1994 Bulls vs 2011 Bulls in 7 game series

[clonetrooper264]

Noone has been able to come thru in every situation heff. Not even jordan. This is where your missing the point. Like I said earlier. The standard you set for pippen is beyond reachable. Take away pippen 23 pts and the bulls loose. End of discussion. Hell in 95, when the bulls were elimianted by the magic, pippen played great, it was jordan that messed up. Does that mean he's not clutch cuz of a bad game? Magic cost the lakers aa championship in 84, bird played like shit in 85 or 83 I believe. Noone is above mistakes. Why are pippens magnified more than others? Cuz he didn't lead a team to a championship that in all honeslty overachieved and reached a level that in all honestly had no business being at to begin with?

I mean, if your really gonna hold 94 against pippen that much then what your saying is that the bulls could and should've won without jordan. And in essence jordan wasn't really needed according to you, which obviously couldn't be further from the truth.

You're taking it a bit far man. He's not saying that Pippen wasn't important or anything. Just that when it comes down to the final minutes of a close game (take pressure free throws to tie or take the lead for example) Pippen probably wouldn't deliver. Compare that to another clutch player who would probably make them. The point is not that Pippen couldn't do it, it's that you wouldn't expect him to.

 

[97Bulls]

Did you not read my other post? I acknowledged that Pippen had his share of clutch baskets, but he wasn't the kind of guy you would always go to for a clutch shot. And don't give me playing behind MJ stuff because the fact that Jackson drew up a play for Kukoc instead of Pippen means more than Pippen being buttsore.

He had michael jordan on his team for 90% of his prime. I don't believe that pippen is being defamed for one play. And another thing you guys miss is the fact that jackson had a rep for going to other guys for last shot plays. He went to fisher in 04, jordan played decoy in 93 when paxson hit the game winning shot. Him not going to his best player for a last shot was far from an anomoly

 

[houheffna]

Noone has been able to come thru in every situation heff. Not even jordan. This is where your missing the point. Like I said earlier. The standard you set for pippen is beyond reachable. Take away pippen 23 pts and the bulls loose. End of discussion. Hell in 95, when the bulls were elimianted by the magic, pippen played great, it was jordan that messed up. Does that mean he's not clutch cuz of a bad game? Magic cost the lakers aa championship in 84, bird played like shit in 85 or 83 I believe. Noone is above mistakes. Why are pippens magnified more than others? Cuz he didn't lead a team to a championship that in all honeslty overachieved and reached a level that in all honestly had no business being at to begin with?

I mean, if your really gonna hold 94 against pippen that much then what your saying is that the bulls could and should've won without jordan. And in essence jordan wasn't really needed according to you, which obviously couldn't be further from the truth.

Jordan's JOB was to handle clutch situations...he was great at it...that is why the Bulls would win 6 titles. I am not looking at 1994 alone...I am looking at his career. And Bird and Magic didn't quit on their teams in the clutch either. People try and fail, that's human...

Your last paragraph is crappy man. I am not holding any one year against Pippen, over his career, he was not someone you would go to in the clutch like Jordan, Miller or even Ben Gordon. That wasn't his forte. Does that mean he was somehow a lesser player than Gordon or Miller? No. It means he wasn't the guy who could hit a big shot like those guys could. Kukoc constantly showed abilities in the clutch. He was totally unfazed. Pippen wanted to be that guy...but he just couldn't get it done.

I would take Pippen over Kukoc in a heartbeat on my basketball team, but there are dozens of players I would rather take a clutch shot than Pippen. That was my point all along.

 

[97Bulls]

You're taking it a bit far man. He's not saying that Pippen wasn't important or anything. Just that when it comes down to the final minutes of a close game (take pressure free throws to tie or take the lead for example) Pippen probably wouldn't deliver. Compare that to another clutch player who would probably make them. The point is not that Pippen couldn't do it, it's that you wouldn't expect him to.

No, he's saying pippen wasn't that important to the point that he's easily replaceable. And he's trying to use pippens mishaps as proof. I never said pippen didn't mess up, I never said pippen was the greatets ever, but im confident that with enough talent, he'd be able to lead a team to a championship.

The only problem I see with pippen and the scoring thing. Is that from what I saw, if he didn't have it, offensively, he didn't force the issue. If yoou can call that a problem. Dirk and kobe have lead teams to championships shooting 42%. They just took alot of shots. That wasn't pippens game. But he would make up for it by getting his team involved, and playing stout defense.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Pippen doesn't play on that 1996 team and they still probably win the Championship. Jordan probably averages 38 and Kukoc around 22 (and tack on about 2 for everybody else).

Scottie was not this God of a player. He was a solid all-star player, who was a lock to get there every season but was not a legitimate MVP candidate.

Pippen had like 2 game-winning shots in his career. One was a fluke shot off Jordan getting blocked by Ewing. And another was a dunk off of a stripped ball Chalbert Cheney or Tracey Murray stripped away from Jordan in the 1st round game 3 in 1997. He did not have a consistent jump shot or move to the basket unless it was in transition. He simply wasn't that great of a scorer. Nowhere near those other guys. He made great defensive plays at the end of games but not offensive ones.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Toni Kukoc is a million times more clutch than Scottie Pippen.

 

[97Bulls]

Jordan's JOB was to handle clutch situations...he was great at it...that is why the Bulls would win 6 titles. I am not looking at 1994 alone...I am looking at his career. And Bird and Magic didn't quit on their teams in the clutch either. People try and fail, that's human...

Your last paragraph is crappy man. I am not holding any one year against Pippen, over his career, he was not someone you would go to in the clutch like Jordan, Miller or even Ben Gordon. That wasn't his forte. Does that mean he was somehow a lesser player than Gordon or Miller? No. It means he wasn't the guy who could hit a big shot like those guys could. Kukoc constantly showed abilities in the clutch. He was totally unfazed. Pippen wanted to be that guy...but he just couldn't get it done.

I would take Pippen over Kukoc in a heartbeat on my basketball team, but there are dozens of players I would rather take a clutch shot than Pippen. That was my point all along.

That's fine. There's alot of players id take to hit a last second shot too. But to lead a team to a championship? Let's be honest, 99% of the players that have lead a team to a championship did it with the best team behind them. And plenty of years to correct their flaws. Pippen never had that luxery.

 

[houheffna]

No, he's saying pippen wasn't that important to the point that he's easily replaceable. And he's trying to use pippens mishaps as proof. I never said pippen didn't mess up, I never said pippen was the greatets ever, but im confident that with enough talent, he'd be able to lead a team to a championship.

The only problem I see with pippen and the scoring thing. Is that from what I saw, if he didn't have it, offensively, he didn't force the issue. If yoou can call that a problem. Dirk and kobe have lead teams to championships shooting 42%. They just took alot of shots. That wasn't pippens game. But he would make up for it by getting his team involved, and playing stout defense.

Dude..get the F--- out of here putting words in my mouth. Show me where I said Pippen wasn't important. I pointed out one facet of his game that he struggled at and you are the one taking things out of context.

I don't know about what Pippen would have done...I am talking about what happened. Paxson, Kerr, Kukoc, B.J....all showed they had the ability to make big shots, with or without Jordan. Pippen struggled. That was my point. I never said he went 0-3000 in clutch opportunities, I said that the Bulls had other options besides him, and Jackson used them.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

i dont understand how this pippen clutch stuff came up...he was never a designated player to make a basket in those kind of situations......

either way, clutch is the not the ultimate deciding factor in why pippen was never the best player in the league...HIS OFFENSIVE GAME WAS NOT GOOD ENOUGH....he was a great defender...maybe one of the best of all time...but even as the #1 option on a team he was not a dominant two side player like jordan was or olajuwon or robinson....he was a good passer partly contributed to the triangle offense and a fantastic rebounder...yes he was a jack-of-all-trades of sorts and he was efficient offensively(not as efficient as jordan but relatively efficient) but he was not the kind of player that can carry a team offensively...

 

[houheffna]

That's fine. There's alot of players id take to hit a last second shot too. But to lead a team to a championship? Let's be honest, 99% of the players that have lead a team to a championship did it with the best team behind them. And plenty of years to correct their flaws. Pippen never had that luxery.

That has nothing to do with his ability to score in the clutch. None. I am bringing up other Bulls who displayed that ability. None of them were good enough to lead teams anywhere, they were just better in those moments than Pippen was. That is ALL I said.

 

[DCguy]

Scottie himself said that he was ok offensively but took great pride in his defensive ability. He also wanted to play point guard in the league so he didn't have that scorers instinct to take over offensively late in games. That's why he wanted Michael to comeback in the first place. So Michael can handle the scoring and so Scottie can go back to doing everything else, and chip in with points when the opportunity presented itself.

 

[97Bulls]

Pippen doesn't play on that 1996 team and they still probably win the Championship. Jordan probably averages 38 and Kukoc around 22 (and tack on about 2 for everybody else).

Scottie was not this God of a player. He was a solid all-star player, who was a lock to get there every season but was not a legitimate MVP candidate.

Pippen had like 2 game-winning shots in his career. One was a fluke shot off Jordan getting blocked by Ewing. And another was a dunk off of a stripped ball Chalbert Cheney or Tracey Murray stripped away from Jordan in the 1st round game 3 in 1997. He did not have a consistent jump shot or move to the basket unless it was in transition. He simply wasn't that great of a scorer. Nowhere near those other guys. He made great defensive plays at the end of games but not offensive ones.

He hit more GW shots than that. Those are just the most popular. And I know you've said pippen wasn't an mvp caliber player, but he was top 3 out of 450 players. But im sure me typing this is worthless cuz its gonna you'll convieniently ignore this statement.

 

[Rick]

Not sure if this was done yet, didn't feel like going through 36 pages to find out but here we go...

Game 1: WhatIfSports.com: Fantasy Sports Simulation -- SimLeague Basketball Boxscore

Game 2: WhatIfSports.com: Fantasy Sports Simulation -- SimLeague Basketball Boxscore

Game 3: WhatIfSports.com: Fantasy Sports Simulation -- SimLeague Basketball Boxscore

Game 4: WhatIfSports.com: Fantasy Sports Simulation -- SimLeague Basketball Boxscore

Game 5: WhatIfSports.com: Fantasy Sports Simulation -- SimLeague Basketball Boxscore

1994 Bulls win series 4-1

Close thread

 

[nwfisch]

40 posts per page FTW

 

[houheffna]

He hit more GW shots than that. Those are just the most popular. And I know you've said pippen wasn't an mvp caliber player, but he was top 3 out of 450 players. But im sure me typing this is worthless cuz its gonna you'll convieniently ignore this statement.

He may have but it wasn't like the "Dirk isn't clutch" arguments that I faced concerning Nowtizki. I have seen Dirk hit tons of big shots. I just don't recall Pippen hitting a bunch of shots like that. He was a guy who shot miserably from the free throw line and was mediocre from long range. I just don't see how saying that Pippen wasn't a sound option in clutch moments deviates from his game. I just don't see it.

 

[Glide2keva]

Not sure if this was done yet, didn't feel like going through 36 pages to find out but here we go...

Game 1: WhatIfSports.com: Fantasy Sports Simulation -- SimLeague Basketball Boxscore

Game 2: WhatIfSports.com: Fantasy Sports Simulation -- SimLeague Basketball Boxscore

Game 3: WhatIfSports.com: Fantasy Sports Simulation -- SimLeague Basketball Boxscore

Game 4: WhatIfSports.com: Fantasy Sports Simulation -- SimLeague Basketball Boxscore

Game 5: WhatIfSports.com: Fantasy Sports Simulation -- SimLeague Basketball Boxscore

1994 Bulls win series 4-1

Close thread

I at least gave this Bulls team 2 games.

 

[97Bulls]

i dont understand how this pippen clutch stuff came up...he was never a designated player to make a basket in those kind of situations......

either way, clutch is the not the ultimate deciding factor in why pippen was never the best player in the league...HIS OFFENSIVE GAME WAS NOT GOOD ENOUGH....he was a great defender...maybe one of the best of all time...but even as the #1 option on a team he was not a dominant two side player like jordan was or olajuwon or robinson....he was a good passer partly contributed to the triangle offense and a fantastic rebounder...yes he was a jack-of-all-trades of sorts and he was efficient offensively(not as efficient as jordan but relatively efficient) but he was not the kind of player that can carry a team offensively...

I think what your doing is conflicting style with ability. When you say his offensive game wasn't good enough, good enough for what? To lead the league in scoring? Fine. To lead a team to a championship? I beg to differ. There been plent of guys that were super scorers but lead their teams to championships. Look at magic. Kareem was the number 1 option. Then later worthy. Ben wallace was the best player on the 04 pistons, garnett with the 08 celtics. Bill russell. Its just a style.

Dominique wilkins was a better scorer than magic but magic is considered a better player.

Bill russell used to whip wilt chamberlains ass every year. And this doesn't just hold true for basketball

Who's better between tom brady who doesn't have a canon for an arm but is versitle, and warren moon who could throw the ball 80 yards?

How bout greg maddox who wasn't gonna over power you, but had a variety of pitches, and nolan ryan. Who had a 100 mile an hour fast ball.

Who would be considered the better scorer in boxing terms muhommed ali or mike tyson?

See what I mean? So to say pippen wasn't a great scorer is meaningless. He was a great player.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Not sure if this was done yet, didn't feel like going through 36 pages to find out but here we go...

Game 1: WhatIfSports.com: Fantasy Sports Simulation -- SimLeague Basketball Boxscore

Game 2: WhatIfSports.com: Fantasy Sports Simulation -- SimLeague Basketball Boxscore

Game 3: WhatIfSports.com: Fantasy Sports Simulation -- SimLeague Basketball Boxscore

Game 4: WhatIfSports.com: Fantasy Sports Simulation -- SimLeague Basketball Boxscore

Game 5: WhatIfSports.com: Fantasy Sports Simulation -- SimLeague Basketball Boxscore

1994 Bulls win series 4-1

Close thread

hmmm thats interesting:

btw i did a simulation of 93-94 bulls vs. 10-11 bulls on whatifsports.com

WhatIfSports.com: Fantasy Sports Simulation -- SimLeague Basketball Boxscore
game 1:10-11 bulls win 102-93

WhatIfSports.com: Fantasy Sports Simulation -- SimLeague Basketball Boxscore
game 2:10-11 bulls win 105-92

WhatIfSports.com: Fantasy Sports Simulation -- SimLeague Basketball Boxscore
game 3:10-11 bulls win 115-108

WhatIfSports.com: Fantasy Sports Simulation -- SimLeague Basketball Boxscore
game 4:10-11 bulls win 107-99

now do i think this simulator is void of fallacies and inaccuracies? absolutely not(underrates defense..shown by the high scoring of the 10-11 bulls despite being defensively based)....

still those simulations cannot be completely dismissed...10-11 bulls won 4-0...does that mean they'd be that dominating over the 93-94 bulls? no

but the 10-11 bulls are a fantastic defensive team not to mention they have a good frontline and the MVP

 

[97Bulls]

He may have but it wasn't like the "Dirk isn't clutch" arguments that I faced concerning Nowtizki. I have seen Dirk hit tons of big shots. I just don't recall Pippen hitting a bunch of shots like that. He was a guy who shot miserably from the free throw line and was mediocre from long range. I just don't see how saying that Pippen wasn't a sound option in clutch moments deviates from his game. I just don't see it.

How many times really were the bulls in a position like dirk and the mavs? And dirk has been the man for 13 years. He didn't have a jordan on his team.

 

[Glide2keva]

The problem with people is that they have become obsessed with individual stats and focus less on what someone does for the team in its' entirety.

Because Scottie didn't lead the league in any particular category, people can easily dismiss his impact on games. He wasn't a big scorer, but he scored when we need it. He was exactly what those Bulls teams needed, and what Jordan needed in a second guy. He may not have had the most clutch offensive game, but remember him hitting big shots (Game 6 against the Knicks in 93, Game 6 against the Knicks in 94, Indiana regular season in Indy, etc.) His clutch factor can be measured on the defensive end and his ability to defend multiple positions when his team needed him to.

But let's underrate him because he didn't score 30ppg and average 15apg.

I'm so sick of these wanna be ESPN analysts, go work at the mothership where you can get paid to sound like a moron (Screamin' A. Smith, Skip Bayless, etc.)