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Diehardfan

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This is what newer fans never understand. They can only see the 3 Cups, because that's when they started paying attention.

This is so, so correct. The biggest complainers are fans that only jumped on the bandwagon when the Hawks starting being a force in the league. Mostly kids that 'assume' winning.....not these days. Player greed, a salary cap and a lack of foresight by most GM's make championship windows small. There are a lot of us that have seen the ugly mess that this franchise was.....I wonder how many of these kids actually remember that it wasn't all that long ago that Hawk home games were not even televised. The owner had some strange loyalty to a blithering idiot of a coach/GM named Pulford. I know a lot of us, myself included, don't think much of Bowman.....but I do think a lot of McDonough and the front office he has built. It will take a couple of years but this team will be back.
 

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Arizona needed that contract in order for them to remain above the Cap floor at the time, but they also received Hinostroza, Oesterle, and multiple picks to take on Hossa's dead contract -- so if you want to include very high prospects and multiple draft picks in order to move a contract like Seabrook's, say, that pretty much defeats the purpose if the goal is to rebuild, which it should be.
I think it also depends on what the plan is an how far down the road you could kick a particular can.

Just speculation, but I think that Stan considered Osterle and Hino expendable. I think with Debrincat coming up and Boqvist/Joker/Beaudin/Mitchell in the pipeline Stan thought he could kick the can down the road a bit...again, speculation.
The recapture stuff I'm hazy on, but I don't think that would be a huge concern at this point, especially with Keith -- who can still play. Seabrook will probably not finish out his contract of course, but he will probably just do what Hossa did and not officially retire. Besides, I thought the recapture penalty only kicks in if the player's personal (total) salary is more than the AAV/cap hit...if that is the case, Keith's remaining years is fine and Seabrook's personal salary is higher than his cap hit, but only for this season -- the rest of his contract is fine. That's how I understand it, anyway.

https://www.capfriendly.com/players/duncan-keith
https://www.capfriendly.com/players/brent-seabrook
The gist of recapture is the cap advantage over the remainder of the contract, not in any given year. It's basically cap hit per year times years left, minus actual salary remaining in the contract times year left, divided by years left. So in Hossa's case in 2018 he had 21.1M in cap salary left (5.275M*4), and he was only making 4M total in actual salary--1M/year. So that's 17.1M of cap advantage over 4 years, or 4.275M of recapture penalty if he retired instead of Pronger'ed himself. Adding to that, the last years of his contract were all 1M, so the cap advantage is the same per year through the rest of his deal...if he decided to fully retire.

Keith is more complicated since his actual salary goes from 3.5 this year, to 2.65 next year, to 2.1 the following, and finally 1.5M. Thus as time goes on his cap advantage gets more and thus the recapture amount per year. If he retired this summer it would be a recapture of 3.45M, to a recapture of 3.64 the following summer, and 4.03 if he retired before his last season.

It may not seem like much, but that amount of dead cap could set the 'hawks back just like a buyout. It could cost us a Murphy. Thankfully Keith has not been a money soak and has been playing well overall, so I think the point is moot unless his play drops off the cliff like Seabs'.

As for Seabs, he's not a recapture risk because he signed after 2013. His issue is that if he retired, he'd leave a lot of money on the table which is incentive for him to keep playing. Plus the LTIR solution requires the player to be on the books for the 1st day of the season. Honestly though I'm not too worried about them moving forward.

Was a cap floor team. No more, which is why I said that 5 million could have been used now that they are a playoff team. Today they are at 86 million, no room. They are in worse shape than the hawks.

Either way, I am hoping there is no Hawk movement because Rocky will not allow stan to make this roster worse.
86 in cap...not in actual salaries. in salaries they're projected at 74M (vs. 79M for the 'hawks). Hossa costs AZ about $1M per year even though he's 5.275M in cap--that's about 4.275M they don't have to spend in salaries vs. what's on the cap (and rumor has it player insurance covered the $1M). For a team like AZ with a limited actual budget (at least was limited internal), contracts like those help. They aren't the only team to do things like that--they are just notorious for it.

The 'hawks have a similar projection. In 2023 they're projected right now for 39.9M in cap with their current contracts, but 29M in salary to be paid. Keith's deal (1.5M salary vs. 5.538 in cap), Seabs' deal (5M in salary vs. 6.88M in cap), and Toews & Kane's deals (6.9M in salary vs. 10.5M in cap) help this.
 

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To all the newbs, how do you think those 3 cups happened. That's right, #1 overall pick Patrick Kane, #3 overall pick Toews. And that was done by completely tanking the system by unloading popular players like Chelios, Balfour, Roenick, Amonte, etc.

Same with Cubs newbs. Theo Epstein upon taking over proceeded to lose 91, 101, 96 and 89 losses as he accumulated draft picks.

So it's time to cycle the same proven method....
 
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anotheridiot

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To all the newbs, how do you think those 3 cups happened. That's right, #1 overall pick Patrick Kane, #3 overall pick Toews. And that was done by completely tanking the system by unloading popular players like Chelios, Balfour, Roenick, Amonte, etc.

Same with Cubs newbs. Theo Epstein upon taking over proceeded to lose 91, 101, 96 and 89 losses as he accumulated draft picks.

So it's time to cycle the same proven method....
Dale Tallon was around to do that.
 

anotheridiot

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I think it also depends on what the plan is an how far down the road you could kick a particular can.

Just speculation, but I think that Stan considered Osterle and Hino expendable. I think with Debrincat coming up and Boqvist/Joker/Beaudin/Mitchell in the pipeline Stan thought he could kick the can down the road a bit...again, speculation.

The gist of recapture is the cap advantage over the remainder of the contract, not in any given year. It's basically cap hit per year times years left, minus actual salary remaining in the contract times year left, divided by years left. So in Hossa's case in 2018 he had 21.1M in cap salary left (5.275M*4), and he was only making 4M total in actual salary--1M/year. So that's 17.1M of cap advantage over 4 years, or 4.275M of recapture penalty if he retired instead of Pronger'ed himself. Adding to that, the last years of his contract were all 1M, so the cap advantage is the same per year through the rest of his deal...if he decided to fully retire.

Keith is more complicated since his actual salary goes from 3.5 this year, to 2.65 next year, to 2.1 the following, and finally 1.5M. Thus as time goes on his cap advantage gets more and thus the recapture amount per year. If he retired this summer it would be a recapture of 3.45M, to a recapture of 3.64 the following summer, and 4.03 if he retired before his last season.

It may not seem like much, but that amount of dead cap could set the 'hawks back just like a buyout. It could cost us a Murphy. Thankfully Keith has not been a money soak and has been playing well overall, so I think the point is moot unless his play drops off the cliff like Seabs'.

As for Seabs, he's not a recapture risk because he signed after 2013. His issue is that if he retired, he'd leave a lot of money on the table which is incentive for him to keep playing. Plus the LTIR solution requires the player to be on the books for the 1st day of the season. Honestly though I'm not too worried about them moving forward.


86 in cap...not in actual salaries. in salaries they're projected at 74M (vs. 79M for the 'hawks). Hossa costs AZ about $1M per year even though he's 5.275M in cap--that's about 4.275M they don't have to spend in salaries vs. what's on the cap (and rumor has it player insurance covered the $1M). For a team like AZ with a limited actual budget (at least was limited internal), contracts like those help. They aren't the only team to do things like that--they are just notorious for it.

The 'hawks have a similar projection. In 2023 they're projected right now for 39.9M in cap with their current contracts, but 29M in salary to be paid. Keith's deal (1.5M salary vs. 5.538 in cap), Seabs' deal (5M in salary vs. 6.88M in cap), and Toews & Kane's deals (6.9M in salary vs. 10.5M in cap) help this.
All I know is Arizona has zero dollars to spend to try and improve their team.

I do know that the Hossa deal was frowned upon by the NHL and the hawks were punished for it. ITs alot like the Keith deal, promising 5.3 million basically forever so he would sign here.

No cap in the playoffs though.
 

Granada

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To all the newbs, how do you think those 3 cups happened. That's right, #1 overall pick Patrick Kane, #3 overall pick Toews. And that was done by completely tanking the system by unloading popular players like Chelios, Balfour, Roenick, Amonte, etc.

Same with Cubs newbs. Theo Epstein upon taking over proceeded to lose 91, 101, 96 and 89 losses as he accumulated draft picks.

So it's time to cycle the same proven method....

? Wow!

You know, there was like an entire era between the Roenick/Chelios era and the Toews/Kane era. Daze, Arnason, Bell, Calder, Sullivan, Van Deer Meer, Wis, Anderson, Thibault, Varobiev (haha), Lapointe, Fleury, Augroin, Odelien (yes, seriously), Berard, Lang, Havlat, Khabi, Ruutu, the list goes on....

My point is, the Roenick era had no bearing whatsoever on the current era -- to imply that those moves got us we we are today is laughable, as there was at least one failed rebuild in-between with those players I just listed.

Talk about a newb.
 

Granada

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This is so, so correct. The biggest complainers are fans that only jumped on the bandwagon when the Hawks starting being a force in the league. Mostly kids that 'assume' winning.....not these days. Player greed, a salary cap and a lack of foresight by most GM's make championship windows small. There are a lot of us that have seen the ugly mess that this franchise was.....I wonder how many of these kids actually remember that it wasn't all that long ago that Hawk home games were not even televised. The owner had some strange loyalty to a blithering idiot of a coach/GM named Pulford. I know a lot of us, myself included, don't think much of Bowman.....but I do think a lot of McDonough and the front office he has built. It will take a couple of years but this team will be back.

The majority of longtime fans I come across hate McD -- I never really had a problem with him, but again, a lot of people do. I remember so many fans were ticked at the time Hossa was signed, because they felt McD simply wanted a big marketing splash -- and they were angry that Hossa pretty much cost the team Havlat (hilarious when you think about it). I got into so many arguments because I loved the move and argued that Havlat was damaged goods after being Kronwalled in the playoffs that year. Anyways, if he was the impetus to the Hossa signing, that was arguably the best free agent signing in the last 10 years; and he brought back Foley to boot (thank God, because if I had to listen to another minute of Dan Kelly, I would have jumped off a building).

Seems like a lot of people hate McD now because they believe he's too hands-on with Bowman and that he may be the reason for this rebuild-on-the-fly strategy -- but that's just speculation on their part.
 

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The majority of longtime fans I come across hate McD -- I never really had a problem with him, but again, a lot of people do. I remember so many fans were ticked at the time Hossa was signed, because they felt McD simply wanted a big marketing splash -- and they were angry that Hossa pretty much cost the team Havlat (hilarious when you think about it). I got into so many arguments because I loved the move and argued that Havlat was damaged goods after being Kronwalled in the playoffs that year. Anyways, if he was the impetus to the Hossa signing, that was arguably the best free agent signing in the last 10 years; and he brought back Foley to boot (thank God, because if I had to listen to another minute of Dan Kelly, I would have jumped off a building).

Seems like a lot of people hate McD now because they believe he's too hands-on with Bowman and that he may be the reason for this rebuild-on-the-fly strategy -- but that's just speculation on their part.
McDonuts was brought in to change the appeal of the hawks, get more than just the die hard Chicago Stadium fans. I have yet to see a game in the UC. I was about two rows from the roof at a game in the old chicago stadium and can still remember it shaking. Chemical supplier gave me tickets. They moved to the wolves to get glass seats for half the price after that year.
Problem now is he is creeping into the actual hockey side.
 

Granada

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I think it also depends on what the plan is an how far down the road you could kick a particular can.

Just speculation, but I think that Stan considered Osterle and Hino expendable. I think with Debrincat coming up and Boqvist/Joker/Beaudin/Mitchell in the pipeline Stan thought he could kick the can down the road a bit...again, speculation.

The gist of recapture is the cap advantage over the remainder of the contract, not in any given year. It's basically cap hit per year times years left, minus actual salary remaining in the contract times year left, divided by years left. So in Hossa's case in 2018 he had 21.1M in cap salary left (5.275M*4), and he was only making 4M total in actual salary--1M/year. So that's 17.1M of cap advantage over 4 years, or 4.275M of recapture penalty if he retired instead of Pronger'ed himself. Adding to that, the last years of his contract were all 1M, so the cap advantage is the same per year through the rest of his deal...if he decided to fully retire.

Keith is more complicated since his actual salary goes from 3.5 this year, to 2.65 next year, to 2.1 the following, and finally 1.5M. Thus as time goes on his cap advantage gets more and thus the recapture amount per year. If he retired this summer it would be a recapture of 3.45M, to a recapture of 3.64 the following summer, and 4.03 if he retired before his last season.

It may not seem like much, but that amount of dead cap could set the 'hawks back just like a buyout. It could cost us a Murphy. Thankfully Keith has not been a money soak and has been playing well overall, so I think the point is moot unless his play drops off the cliff like Seabs'.

As for Seabs, he's not a recapture risk because he signed after 2013. His issue is that if he retired, he'd leave a lot of money on the table which is incentive for him to keep playing. Plus the LTIR solution requires the player to be on the books for the 1st day of the season. Honestly though I'm not too worried about them moving forward.


86 in cap...not in actual salaries. in salaries they're projected at 74M (vs. 79M for the 'hawks). Hossa costs AZ about $1M per year even though he's 5.275M in cap--that's about 4.275M they don't have to spend in salaries vs. what's on the cap (and rumor has it player insurance covered the $1M). For a team like AZ with a limited actual budget (at least was limited internal), contracts like those help. They aren't the only team to do things like that--they are just notorious for it.

The 'hawks have a similar projection. In 2023 they're projected right now for 39.9M in cap with their current contracts, but 29M in salary to be paid. Keith's deal (1.5M salary vs. 5.538 in cap), Seabs' deal (5M in salary vs. 6.88M in cap), and Toews & Kane's deals (6.9M in salary vs. 10.5M in cap) help this.

Ah, that makes much more sense, thanks Kotl. Let me just see if I got this right: so if Keith retired this off-season, the re-capture penalty for the Hawks would be in 10.3 million range (10,365,386 to be exact).
 

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The majority of longtime fans I come across hate McD -- I never really had a problem with him, but again, a lot of people do. I remember so many fans were ticked at the time Hossa was signed, because they felt McD simply wanted a big marketing splash -- and they were angry that Hossa pretty much cost the team Havlat (hilarious when you think about it). I got into so many arguments because I loved the move and argued that Havlat was damaged goods after being Kronwalled in the playoffs that year. Anyways, if he was the impetus to the Hossa signing, that was arguably the best free agent signing in the last 10 years; and he brought back Foley to boot (thank God, because if I had to listen to another minute of Dan Kelly, I would have jumped off a building).

Seems like a lot of people hate McD now because they believe he's too hands-on with Bowman and that he may be the reason for this rebuild-on-the-fly strategy -- but that's just speculation on their part.

I don't remember anyone being upset with the Hossa signing. I do remember folks hating the Huet pickup.

I really liked Havlat and really really wanted him back, but I couldn't even remember Havlat's first name once #81 came on board.
 

Granada

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I don't remember anyone being upset with the Hossa signing. I do remember folks hating the Huet pickup.

I really liked Havlat and really really wanted him back, but I couldn't even remember Havlat's first name once #81 came on board.

Yeah, I remember that too about Huet. I remember getting into some heated arguments with Havlat/Hossa, similar to the firestorm of the Sharp-or-Buff debate (I wanted Sharp at the time, still think that was the right decision)
 

LordKOTL

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Ah, that makes much more sense, thanks Kotl. Let me just see if I got this right: so if Keith retired this off-season, the re-capture penalty for the Hawks would be in 10.3 million range (10,365,386 to be exact).
Yes, you're basically correct. Recapture penalty is the Cap advantage calculated for the remaining contract divided by the years remaining. It's 10.36M in cap advantage divided by the 3 remaining years...so 3.45M per year.

Yeah, I remember that too about Huet. I remember getting into some heated arguments with Havlat/Hossa, similar to the firestorm of the Sharp-or-Buff debate (I wanted Sharp at the time, still think that was the right decision)
Personally, I liked Hossa but then again I followed his career from Jr. in Portland--and I always have a soft spot for Winterhawks alumni (Hossa, Klinkhammer, Labarbera, Jokiharju to name a few that laced 'em up for the Blackhawks). I think another factor was Hossa was coming in as damaged goods with his shoulder surgery, while Havlat was healthy right then and there. Hossa back then was without a doubt the better player but I remember some of the blithering was that Hossa not being there early might cripple the team and dig them into a hole (which it didn't), or some citing the loyalty factor. You know, Havlat was willing to come the 'hawks and give some good years and now we're turing our back on him even though we're getting a much better player in return.

Huet was a different beast. I seem to recall us getting Huet with the expectation that we'd lose Khabi...but the deal to send Khabi out fell through, so the plan B was to platoon them even though I though one of Crawford or Neimi was ready enough for backup-to-starter duties. In the long run I don't think it mattered--I think the core back in 2009 was still a bit too raw to get through Detroit that year.
 

Granada

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Yes, you're basically correct. Recapture penalty is the Cap advantage calculated for the remaining contract divided by the years remaining. It's 10.36M in cap advantage divided by the 3 remaining years...so 3.45M per year.


Personally, I liked Hossa but then again I followed his career from Jr. in Portland--and I always have a soft spot for Winterhawks alumni (Hossa, Klinkhammer, Labarbera, Jokiharju to name a few that laced 'em up for the Blackhawks). I think another factor was Hossa was coming in as damaged goods with his shoulder surgery, while Havlat was healthy right then and there. Hossa back then was without a doubt the better player but I remember some of the blithering was that Hossa not being there early might cripple the team and dig them into a hole (which it didn't), or some citing the loyalty factor. You know, Havlat was willing to come the 'hawks and give some good years and now we're turing our back on him even though we're getting a much better player in return.

Huet was a different beast. I seem to recall us getting Huet with the expectation that we'd lose Khabi...but the deal to send Khabi out fell through, so the plan B was to platoon them even though I though one of Crawford or Neimi was ready enough for backup-to-starter duties. In the long run I don't think it mattered--I think the core back in 2009 was still a bit too raw to get through Detroit that year.

Good call, I forgot about the shoulder injury. Another thing about it was the simple fact that people hated Hoss because they felt he had zero loyalty -- since he jumped from Pittsburgh to Detroit when he lost out on those Cups.
 

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Good call, I forgot about the shoulder injury. Another thing about it was the simple fact that people hated Hoss because they felt he had zero loyalty -- since he jumped from Pittsburgh to Detroit when he lost out on those Cups.

I'm as big of a Hoss fan as you'll find, but when he went from Pit to Det I was pretty pissed about it. As soon as he was traded for, I couldn't wait to see him as a Hawk. I loved his play back in Ottawa and Atl.
His switch to a more defensive forward on the Hawks was awesome to see unfold. I think his relentless backchecking still shows on this team. As a mid 30 year old racing back as hard as he did must have made many younger players think "if this old guy can do that, I damn well better do it too".
 

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Mike Smith did the dirty work, only the newbs think it was ALL Tallon
Newbs? Tallon was director of player personnell since 1998 with Smith, turned Assistant GM, then GM.
I think Tallon had something to do with it.
 

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Newbs? Tallon was director of player personnell since 1998 with Smith, turned Assistant GM, then GM.
I think Tallon had something to do with it.

Duncan Keith? yep a Smith draft pick
Big Buff? yep a Smith draft pick
Brent Seabrook? yep a Smith draft pick
Corey Crawford? yep, a Smith draft pick
etc.
etc.

yep you still a newb in my book
 

RacerX

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? Wow!

You know, there was like an entire era between the Roenick/Chelios era and the Toews/Kane era. Daze, Arnason, Bell, Calder, Sullivan, Van Deer Meer, Wis, Anderson, Thibault, Varobiev (haha), Lapointe, Fleury, Augroin, Odelien (yes, seriously), Berard, Lang, Havlat, Khabi, Ruutu, the list goes on....

My point is, the Roenick era had no bearing whatsoever on the current era -- to imply that those moves got us we we are today is laughable, as there was at least one failed rebuild in-between with those players I just listed.

Talk about a newb.

FU for rekindling my Hawks PTSD.
 

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The majority of longtime fans I come across hate McD -- I never really had a problem with him, but again, a lot of people do. I remember so many fans were ticked at the time Hossa was signed, because they felt McD simply wanted a big marketing splash -- and they were angry that Hossa pretty much cost the team Havlat (hilarious when you think about it). I got into so many arguments because I loved the move and argued that Havlat was damaged goods after being Kronwalled in the playoffs that year. Anyways, if he was the impetus to the Hossa signing, that was arguably the best free agent signing in the last 10 years; and he brought back Foley to boot (thank God, because if I had to listen to another minute of Dan Kelly, I would have jumped off a building).

Seems like a lot of people hate McD now because they believe he's too hands-on with Bowman and that he may be the reason for this rebuild-on-the-fly strategy -- but that's just speculation on their part.

Yes sir....all you mentioned plus he was the driving force on getting Blackhawk home games on free TV while moving away from the Stone Age of Dollar Bill. Another point is that many fans think Rocky is the one guy they have to thank for the rebirth and in a way he is.....but I'm fairly certain that he hired McD as CEO to make the majority of decisions as Rocky had very little to do with the team when his Dad passed, as he was the guy running their booze distribution company.
 

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Yes, you're basically correct. Recapture penalty is the Cap advantage calculated for the remaining contract divided by the years remaining. It's 10.36M in cap advantage divided by the 3 remaining years...so 3.45M per year.


Personally, I liked Hossa but then again I followed his career from Jr. in Portland--and I always have a soft spot for Winterhawks alumni (Hossa, Klinkhammer, Labarbera, Jokiharju to name a few that laced 'em up for the Blackhawks). I think another factor was Hossa was coming in as damaged goods with his shoulder surgery, while Havlat was healthy right then and there. Hossa back then was without a doubt the better player but I remember some of the blithering was that Hossa not being there early might cripple the team and dig them into a hole (which it didn't), or some citing the loyalty factor. You know, Havlat was willing to come the 'hawks and give some good years and now we're turing our back on him even though we're getting a much better player in return.

Huet was a different beast. I seem to recall us getting Huet with the expectation that we'd lose Khabi...but the deal to send Khabi out fell through, so the plan B was to platoon them even though I though one of Crawford or Neimi was ready enough for backup-to-starter duties. In the long run I don't think it mattered--I think the core back in 2009 was still a bit too raw to get through Detroit that year.

Goalies always seemed to be Tallon's achilles heel.....Khabby, then Huet....what a train wreck. I remember right when the Hawks started to turn the corner, my son had just gotten a great new job making well over 6 figures. He took me to Hawks game for my birthday...great seats, 1st row of the1st balcony right near the blueline. At the time, plenty of seats were available and he insisted at stopping at a booth that they advertised on the scoreboard about ticket plans and long term deals on seats. We talked for a bit with them but then the second period was about to start....they asked to see our tickets and would come to us at the next intermission. He was ready to buy the seats we were in for the rest of the season with a discounted playoff option as well. Like an idiot I talked him out of it solely because of the Hawks brutal goaltending....feeling they had zero shot with Khabby. He made a great case for my theory in that game as the Hawks were all over Minnesota but lost 5-2. I believe the shots for the game was something like 45-14.....in my mind, they couldnt and wouldn't do a thing until they got a goalie and I thought they were stuck with Khabby because of his contract. LOL, my son will never let me forget that and I will hate Khabibulin till the day I die.
 

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