1994 Bulls vs 2011 Bulls in 7 game series

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Gustavus Adolphus

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His MVP's were pretty much handed to him. ESPN hyped him both of those seasons and never included anyone else in the discussions. They pretty much crowned him from the start of the season, both times.
2008-09 MVP Voting
Lebron was the leader of the team that had the most wins in the league that year. Sounds familiar.

2009-10 MVP Voting

Not sure where they were in terms of best record, but again Cleveland had over 60 wins and Lebron was the leader of that team. Again, that all sounds familiar.
 

Glide2keva

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According to the stats I posted, Lebron is a better rebounder, passer, and shooter.
See the drivel you quoted from the number one lebron fan? No one said all he does is dunk. DC Guy said that all he does is the same half-tomahawk dunk and ESPN and TNT act like they've never seen it before.

I guess comprehension isn't important in school anymore.

And comparing Shaq to lebron is just plain stupid.
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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I was at that game you were referring to. Pippen wanted to take the last shot and was mad that he was going to be used as a decoy.

I was working right behind the rim Kukoc made the shot on and in some highlights, you can see me.

Pippen felt disrespected and unappreciated when the play wasn't drawn up for him. It was an honest emotion. It made him better as a player. I don't think he makes that dunk on Ewing later in the series if that play doesn't go down the way it did. He had to earn his respect back and it lit a fire under him and he played with fire and passion after that.

James being scared in times of adversity, that causes him to stand around and chuck up three's, is an honest emotion too.

What Pippen did was worse.

The main difference between LeBron and Pippen in crunch time is that we know LeBron has it in him to make clutch shots/plays. Pippen really didn't.
 

Gustavus Adolphus

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None of those guys came in with the amount of hype that lebron did either. So yes, his stats are empty. lebron's barometer is rings, nothing less. We all know it. Let's not act like it isn't.

ESPN has made it that way and everyone bought the hype.
So you shouldn't take it out on Lebron that ESPN made the hype the way it was.
 

CODE_BLUE56

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That's who he is. And it's a fair knock on him as a player. But, to me, that's not quitting. That's the reason he went to play with Wade and Bosh.

eh its not necessarily quitting...but its not wanting the spotlight..and for a player that wants to be known as an all time great..thats not the kind of mindset you want...

Iverson is one of my all time favorites. T-mac was good for a few years, but fell off fast due to injuries.

I'd take them both over lebron in their primes

says the guy that said scoring is overrated...t mac and iverson are not as overall productive as lebron(especially on defense)
 

Gustavus Adolphus

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If it wasn't for ESPN, I'd probably like lebron, but then his arrogance and douchiness would turn me right off. The difference between lebron and Rose is, lebron is expected to win titles, Rose isn't.

I disagree with that. His numbers suck and people can make an argument for Pau in at least the first one. What I mean by defining moment is Jordan's shrug, the switch hands, Dr. J's under the rim shot against the lakers, or his Rock the baby to sleep dunk, Magic's baby Sky hook.

Plays like that.

Kobe has none of them.
Rose was certainly expected to win a title this year. How did that turn out for him?

In RE: Kobe. I notice that you don't put Larry Bird in your list of examples....does that mean Larry Bird doesn't have a 'defining' moment?
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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eh its not necessarily quitting...but its not wanting the spotlight..and for a player that wants to be known as an all time great..thats not the kind of mindset you want...

Agreed. LeBron embraced this hype to the point where you have to point at his common sense.
 

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LeBron guarded Rose at the end of the 4th quarter, how is that shutting him down? People are acting like Rose still didn't get to the basket and hit layups because he did. He missed a jump shot in which LeBron just stood there and didn't even put his hand up and that's a shutdown. lol. LeBron just funneled Rose to his help well when he did guard him, which wasn't often. If he guarded him the whole game and Rose didn't score well, than I would agree with him "shutting him down", but since he didn't, I don't see it as a shut down at all. But again that's just me.
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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Rose did get shut down in the final minutes but it wasn't by only LeBron. It was by the whole Heat defense.
 

Gustavus Adolphus

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See the drivel you quoted from the number one lebron fan? No one said all he does is dunk. DC Guy said that all he does is the same half-tomahawk dunk and ESPN and TNT act like they've never seen it before.

I guess comprehension isn't important in school anymore.

And comparing Shaq to lebron is just plain stupid.
I didn't compare Shaq to Lebron, so I don't know why you bring it up in response to me.
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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As if the 'The Shrug' isn't showboating at all either.

Haha, well, Jordan didn't rile up the crowd like a lot of players do. I think he was more surprised with himself than anything else.
 

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Rose did get shut down in the final minutes but it wasn't by only LeBron. It was by the whole Heat defense.

Exactly, the Heat played good team defense on him, Chalmers, Wade, and yes LeBron. But people act like LeBron was guarding him from the first quarter till the end and just completely took him out the game. That's far from the truth. The Heat as a team did a good job of defending Rose, they, people can say shut him down including LeBron in that equation, but it wasn't solely LeBron. He was just the guy they put on him at the end of games.
 

Gustavus Adolphus

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eh its not necessarily quitting...but its not wanting the spotlight..and for a player that wants to be known as an all time great..thats not the kind of mindset you want...
Semantics really. The least you could say for Lebron is that he was on the court.
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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Exactly, the Heat played good team defense on him, Chalmers, Wade, and yes LeBron. But people act like LeBron was guarding him from the first quarter till the end and just completely took him out the game. That's far from the truth. The Heat as a team did a good job of defending Rose, they, people can say shut him down including LeBron in that equation, but it wasn't solely LeBron. He was just the guy they put on him at the end of games.

Yep. Granted- James did a better job on him than anyone else. But we can't just ignore that he had weak-side help. The Heat players were still trapping Rose when he tried to iso.
 

CODE_BLUE56

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Rose did get shut down in the final minutes but it wasn't by only LeBron. It was by the whole Heat defense.

true...regardless..lebron is a great defender...

‎51 players all arguably better than Pippen (no order):
1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Bill Russell
4. Shaquille O’Neal
5. Oscar Robertson
6. Magic Johnson
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
8. Tim Duncan
9. Larry Bird
10. Kobe Bryant
11. Jerry West
12. Elgin Baylor
13. Hakeem Olajuwon
14. Bob Petit
15. Moses Malone
16. Julius Erving
17. John Havlicek
18. Karl Malone
19. Isiah Thomas
20. Charles Barkley
21. Dwight Howard
22. John Stockton
23. Elvin Hayes
24. Bob Cousy
25. David Robinson
26. Kevin McHale
27. Tracy McGrady
28. Jason Kidd
29. Grant Hill
30. Kevin Garnett
31. LeBron James
32. Willis Reed
33. Wes Unseld
34. Nate Thurmond
35. Dolph Schayes
36. Walt Frazier
37. Patrick Ewing
38. Jerry Lucas
39. Gary Payton
40. Allen Iverson
41. Billy Cunningham
42. Clyde Drexler
43. Dominique Wilkins
44. Dave Cowens
45. George Gervin
46. Bob McAdoo
47. Earl Monroe
48. Dirk Nowitzki
49. Dwyane Wade
50. Tiny Archibald
51. Paul Pierce

the ones i've bolded i disagree with(there are some others i also disagree with but not as strongly;mostly players from the 50s-70s that had stats a little distorted)
 

Gustavus Adolphus

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Haha, well, Jordan didn't rile up the crowd like a lot of players do. I think he was more surprised with himself than anything else.
I think if there a Portland message board, everybody would be calling it showboating. Again, it's semantics, but after hitting the sixth three pointer, the 'Gee, look what I what I did - golly' shrug and look on his face can be construed as showboating.
 

Glide2keva

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Pippen's D is better I agree..but lets not act like lebron is a slouch..he shut down rose in the ECF
lebron 6' 8", Rose 6' 2", he should shut him down.


Lebron is basically a point forward...his IQ and passing ability are the best I've ever seen for an SF...Scottie isn't a slouch in that department but Lebron is better
They invented the term Point forward to describe Scottie.

Lebron is 6'8 270 pounds can pass like a PG, shoots pretty well, can drive to the basket with either hand, can run with unbelievable speed and agility, finishes with power to the basket (reminds me a lot of Wilkins and Kemp), plays great defense (good shot blocker and ball stealer). Again Pippen is not a slouch, but lebron was the best player in high school and could make an NBA roster as a sophomore in HS, THAT'S talent.
I do remember him being called lebrick so shooting, I don't know. All the things you describe are a result of him being more physically gifted.


:rolleyes: because he had two fantastic seasons and led the cavs to 60 win seasons(i think him playing with Coach K really helped him take his game to an even higher level)...who else would you give the MVP too?
Maybe, but before the season started or ended, the debate was lebron or Kobe and that's it and it was like that all season. Like I said, they were pretty much handed to him by default, like Dieon Sanders' DPOY award in Dallas.

that isnt a shot at me calling people idiots because usually i dont:shifty: anyway i agree to disagree
No, that was for someone else. I was just showing how I can disagree and not resort insults, unlike some blowhard around here.

True..but you still have to look at how the player performed overall in the playoffs and in his career...i dont like calling a player great because they have a lot of championships resulting from being on a powerhouse team..there's more than that(although i do agree pippen's finals performances are better than lebron's right now...i think lebron will have a couple of titles before its all said and done tho...difference between lebron and pippen is lebron is 26..and pippen is retired)
I don't mean a thing without the ring.

mine too..but probably not as much as yours...you're entitled to your opinion
They should

Kobe has played as well as anyone in his 7 finals appearances. As much as I hate him and think he's a bit overrated, he's been clutch and a leader in the finals. Who cares about one defining moment? seriously, Kobe has been great in the finals. Your other statements I can somewhat understand but this is a little ridiculous
Kobe's career number sin the finals are pretty much equal to Jordan's worst Finals series. SO I wouldn't call him great in the finals when I can't even recall any one game from his finals appearances.


btw you know what makes a really great player...a guy that shoots 0-10 in the first half..comes back in the 2nd...keeps shooting and wills his team to win..thats what kobe and dirk and many others do/have done..i am still waiting for lebron to come out his shell and really compete like that
lebron isn't that guy. Never was

Disagree. lebron is the best player on the planet. One crappy finals doesn't change everything(he barely missed a beat sharing the ball with wade and bosh and he decimated the bulls in the ECF)
How about 2 crappy Finals, does that count? They were expected to beat the Bulls, no surprise there. The Finals is where it counts. Wade and Bosh showed up, lebron didn't.

he's still the best...he just has some issues with finals. It's really perplexing..but he still is the best imo..look at the whole body of work
So his constant failures on the biggest of games has no bearing on him being the best to you? Even though he fails EVERY YEAR!?

he does get a lot of attention by the media and other but he's a damn good player.he isn't Jordan, but he's the best the NBA has right now
Then the league needs to look elsewhere, because lebron isn't it.

Sorry.
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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true...regardless..lebron is a great defender...



the ones i've bolded i disagree with(there are some others i also disagree with but not as strongly;mostly players from the 50s-70s that had stats a little distorted

I pretty much would take Pippen over McGrady or Pierce too. And maybe Iverson half the time, too.

I would have a hard time taking Pippen over Hill in his prime though.

If I needed both a SF and a PG... it's a tough choice between Pippen and Kidd. If 2002 Kidd had his 2011 jump-shot than I'd for sure go with Jason. But that's not the case.
 
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