Why Do Fans Overpay?

[SilenceS]

Well if they both suck, at least Marmol is in less :lol:

And he probably would have ended up in our rotation, but he hasn't been better this year than Samardzija, Wood, Villanueva, or even Feldman, and Jackson seems like he's locked into a spot for now. Then we have Garza coming back too, plus Baker. I'm not sure he'd end up sticking in the rotation all that long.

I would venture to guess they wouldnt have signed Baker. It would have been him and Feldman and having to injury concerns in the rotation would not have been smart. Villanueva was a back up pitcher. He was a swing man that could start or be in the pen. A lot of fans from his past teams says he starts strong and starts to fade as the season goes on. So we will see. If I am the Cubs, I would be looking to shop him and Feldman right now. I did read that the Cubs would dangle Wood out there as well. The worst part about Marmol right now is the numbers suggest he has been lucky so far. Think about that.

 

[KBisBack!]

like you had any to begin with? We had been trying to get rid of Marmol for 3 years now. We just found a deal for him, because there was 1 year left, it fell through for reasons I don't care to look into anymore.

The reason you don't care to look into it anymore is because Theo and Co pulled out of the deal for reasons unknown and appear to be incredible stupid.

 

[KBisBack!]

BTW, the Cubs pulled the Marmol/Haren deal off the table because of Haren's medical red flags.

But somehow those medical 'red flags' were not a concern for a team with less resources available than the Cubs, that went to the NLCS last year and was many people's preseason pick to win the World Series to sign and give a rotation spot to.

But somehow it would have been dumb for a 100 loss team with more money to do the same thing?

Really???

 

[KBisBack!]

As you like to say I am going to concern with myself with realistic possibilities. Neither is magically turning themselves into the pitchers they were several years ago.

Remind me where Zambrano is pitching now?

They don't have to turn themselves into the pitchers they were several years ago.

That is not what anyone has even remotely said.

I said MARGINALLY back to form.

And you still have never answered the question of what would bring more value back at the deadline, a starter or a closer.

It is ok, we all know it is the answer you don't want to have to give.

And remind me again who was the better pitcher last year? Zambrano or Volstad?

Remind me again were Volstad is pitching this year? He already has been demoted after sucking big time again in Colorado.

 

[KBisBack!]

A great trade? You are fucking joking right?

Let's see, you think that trading Zambrano for Volstad was a great trade and that Marmol for Haren would have been a bad trade?

That about sums it up.

Dumb. Really, really, really dumb.

 

[dabynsky]

They don't have to turn themselves into the pitchers they were several years ago.

That is not what anyone has even remotely said.

I said MARGINALLY back to form.

And you still have never answered the question of what would bring more value back at the deadline, a starter or a closer.

It is ok, we all know it is the answer you don't want to have to give.

And remind me again who was the better pitcher last year? Zambrano or Volstad?

Remind me again were Volstad is pitching this year? He already has been demoted after sucking big time again in Colorado.

I misread the word marginally.

So neither player is contributing at the big league level right now. Awesome.

 

[KBisBack!]

I misread the word marginally.

So neither player is contributing at the big league level right now. Awesome.

No worries.

But this isn't about right now.

It is about what they provided last year.

The Cubs paid all of Zambrano's contract and Volstad provided far worse results.

it would have been better had the Cubs just stuck him in the bullpen or even just paid him to sit at home over what Volstad provided the team last year.

That is the point.

 

[dabynsky]

No worries.

But this isn't about right now.

It is about what they provided last year.

The Cubs paid all of Zambrano's contract and Volstad provided far worse results.

it would have been better had the Cubs just stuck him in the bullpen or even just paid him to sit at home over what Volstad provided the team last year.

That is the point.

And the point remains that neither player is a factor for the teams involved in the trade this year and neither made either team significantly better last year. If Zambrano's role was a middle reliever than I don't see the hand wringing about losing him.

 

[KBisBack!]

And the point remains that neither player is a factor for the teams involved in the trade this year and neither made either team significantly better last year. If Zambrano's role was a middle reliever than I don't see the hand wringing about losing him.

Because you paid him all the money and got significantly worse production from the player brought in.

Was it the move that kept the team from making the playoffs? Of course not.

But that still doesn't mean it wasn't a terrible, terrible move.

It is ridiculous to say that because neither player is on the team this year that what they produced last year doesn't matter. It mattered last year.

Volstad was freaking brutal last year. One of probably the three worst pitchers in all of baseball last year. There is no way to defend that.

 

[dabynsky]

Because you paid him all the money and got significantly worse production from the player brought in.

Was it the move that kept the team from making the playoffs? Of course not.

But that still doesn't mean it wasn't a terrible, terrible move.

It is ridiculous to say that because neither player is on the team this year that what they produced last year doesn't matter. It mattered last year.

Volstad was freaking brutal last year. One of probably the three worst pitchers in all of baseball last year. There is no way to defend that.

Who is defending Volstad or the trade? I simply don't understand being upset about giving up crap in Zambrano. The fact that neither is a factor at this point is absolutely important when considering how pointless whining about this trade is.

 

[KBisBack!]

Who is defending Volstad or the trade?

Quite a few people are. Maybe not you, but many have.

I simply don't understand being upset about giving up crap in Zambrano.

It is ridiculous to say it is ok in giving away Zambrano and that Volstad's performance didn't matter and then turn around and whine and cry about Soriano's contract.

Not saying that YOU are doing it, but many others will whine and cry about what a waste Soriano is and then also turn around and say it is ok to have wasted $18M on one of the three worst pitchers in all of baseball last year.

The fact that neither is a factor at this point is absolutely important when considering how pointless whining about this trade is.

No.

Because the now doesn't change what happened last year. They were both on one year deals.

Pointing out that the trade was bad for last year is an absolutely valid point. It is irrelevant what they are doing now as neither was under contract for this year.

 

[dabynsky]

Quite a few people are. Maybe not you, but many have.

So why address that point to me?

It is ridiculous to say it is ok in giving away Zambrano and that Volstad's performance didn't matter and then turn around and whine and cry about Soriano's contract.

Not saying that YOU are doing it, but many others will whine and cry about what a waste Soriano is and then also turn around and say it is ok to have wasted $18M on one of the three worst pitchers in all of baseball last year.

Here are some of my thoughts on Soriano for future reference. http://worldseriesdreaming.com/2012/08/10/soriano-and-the-hawk/

No.

Because the now doesn't change what happened last year. They were both on one year deals.

Pointing out that the trade was bad for last year is an absolutely valid point. It is irrelevant what they are doing now as neither was under contract for this year.

Well since we like to get techincal Chris Volstad was on a one year deal but is still in arbitration years so the Cubs could have kept him if he didn't really suck. You continue to ignore the larger issue that is that neither would have been a factor for the Cubs last year and neither is a factor now. Carlos Zambrano sucks and the fact that the Cubs got someone who sucked more back for him a year ago isn't going to cost me any sleep.

 

[Willrust]

But somehow those medical 'red flags' were not a concern for a team with less resources available than the Cubs, that went to the NLCS last year and was many people's preseason pick to win the World Series to sign and give a rotation spot to.

But somehow it would have been dumb for a 100 loss team with more money to do the same thing?

Really???

Actually, I am sure there was language in the contract where the Nationals could have backed out of the deal if Haren had any injury issue with the hip. This is something that could not have been done in trade with the Cubs due to the fact that Haren would have been taken with the contract that was already in place.

 

[Willrust]

Im hungover so I dont feel like looking it up, but Im pretty sure Hoyer took some of the blame for the Marmol leaking it. I remember reading he said that he should have been clear that he had not been traded yet. That ultimately did not end the deal. Also, even though Haren hasnt been great. He still has been better than Marmol. Also, I would bet my left nut that Haren is worth more at the trade deadline then Marmol is going to be for the Cubs. I dont understand axing the deal when you basically just went and signed a guy who had bigger health concerns then Haren. Baker was coming off TJ. I know statistics say they come back, but it is always a risk. At least Haren would be in our rotation. Who knows when Baker will come back or if he will even pitch this year. Theo and them gambled that they had fixed Marmol and could get his value up more but it didnt work out. They should have paid attention for the past 3 years. Im not beating them down for it, but its a head scratcher to me.

A #5 SP likely isn't worth more than a 7th, 8th or 9th inning bullpen guy. Most playoff teams don't even use a #5 SP in their playoff rotation.

 

[Willrust]

Let's see, you think that trading Zambrano for Volstad was a great trade and that Marmol for Haren would have been a bad trade?

That about sums it up.

Dumb. Really, really, really dumb.

Where did I say Z for Volstad was a great trade? Nowhere! Where did I say Marmol for Haren would have been a bad trade? Nowhere!

When in doubt, make shit up. That's the KB way!

 

[Willrust]

Quite a few people are. Maybe not you, but many have.



It is ridiculous to say it is ok in giving away Zambrano and that Volstad's performance didn't matter and then turn around and whine and cry about Soriano's contract.

Not saying that YOU are doing it, but many others will whine and cry about what a waste Soriano is and then also turn around and say it is ok to have wasted $18M on one of the three worst pitchers in all of baseball last year.



No.

Because the now doesn't change what happened last year. They were both on one year deals.

Pointing out that the trade was bad for last year is an absolutely valid point. It is irrelevant what they are doing now as neither was under contract for this year.

It is ridiculous to say that keeping Zambrano would have made any difference. Hell, for all we know, given how bad the team was last year; Zambrano could have gone on a murder rampage after one of Castro's errors last year. For all we know, the Cubs saved lives by getting Big Z out of the Windy City.

BTW, just using some of your bullshit logic... See, I am learning from the master of bullshit!!! Thanks KB.

 

[The Bandit]

Where did I say Z for Volstad was a great trade? Nowhere! Where did I say Marmol for Haren would have been a bad trade? Nowhere!

When in doubt, make shit up. That's the KB way!

Nobody ever did he misquotes everything. It was a horrible trade that had to be done. Z was done in Chicago it was obvious the guy couldn't be allowed back after walking out and every other fiasco.

 

[SilenceS]

A #5 SP likely isn't worth more than a 7th, 8th or 9th inning bullpen guy. Most playoff teams don't even use a #5 SP in their playoff rotation.

You have to get to the post season first. Haren is a proven pitcher in this league. You can not seriously argue his value being less than Marmol. Also, why would the Cubs ask for a bullpen guy. They would ask for a minor leaguer. Haren at this present time would fetch more than Marmol.

 

[The Bandit]

You have to get to the post season first. Haren is a proven pitcher in this league. You can not seriously argue his value being less than Marmol. Also, why would the Cubs ask for a bullpen guy. They would ask for a minor leaguer. Haren at this present time would fetch more than Marmol.

No doubt, he's definitely proven more then Marmol. Ie. can chew innings consistently and won't rely on the backstop as his catcher.

 

[Willrust]

You have to get to the post season first. Haren is a proven pitcher in this league. You can not seriously argue his value being less than Marmol. Also, why would the Cubs ask for a bullpen guy. They would ask for a minor leaguer. Haren at this present time would fetch more than Marmol.

Silence, in regards to the bullpen, I am saying that a team would likely value a 7th, 8th or 9th inning bullpen guy, Marmol, more than a 5th starter, Haren. Most teams going for the playoffs would rather upgrade the back end of their bullpen than to attain a marginal upgrade at the #5 SP. You can go back through history and find crazy deals done for back end bullpen pitchers (Larry Anderson for Jeff Bagwell screams), but you cannot find crazy deals done for a #5 SP. The Cubs got a Travis Wood and 2 prospects for Sean Marshall. Just 2 years before, they got Blake DeWitt & 2 non-top ten prospects (Kyle Smit & Brett Wallach) from the Dodgers for Ted Lilly & Ryan Theriot (hell, only 1 of those prospects was a top 20 Dodger prospect). Also, Ted Lilly was statistically superior in 2009 & 2010 to Dan Haren's 2012 & 2013!

So, were the Reds stupid for giving up more for a back end bullpen pitcher, or were the Cubs even more stupid for getting extremely low value for a quality back of the rotation SP?