2013-14 NHL Season Discussion

[Shantz My Pants]

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Grimson" data-cid="217639" data-time="1387810644">


lol</p></blockquote>
It's like the guy wants this to be soccer. Anything done physically he rants and raves about. Sounds like Variables ideal NHL is the way the All Star game is played.


I took him off ignore because people quote him and I see the BS anyways. Wish that could be fixed.

 

[Shantz My Pants]

Wilson's shoulder went into Schenns back/back shoulder. That along with Schenn turning away applied momentum to go into the boards awkwardly.


Only thing Wilson could of done was pulled up and let Schenn skate bye. Now Wilson goes back to the bench and gets an earful for not playing the body like the F1 is supposed to.

 

[Variable]

You know what would've and did cancel out any move Schenn could've done? Wilson's 6'4, 200+ lb body crashing into him at that rate of speed. He was going into the boards awkwardly no matter what he did.</p>


 </p>


To say that the only two options Wilson has is to either let Schenn skate away or bulldoze him into the boards is crazy. We see players like Toews, Sharp,  and younger guys like Saad and even guys like fucking Bollig every goddamn game able to make an effective, physical play in that kind of situation a thousand times better and more responsible than Wilson did here. You can't build up that kind of head of steam and charge into a guy by the boards. You're the one who always preaches about respecting your fellow players and how there's little of it in the game today, well here you go Trev, this shoud've been exhibit 1A for you. Wilson put himself in that position, he decided he wanted to make a big hit and he didn't care about Schenn not being able to see him. </p>

 

[Shantz My Pants]

The respect I'm talking about isn't involved in this. That's a completely different argument that we've already beaten to death.


Wilson was coming in with speed to help out in the corner. At that point on a forecheck he's F2 who goes for puck. The puck broke out of the play when he was in the faceoff circle and he's now become F1 and his job is to take body. That means his task changed within 10 feet of Schenn. He wasn't skating into the zone with the thought of nailing Schenn. That designation came into play when he hit the faceoff dot.


Was it excessive? Sure but at that point there was nothing else he could do that would prevent that hit. He couldn't slow down, shit he was coasting when he hit the faceoff circle.


The respect part comes in after Schenn gets blasted and Wilson has to answer for his actions.

 

[LordKOTL]

Ya know, Variable, it is fully possible in this and any other incident for both players to take the wrong action, and even if the victim takes the wrong action, that doesn't mean those that say "The victim took the wrong action." think that the other guy gets absolved.</p>


 </p>


Wilson should have pulled up on that hit, but Schenn should not have turned his back.  Making the game safer means that both the hitters and the hittees have to take the necessary steps to prevent injury.</p>


 </p>


That means not only teaching and penalizing players for not pulling up on hits like Wilson, but also finding some kind of discipline for player who turn their backs to a hit--be it out of reaction or trying to draw a checking from behind penalty.</p>

 

[Variable]

In a situation like this, it wouldn't have mattered. It was a charge into the boards. He had less than a second to react in any of kind of way, by then it was too late. To have that make this hit go from a hit on a defenseless player to the player getting hit being complicit in it and partly responsible for it, is nuts. How does he "choose" to get charged into the boards? He was getting charged into the boards no matter what, and that should've been a suspension, regardless of the end result. Wilson did get absolved.  And if people can't even agree that it was a charge, then that's pretty much the end of the conversation to me anyway.</p>


 </p>


Wilson has to know better, it's on him. That entire sequence he sees Schenn the entire way, sees where is Schenn along the boards, he knows that Schenn doesn't see him coming in for a hit, he cannot make that kind of a hit. Hell, he can't make that kind of a hit even if Schenn sees him coming all the way. The lengths people go to in order to even partly deflect blame is amazing to me. Finding discipline for Schenn in this? Are you fucking kidding me? He's lucky he still has a career from how this was handled, at all levels, the league, he team,  the player on the ice.</p>

 

[Shantz My Pants]

If Schenn had time to turn away, he had time to bend his knees and try and absorb some of the impact. He didn't, he gave his back to Wilson which put him in a worse position then when he started. If he wants to blame anyone with the end result it's on himself for turning his back to the checker.

 

[Variable]

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Trev" data-cid="217671" data-time="1387824496">
<div>


The respect I'm talking about isn't involved in this. That's a completely different argument that we've already beaten to death.


Wilson was coming in with speed to help out in the corner. At that point on a forecheck he's F2 who goes for puck. The puck broke out of the play when he was in the faceoff circle and he's now become F1 and his job is to take body. That means his task changed within 10 feet of Schenn. He wasn't skating into the zone with the thought of nailing Schenn. That designation came into play when he hit the faceoff dot.


Was it excessive? Sure but at that point there was nothing else he could do that would prevent that hit. He couldn't slow down, shit he was coasting when he hit the faceoff circle.


The respect part comes in after Schenn gets blasted and Wilson has to answer for his actions.</p>
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</blockquote>


 </p>


 </p>


Yeah coasting and then took additional strides in order to accelerate for that hit. Otherwise known as charging. In this case, charging a player in a vulnerable position near the boards, who up until the very last half second , didn't see him coming, and destroyed him into the boards. But that's on Schenn because he saw him at the very last nanosecond right? And Schenn didn't have time to turn away, as made evident by him not able to turn away.</p>


 </p>


To think  that Wilson is the one with limited options in this play is insane.  We see the potential for this play in every game we watch the Hawks in. And we see perfectly effective but still physical plays that get made by the Hawks in that situation that don't involve nearly ending a career. Every game we see it. We'll see it again tonight, I guarantee you.</p>


 </p>


So just answer this, was it or was it not always going to be a charge into a player that would have him crashing into the boards?</p>

 

[Shantz My Pants]

It's not always a charge when you hit someone into the boards. Wilson took one stride after the faceoff circle, and that was to get around Simmonds. The unwritten part of the rule is that you have to take three strides. To me Wilson was coasting once he passed Simmonds.


Did he hit him violently? Yes. But that could of been less/nonexistent had Schenn not turned his back.


Nobody has answered the question, how does Wilson avoid that hit? You can say Toews and Saad and whoever else plays it differently but you can't answer how. You have no examples besides saying they play it differently. What do they specifically do differently.


You won't admit Schenn is at any point at fault, but the fact of the matter is he turned his body away from the hit, WHICH YOU ARE TOLD NEVER TO DO, and the end result was because of Schenns decision to turn.

 

[Variable]

They don't charge the player into the boards, they may tie him up on the boards, they may get in front of him, force a board battle, stick check him, lift his stick, poke check the puck, there's no real catch all, easy way of describing it, but you know the difference when you see it and all of which were an option for Wilson. And I know you know what I'm talking about. We've been seeing it for years, it's integral in how they play, forcing turnovers, winning board battles. Are you really going to play dumb on this?</p>


 </p>


Whether he did turn slightly or somehow turned his back to Wilson or didn't turn at all really doesn't matter, it  doesn't take away from the fact Wilson was charging a player into the boards. Nothing Schenn could've done differently would've changed that. But the problem with you is that you can't even see it as charging, which essentially means it shouldn't have even been a penalty to begin with, which makes it pointless to even further discuss this at all with you. Even dumbass Shanahan couldn't deny that it was charging, which makes his ruling all the more fucked up, as per usual with him.</p>

 

[LordKOTL]

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Variable" data-cid="217674" data-time="1387827239">
<div>


In a situation like this, it wouldn't have mattered. It was a charge into the boards. He had less than a second to react in any of kind of way, by then it was too late. To have that make this hit go from a hit on a defenseless player to the player getting hit being complicit in it and partly responsible for it, is nuts. How does he "choose" to get charged into the boards? He was getting charged into the boards no matter what, and that should've been a suspension, regardless of the end result. Wilson did get absolved.  And if people can't even agree that it was a charge, then that's pretty much the end of the conversation to me anyway.</p>


 </p>


Wilson has to know better, it's on him. That entire sequence he sees Schenn the entire way, sees where is Schenn along the boards, he knows that Schenn doesn't see him coming in for a hit, he cannot make that kind of a hit. Hell, he can't make that kind of a hit even if Schenn sees him coming all the way. The lengths people go to in order to even partly deflect blame is amazing to me. Finding discipline for Schenn in this? Are you fucking kidding me? He's lucky he still has a career from how this was handled, at all levels, the league, he team,  the player on the ice.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>


I think you need to read my post again.  I am not absolving Wilson for the hit.  IMHO it was a charge and he should have pulled up.  But Schenn was fucking dumb for turning his numbers to Wilson.  Looking at it again, Schenn's move was a reaction, and as such he put himself in a position where he could have gotten severely injured.  Somehow, that reaction by Schenn was learned, and it needs to be un-learned. </p>


 </p>


If you want to reduce injuries in hockey, it's gotta be done in a two-pronged effort.  First prong: Eliminate as many dirty plays as possible.  I think everyone is in agreeance on this.  The 2nd is making sure players don't do things that can take an injury and make it worse because they did something dumb.  If you see a guy coming and you turn your numbers to them--be it to draw a penalty or because that's how you react unconsciously, it's gotta be fixed.</p>

 

[Variable]

I didn't think you were absolving him, I was saying the league was absolving him by not giving him any kind of supplemental discipline for that hit, regardless of how Schenn reacted. And to come down on Schenn for reacting in the way he did with as little time as he had to do anything whatosever is still ridiculous to me. I know what kind of plays you are referencing with that, like when two players are going into a corner for a loose puck, the player that will obivously get to it first looks back and sees the other guy coming and immediately puts his back to him as he gets the puck. I can understand the criticism in that.  I can definitely see your point in plays like that.</p>


 </p>


But In this case, no. Not with something that happened as fast as this play did. I don't care who it is, I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to the player who reacts instinctively in that way to a flying missile of an opposing player that suddenly shows up in his face that he had no idea was even there.</p>

 

[Shantz My Pants]

Guess we have to agree to disagree then.

 

[CLWolf81]

Dear Buffalo Sabres --- </p>


 </p>


Merry Christmas!</p>


 </p>


[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAOKAkEN7SI[/media]</p>


 </p>


With love --- the Phoenix Coyotes, specifically Mike Smith.</p>

 

[Variable]

Not even Huet could manage to pull that one off.</p>

 

[Ton]

That reminds me of the butt fumble. I laughed so hard at both.</p>

 

[LordKOTL]

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="CLWolf81" data-cid="217713" data-time="1387896991">
<div>


Dear Buffalo Sabres --- </p>


 </p>


Merry Christmas!</p>


 </p>


[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAOKAkEN7SI[/media]</p>


 </p>


With love --- the Phoenix Coyotes, specifically Mike Smith.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>


That made my day.  Thanks for posting </p>

 

[LordKOTL]

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Variable" data-cid="217686" data-time="1387834014">
<div>


I didn't think you were absolving him, I was saying the league was absolving him by not giving him any kind of supplemental discipline for that hit, regardless of how Schenn reacted. And to come down on Schenn for reacting in the way he did with as little time as he had to do anything whatosever is still ridiculous to me. I know what kind of plays you are referencing with that, like when two players are going into a corner for a loose puck, the player that will obivously get to it first looks back and sees the other guy coming and immediately puts his back to him as he gets the puck. I can understand the criticism in that.  I can definitely see your point in plays like that.</p>


 </p>


But In this case, no. Not with something that happened as fast as this play did. I don't care who it is, I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to the player who reacts instinctively in that way to a flying missile of an opposing player that suddenly shows up in his face that he had no idea was even there.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>


Fell free to give the benefit of the doubt--I won't get on you about that.  But ultimately it looked like Schenn did see him coming and reacted in a bad way. (again, not absolving Tom Wilson (Hello McFly!) at all).  His reaction was learned in some way and reinforced, and ultimately it has to be un-learned by him and by other players for 2 reasons:</p>


 </p>


(A) Turning your back to a player coming in for a hit--especially within the "danger zone" of the boards will lead to bigger injuries than bracing and absorbing it with your shoulder.  This can be taught to the point of automatic reaction and ultimately, will reduce injuries because players on the receiving end of hits will be less likley to receive a debilitating injury by taking the hit properly (kinda like teaching a kid not to punch with his thumb in his fist).</p>


 </p>


(B) If something is not done by the league about players turning away from hits, it will lead to players intentionally turning their numbers towards the hitter in hopes of drawing a penalty, which as a cousin of "diving" brings the whole game down.</p>


 </p>


Wilson's hit and Schenn's reaction IMHO are two separate cans of worms that each can be looked at individually.  Wilson should have pulled up IMHO.  He could have finished the check effectively without the extra strides.  In the same breath, Schenn should not have turned his back whether instinctual or not.  IMHO Wilson should have gotten 1 or 2 games and Schenn should have gone back to Hockey 101 and learned how to properly take a hit.</p>

 

[Variable]

I agree that he saw him.....a fraction of a second before he got hit. There's no way he knew Wilson was there before that instance. And in that instance, in that briefest of moments he had, he can't accurately judge how fast a player is going, where he's going for the hit, what you should do in relation to his position going for the hit, etc. All Schenn sees in a body suddenly right there in his face.</p>


 </p>


If you want to dole out some kind of punishment on players turning their backs, you have to take it on a case by case basis, it can't fall under an umbrella. But that's not the most important part of this to me. The root cause of all of this is the not caring about the kind of hit you're putting on a player in a defenseless position, which is what Schenn was in this case, and the league not caring enough about it and coaches in some cases essentially encouraging that kind of play. It goes back to the culture of the game that needs changing.   Wilson saw an opportunity to get noticed, to make an impression on his coach, which was, going by Oates comments after the game and after the ruling, was a favorable one. If you want to talk about bad/dangerous habits being learned and then reinforced, that's a much better example of one in this situation right there coming straight from the mouth of a NHL coach rather than how  a player reacted to a dirty hit he saw coming for a millisecond before it happened.</p>


 </p>


Like I said, due to how this hit was handled and received and reacted to by authority figures in the NHL, I wouldn't doubt that we see another example of Wilson taking advantage of a player in a defenseless position again this season. He got nothing but praise from his coach in this. That's where the attention needs to be, not in how Schenn reacted in the split second he had.</p>


 </p>


Not the first time Oates proved how stupid he was by what he said, he essentially called for someone to take Hertl out earlier this season when he smiled about scoring 4 goals in a game, a game that didn't even involve the Capitals. Well, he got his Christmas wish, because Hertl is probably done for the season after a knee on knee by Dustin Brown. That'll teach him, how dare he break out in the league like that in his rookie year and be happy about it. Only in the NHL will you hear a coach talk like that and not be criticized around the league. Again, it all speaks to the culture that needs to be changed.</p>

 

[PatrickSharpRules]

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Variable" data-cid="217771" data-time="1388101912">
<div>


I agree that he saw him.....a fraction of a second before he got hit. There's no way he knew Wilson was there before that instance. And in that instance, in that briefest of moments he had, he can't accurately judge how fast a player is going, where he's going for the hit, what you should do in relation to his position going for the hit, etc. All Schenn sees in a body suddenly right there in his face.</p>


 </p>


If you want to dole out some kind of punishment on players turning their backs, you have to take it on a case by case basis, it can't fall under an umbrella. But that's not the most important part of this to me. The root cause of all of this is the not caring about the kind of hit you're putting on a player in a defenseless position, which is what Schenn was in this case, and the league not caring enough about it and coaches in some cases essentially encouraging that kind of play. It goes back to the culture of the game that needs changing.   Wilson saw an opportunity to get noticed, to make an impression on his coach, which was, going by Oates comments after the game and after the ruling, was a favorable one. If you want to talk about bad/dangerous habits being learned and then reinforced, that's a much better example of one in this situation right there coming straight from the mouth of a NHL coach rather than how  a player reacted to a dirty hit he saw coming for a millisecond before it happened.</p>


 </p>


Like I said, due to how this hit was handled and received and reacted to by authority figures in the NHL, I wouldn't doubt that we see another example of Wilson taking advantage of a player in a defenseless position again this season. He got nothing but praise from his coach in this. That's where the attention needs to be, not in how Schenn reacted in the split second he had.</p>


 </p>


Not the first time Oates proved how stupid he was by what he said, he essentially called for someone to take Hertl out earlier this season when he smiled about scoring 4 goals in a game, a game that didn't even involve the Capitals. Well, he got his Christmas wish, because Hertl is probably done for the season after a knee on knee by Dustin Brown. That'll teach him, how dare he break out in the league like that in his rookie year and be happy about it. Only in the NHL will you hear a coach talk like that and not be criticized around the league. Again, it all speaks to the culture that needs to be changed.</p>
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</blockquote>


 </p>


Man how is this Schenn conversations still going on?</p>


 </p>


And I don't think Dustin Brown hit Hertl knee to knee because of his 4th goal against Biron, Brown tends to hit anything that moves. You can say what you want about the NHL culture but I don't think you could be more wrong. The surrounding leagues have a culture of huge contracts, coinciding bankrupcy, prison, more money, adding anything extracurricular article of clothing, worrying about playing time, how many shots they can take, passes thrown to them, position in the lineup......and it goes on and on.</p>


 </p>


The NHL is concerned with winning and at its worst players going at it on the ice by settling everything right then and there. It has by far the best culture of the big 4 pro sports, by far. Every man in the NHL is living in a dream world, you cannot feel sorry for them after every questionable hit as they are there on their own accord in a very free country. They know exactly what they signed up for and love every minute of it. If you think it is too violent then watch some Premier League soccer.</p>