates when he was a player. Ge just doesn't cut it. He was a good player but not hall worthy. Not even close. Sorry”
Most people don't realize that the wind blows in more often at Wrigley than it blows out.

No question Wrigley is a beast when the wind blows in. Here’s the evidence that Wrigley is a hitters park though and dispels the myth that Wrigley overall is a hard park to hit in:

Chicago Cubs Attendance, Stadiums, and Park Factors - Baseball-Reference.com

 

[brett05]

Originally Posted by Rice Cube
Santo's fans extend past just Cubs fans

I don’t think so, but it’s pretty subjective anyways. Considering he was not liked by teammates or media I am not sure why anyone outside of the Cubs would like him as it relates to baseball. Now you want to say people like him because of Juvenile Diabetes, I am in agreement there but that has nothing to do with his eligibility into the Hall of Fame. Historically off the field stuff doesn’t help a candidate to get in, but can in some instances hurt the chances.

 

[brett05]

The other question you can ask is, was Fenway a hitters' park or a pitchers' park in Yaz's day?

Good point.

Boston Red Sox Attendance, Stadiums, and Park Factors - Baseball-Reference.com

About the same as Wrigley Field

 

[FirstTimer]

Your Yaz splits compared to Santo's splits are crazy talk. Yaz has the totals to go with his stats. Show me any Yaz stat twice as good at home as I did with Santo's taters stats.

......It's laughable that Santo is actually punished for hitting better at home. How is that an argument? Not only that the totals weren't "double".

126 x 2 =/= 216.

Now who is using incorrect numbers?

Clown.

Santo's totals, at the time he retird were great for a 3B. Especialyl relative to his era.

You compare Santo's career totals with say a guy like Brooks Robinson...and he's right there.

Santo: .277 342HRs 1331 RBI's .362OBP .826OPS OPS+125
Robinson: .267 268HR 1357 RBI's .322 OBP .723 OPS OPS+ 104


Obviously Robinson was the superior defender. He has an MVP, etc etc etc. He's the better player. But Santo at least compares to him enough that if the strongest argument for Santo not getting into the HOF is that he didn't hit better on the road....seriously? That's it?

One could make a compelling case that Santo is one of the 10 best 3B ever. The anti-Santo arguments at this point are pretty weak.

"He didn't hit well enough away from Wrigley". Ok? Which kind of makes his career totals all that more impressive. Wade Boggs had a 52 point BA difference between home and road and only 40% of his HR's came on the on the road(Santo had a 39 point difference and only 36% of his HR's came on the road) but no one was bitching about Wade Bogg's splits..ever.

Weak sauce.

 

[brett05]

Yaz dh's about 430 games out of 3300, so what about 12%

Again, not even sure why we are even talking Yaz.