Was Kane Party Thread, Now Turned To Bolland For Selke Debates.

[nwfisch]

But the argument that this article makes, and one that I'd never even considered, is that Bolland is used in the defensive role more than any other forward and exceeds in that role better than anyone else.

Maybe he's just the product of a real, real good system. That's fine. Because it's a damn, damn good product.

I just think its still silly to eliminate guys like Toews and Kopitar just because they're elite on the offensive as well as the defensive end. Those guys can't play 60 a game and someone else has to step in. Thankfully for the Blackhawks, they have a guy like Bolland who can do that. Hopefully Kruger can follow.

Like I said, I don't believe Bolland is the best defensive forward on his own team and I just find it hard it hard to give him an award for his defensive prowess.

 

[DMelt36]

I just think its still silly to eliminate guys like Toews and Kopitar just because they're elite on the offensive as well as the defensive end.

Like I said, I don't believe Bolland is the best defensive forward on his own team and I just find it hard it hard to give him an award for his defensive prowess.

But why keep giving a guy an award based on his reputation of being a good defensive player as opposed to a guy that's actually doing it?

Not denying that Toews or Kopitar are great defensive players, but if they aren't using those skills as much as other guys, then why should they get an award?

 

[nwfisch]

But why keep giving a guy an award based on his reputation of being a good defensive player as opposed to a guy that's actually doing it?

Not denying that Toews or Kopitar are great defensive players, but if they aren't using those skills as much as other guys, then why should they get an award?

Giving the Selke to Bolland would be like Nate Vasher winning the DPOY Award in 05 over Urlacher. Sure Vasher did great covering, but I think we all know who ran the defense.

I dunno. Even though role players have won the Selke before, I just don't believe a guy whose focus on one end should be rewarded over a guy who's at both ends of the ice. I just disagree with that.

 

[DMelt36]

The Frank J. Selke Trophy is awarded annually to the National Hockey League forward who demonstrates the most skill in the defensive component of the game

I see nothing in there about offense abilities. If that doesn't change your mind, then I'm out of things to say that won't end in a bunch of Zs.

 

[nwfisch]

I see nothing in there about offense abilities. If that doesn't change your mind, then I'm out of things to say.

That's fine and I know what the award is for. I disagree that a guy like Bolland should have precedent over Toews or Hossa. Bolland shouldn't be rewarded for being elite at one end of the ice over another vs a guy who plays two ways. I just disagree.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDyx10eukUI%27"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDyx10eukUI[/ame]

 

[Capt. Serious]

So a guy who disappears for long stretches should be a Selke finalist..got it.

 

[Captain Iago]

Dave Bolland- Chicago
Sutter-Carolina
Thompson-Tampa Bay.

Not sure I see the point of that quote where all 3 finalists come from relatively large markets.

The qualifier of x% of faceoffs eliminating a guy like Toews, Datsuyk and Kopitar is silly.

Hey! someone read it!

It was a strange way to narrow the field, I'll give ya that. But I guess his philosophy was that guys who have to consistently prove themselves by being put on the ice for defensive zone faceoffs are better candidates for the Selke, which is supposed to be about a player's defensive abilities.

Maybe silly, but maybe not. I may not be hip to all of the new stats, but I'm old and might be able to provide a perspective (be it right or wrong). I think it may be more traditionalist paradigm that led to these qualifiers. However, the game has changed. Traditionally, teams' best players were not penalty killers--there were only a few. That's a huge paradigm shift as nowadays it's often become the norm, I'm supposing, because of expansion (or as I'd prefer to call it - over-expansion). As for Toews, Datsyuk, and Kopitar, they are going to get more offensive faceoffs for two big reasons - you want them in better positions to score (obviously, duh--you know this)--and also, these teams are puck possession teams, which, when on good teams, will lead to more offensive zone face-offs generally. The flaw with this is that Bolland is on a puck possession team. I don't consider Carolina nor Tampa puck possession type teams--I'm going based on what I know of those teams and someone with more knowledge of corsi can refute/affirm that. Bolland is taking those D draws not because of how awesome he is at face-offs (as we all know), but rather because he knows what to do after a face-off defensively--an area I always felt was monstrously huge and often more important than winning or losing the face-off.

Datsyuk doesn't kill penalties.

That alone should cut him out of Selke talks. If you're never on the ice during the most defense intensive portions of a game, you can't be considered a top defensive forward.

That's certainly an interesting point.

 

[Capt. Serious]

Dats doesn't kill penalties? WTF are you watching?

 

[DMelt36]

Datsyuk doesn't kill penalties.

That alone should cut him out of Selke talks. If you're never on the ice during the most defense intensive portions of a game, you can't be considered a top defensive forward.

Not entirely true ....

Logged 85:29 of SH time during the regular season.

Eleventh on his team and sixth among their forwards. He's out there, just not that much. But I'm with you that it should definitely count against him.

2011-2012 - Regular Season - Detroit Red Wings - All Skaters - Time On Ice - Points - NHL.com - Stats

Bolland had 134:17. 2nd most among forwards on his team, trailing only Hossa.

 

[Captain Iago]

Giving the Selke to Bolland would be like Nate Vasher winning the DPOY Award in 05 over Urlacher. Sure Vasher did great covering, but I think we all know who ran the defense.

I dunno. Even though role players have won the Selke before, I just don't believe a guy whose focus on one end should be rewarded over a guy who's at both ends of the ice. I just disagree with that.

Bleh on you for bringing football into the discussion. :tongue:

By pure definition, the Selke is for the best defensive forward. However, to your point of view but not necessarily to your point, defense doesn't always occur in your own zone. How is that measured or qualified?

 

[Captain Iago]

Not entirely true ....

Logged 85:29 of SH time during the regular season.

Eleventh on his team and sixth among their forwards. He's out there, just not that much. But I'm with you that it should definitely count against him.

2011-2012 - Regular Season - Detroit Red Wings - All Skaters - Time On Ice - Points - NHL.com - Stats

Bolland had 134:17. 2nd most among forwards on his team, trailing only Hossa.

Datsyuk is the sixth pk forward? Wow, I would not have thought that. :themoreIknow: Definitely counts against him.

Edit: Especially considering he seems to usually be in the Lady Byng discussions, too. He doesn't take many penalties, so he's certainly not missing out at logging a lot of pk time because he's the one in the box.

 

[Capt. Serious]

Datsyuk played 1:13 per game shorthanded

Yeah he didn't kill penalties.

 

[DewsSox79]

Datsyuk doesn't kill penalties.

That alone should cut him out of Selke talks. If you're never on the ice during the most defense intensive portions of a game, you can't be considered a top defensive forward.

What?!?!?

this thread is full of fail.

Where else can you find fans chiming in on bolland for selke? what a joke.

He isnt even the best defensive forward on his own fucking team.

This is priceless material.

 

[Capt. Serious]

What?!?!?

this thread is full of fail.

Where else can you find fans chiming in on bolland for selke? what a joke.

He isnt even the best defensive forward on his own fucking team.

This is priceless material.

Bolland in the same breath as Dats is priceless.

 

[DMelt36]

What?!?!?

this thread is full of fail.

Where else can you find fans chiming in on bolland for selke? what a joke.

He isnt even the best defensive forward on his own fucking team.

This is priceless material.

What, only OPS and DPS count?

Those numbers indicate that guys like Bolland, Sutter, and Thompson played against some of the toughest competition in the NHL on a consistent basis, they were frequently thrown on the ice to deal with a defensive zone faceoff, and they performed very well in those situations.

The numbers don't lie. It's not just about Bolland. There are now legitimate statistics that are far better at determining defensive skills outside of giveaways and takeaways, it's time for the NHL to consider them.

 

[DMelt36]

Think you're missing the point here, Dews. These numbers aren't saying that Bolland or Sutter or Thompson are the best three defensive forwards in the NHL.

These numbers are saying that, during the 2011-12 season, those guys had the best PERFORMANCE in the role of the defensive forward. And, to me, that's what the Selke should be all about.

 

[Everyday I'm Byfuglien]

These numbers are saying that, during the 2011-12 season, those guys had the best PERFORMANCE in the role of the defensive forward. And, to me, that's what the Selke should be all about.

But face offs, takeaways and goals are so much easier to see and they get the votes. :facepalm:

 

[DewsSox79]

yes.

bolland should be a selke winner.

this convo is beyond stupid. I knew there were a lot of homers here but bolland for selke is just plain stupid.

I think hawkwriter should write about this.

 

[DewsSox79]

Think you're missing the point here, Dews. These numbers aren't saying that Bolland or Sutter or Thompson are the best three defensive forwards in the NHL.

These numbers are saying that, during the 2011-12 season, those guys had the best PERFORMANCE in the role of the defensive forward. And, to me, that's what the Selke should be all about.

and no.

The Frank J. Selke Trophy is awarded annually to the National Hockey League forward who demonstrates the most skill in the defensive component of the game. The winner is selected by a poll of the Professional Hockey Writers' Association following the regular season.[1] It has been awarded 33 times to 21 different players since the 1977–78 NHL season. The current holder is Ryan Kesler of the Vancouver Canucks.

there is no rule that the player has to be in that specific "role". Its the "most skill in the defensive component of the game." this is flat out Special person.

The Frank J. Selke Trophy is an annual award given to the forward who best excels in the defensive aspects of the game. The winner is selected in a poll of the Professional Hockey Writers' Association at the end of the regular season

Frank J. Selke Trophy - 2012 NHL Awards

he doesnt belong anywhere near those players.

 

[ClydeLee]

From the link posted... "The Frank J. Selke Trophy is an annual award given to the forward who best excels in the defensive aspects of the game."

I don't see skill said there.. can someone actually stick to the one official term or is there not one known?