[A] Roberto Luongo: Chicago's definitely one of them

[Variable]

I am speaking for how the voters in the hall chose not fans. there is a huge difference. right or wrong your beef is with the hall voters so direct them there.



dont get pissy at me for stating the trend i and no other fan has control over.



no doubt in my mind the entire game is based on team work and team dynamics. you are preaching to the choir here.



Vancouver was the highest scoring team in the reg season when they went to the cup final in 2011 whats your point about Vernon being on good teams? Do those offensive teams have nothing to do with Lous winning or success that year? They have been in the top 5 of the league in scoring for 3 years now. So when we look at a stat like wins for a goalie which is one thats being thrown out there as a reason why Lou should be in the hall how much do we know is about him and how much about the team? We don't. I understand fully what individual criteria should be met to be elected to the hall of fame and am one who actually want to discuss skill sets and technical aspects with others. Most don't want to go down that path.



No goalie is perfect they all have or have had holes in their games or weak spots. Lou is not immune and he has a thwack load of technical problems in his game (and I laugh so hard when people say he doesn't have mental flaws..he himself has admirably admitted to it a few times). Frankly he like many goalies now is saved by his large frame and padding which counters or hides a lot of his flaws...but this is the game now and I accept it for what it is. Would have been great if guys like Vernon had that luxury of bigger pads and if the league were looking more at butterfly big body positioning goalies because I can guarantee through discussing technical sides Vernon had a lot less flaws to his game than Lou does when you take away those aspects...hands down.

You didn't seem to understand what I was saying. Even when you look at Vernon's peers in his era, he was average to below average. That eliminates anything about him not being around when the butterfly style coming along throughout all levels of hockey or the bigger pads argument. When you look at him in his era, his numbers don't add up. To try and compare it to Luongo vs his peers, it's not even in the same ballpark. He doesn't fare favorably in his own era.

 

[PatrickShart]

It was on his list of Awards.



He's been a 3 time Vezina finalist..



And in 2003-4 on a shitty FLA team...a .931% and 7 shutouts while starting 72gms - where he saw 34.9shots per game. He lost to Brodeur who in 75gms - .917%, 11 shutouts and saw 24.3 shots a game.



Should have won it that year.

 

[Larmer83]

But Gillis isn't trading with CHI

Who the **** are you kidding?



Junior knows that a Luongo failure will show him the door quicker than he can say Fernado Pisani.



If he makes a play for Lou and it fails, daddy can't even save him.

 

[PatrickShart]

Gillis would have a hell of a lot more to lose/pressure from VAN media than Bowman.



The Canadian media is a big reason for him being run out/the mental state of that organization than anyone. They build them up so much (because thats the best chance Canada has had to win the cup), and then bury them when they fail.



I can't wait to see how Schieder does under that microscope. Everyone loves the backups in sports, until they get regular duty.

 

[Variable]

It was on his list of Awards.



He's been a 3 time Vezina finalist..



And in 2003-4 on a shitty FLA team...a .931% and 7 shutouts while starting 72gms - where he saw 34.9shots per game. He lost to Brodeur who in 75gms - .917%, 11 shutouts and saw 24.3 shots a game.



Should have won it that year.

You can make a great argument he should have won it the last 3 seasons he was in Florida, maybe with the exception of 05-06. But still, Kipper faced 26 shots a game that season, Luongo faced something again in the range of 33-34. The season before the one you listed, Luongo again lost the Vezina to Brodeur who faced 23 shots a game, with save percentage .914.



Luongo, 31 shots faced per game save percentage .918 with the second lowest scoring team in the league.

 

[the canadian dream]

Who the **** are you kidding?



Junior knows that a Luongo failure will show him the door quicker than he can say Fernado Pisani.



If he makes a play for Lou and it fails, daddy can't even save him.

But if it pays off he is anointed a master mind and creates a little legacy and a name. Gotta take a gamble as a GM its how you keep your job and how you keep getting them...also how you lose em and sit on the NBC desk for eons.



For Stan though...might be too early in his career for such a big gamble. You might be right. Give him another year or so before he is a "block buster guy". If he ever becomes one. Gotta get one under your shoes though at some point. So far Stans been good at giving the other teams the block buster players for nothing in return but cap relief. That's not block buster..thats fixing the books so I understand him there. But now with cap to play with? Real judgement time in the next 2 years. He needs a big deal by next off season or for one of his prospects to really blow it out of the water.

 

[Tater]

At least we understand metric like 90% of the world.

Lick my 14 cm.



Wait, is that small?

 

[the canadian dream]

Gillis would have a hell of a lot more to lose/pressure from VAN media than Bowman.



The Canadian media is a big reason for him being run out/the mental state of that organization than anyone. They build them up so much (because thats the best chance Canada has had to win the cup), and then bury them when they fail.



I can't wait to see how Schieder does under that microscope. Everyone loves the backups in sports, until they get regular duty.

You have nooo idea how this city works. None of you do unless you live here and see and read and hear it everyday. This is a hockey city there are no other sports teams to report on. We don't have NBA, MLBA, NFL to keep the sports media busy. Its Canucks 24/7 year round.



Gillis is only under pressure by the impatient fans now to deal Lou (and the media so they have a story). No one cares where he goes and how Schneider performs in Lous absence. The fan base and the media have given up on Lou here they would rather have a bantam league goalie. The fans are 50/50 split on Lou and so is the media and that's enough to say it's over we don't want you back. And YES that speaks volume about the unfair pressures and attitudes towards him here the last year. That has nothing to do with Lou the goalie that has everything to do with the culture and climate here which is the bigger problem. Ill never ever argue against that point but its only one in a few when you speak about Lou. He isn't only a victom he has said and done things in this city that hasn't helped his cause either.



But Gillis is under no pressure Schneider is what Lou was when he first came here..a fan favorite and a media darling...if Schneider fails it falls on the fans and media not Gillis everyone is well aware of that. And depending on what the cost is for a team to get Lou...we don't know what the pressure is for the other GM.

 

[PatrickShart]

So if/when Luongo leaves...and if Schnieder say struggles the first 10-15 games...maybe with a ,905%, and the team is around .500...while wherever Lu goes, he's at his .920 and team doing well - it won't go to Gillis as to why he didn't just keep him/etc? (Asking seriously...not wise ass)

 

[the canadian dream]

He had 1 groin injury (missed 24 games) in 2008-09 season (where he still played 54gms that year)..and has avg 61gms a year in the last 3 since that one time groin injury. Belfour had more back/groin injuries through his whole career than Luongo has.



Players now a days...if talented/take care of themselves...can play until 40. Will he be as good at 40 as he is at 33? Probably not..but the meat of his contract is done at 39. I'd be perfectly happy with knowing he can play 60-65gms for the next 5-6 years..



But Gillis isn't trading with CHI...so the Hawks are stuck with Crawford and blaming the D, Coaching, sophmore slump, the sun in his eyes..or whatever reason he's struggles again.

Or Crawford returns to some of the form in his rookie season and in that first round playoff series against the Canucks where he outplayed Lou as Lou himself attested to. Its always the worse case scenerio with us fans isn't it? Im guilty of it too no matter how I try to correct that.



I don't have a lot of faith in Craw based on last year either and the numbers and stats and all that and also including many of his technical and mental break downs. It wasn't pretty.



But I can also be a glass half full guy and can remain somewhat positive based on the great things I have seen Craw do. Just as I treat a player like Keith who crapped em the season after the cup and durring bad stretches last season. Just as Sharp can go MIA for months at a time and in the first round last year when he looked like hog shit. When Kane goes on 20 game goalless streaks I still have faith in him and know his talents are better.



Craw might have been a bit of a victim to the same shit excuses the rest of the players are allowed to have the last couple years (head office bs..coaching confusions). Not sure why everyone else gets to use the excuse but goalies never are. Gotta say Craw sort of picked up the slack for a lot of guys in the 2010/11 season when the team looked burnt out and tired all year he was one of the few positives. He has it in him..someone or something just has to get it back out. If he shits em again this season or starts off really bad (I agree hes going to be our starter) then Stan has to get busy and the Hawks are in shit trouble because you never want to be dealing from a point of weakness when goalies are involved.



I still think Lou doesn't get delt until the season is underway anyways. Gillis probably has no problems waiting for a possible Hawk goalie meltdown or any other teams goalie meltdown to really up Lous worth. And fear not the Canucks are good with the current roster they have..they aren't in dire need to get any return right now or looking to add some huge free agent which clearing up cap space could allow. Canucks are fine..their fans are fine and the media is fine with what is written as a roster right now. As for Lou wanting to play? Well again if he would extend his list of teams it would better his chances. If not he could be sitting at home watching games until he is delt (if the team doesn't want the distraction of him on the bench). Or not..Canucks have lots of options and no need to rush.



Lou himself has said he personally hasn't talked to Gillis much at all this offseason. Doesn't sound to me like a rush job going on. Who knows what the talks with the agent and GM have been though..doubt they are that intense either at the moment. They can't be when your wish list is written on a post it note.

 

[the canadian dream]

So if/when Luongo leaves...and if Schnieder say struggles the first 10-15 games...maybe with a ,905%, and the team is around .500...while wherever Lu goes, he's at his .920 and team doing well - it won't go to Gillis as to why he didn't just keep him/etc? (Asking seriously...not wise ass)

Gillis will always have a scape goat in this one. Like most Canuck GM's always have. Media and fans run this org more than people think. They have an influence on the business end which in turn has an influence on the ice.



And hey if you ask me Lou doesn't want to be here anyways and I don't blame him. Lets not forget about that. He said it himself "I enjoyed my time in Vancouver but it's time for me to move on". That pretty much means he wants to leave in my books. I think there is more to this situation than just the Canucks and fans and media deciding they are done...I strongly believe Lou had the conversation with the org also before Schneider was resigned. I don't blame him...like I have said many times this isn't a city for goalies. Schnieder is going to get his too eventually..it could be as early as next season lol we will see.

 

[PatrickShart]

And your mothers thighs are bruised from the donkey show I entered her in last weekend in Tijuana

 

[the canadian dream]

P.S. Schneider is a good technical goalie and was probably treated the way Crawford should have been with the Hawks. Mentored properly for an extra year and slowly groomed for the position. Canucks make fat mistakes but I think they did it right with Schnieder..we will see though. No one knows yet. Its only a guessing game.



The fans will kill him though eventually..that;s a given anyone can predict

 

[PatrickShart]

Crawford was groomed in the minors/had had what...5-6yrs before coming up? Or was that just yet another excuse for his short comings?

 

[Pez68]

I would honestly take Kipper over Luongo, if we're looking for an upgrade in net. Less years, slightly more money, and I think he will continue to be an elite goalie for the next three years, even though he's a couple years older.



Luongo just scares me. Like, Huet scare.

 

[the canadian dream]

Crawford was groomed in the minors/had had what...5-6yrs before coming up? Or was that just yet another excuse for his short comings?

not an excuse he has had one poor year out of two. you guys are throwing him out too fast ...listen to yourselves its messy. Just as we all love to do I could easily round up a list of goalies who had poor sophomore years only to rebound well. I know his year was really bad but just as everyone goes to the history books I could on this one also. But I am not going to bother (even though i would really love to remind people of how shitty Belfour was in 91/92 after a great rookie campaign)..haters gunna hate and haters gunna forget and ignore history.





Again why is every other player allowed excuses when they have shitty seasons and stretches but Cory isn't? Kane was shitty last year by his standards of expectations also. He gets to lay on the poor coaching excuse. Sharp goes MIA for month spells his excuse is the lamest "thats how he is". Keith gets his excuses wether they be too many minutes all the way to being burnt out. This all has to be nonsense too then.



Different groomings anyways..totally different. Schneider also put his time in on the farm but he also got to mentor under someone who wasn't 78 years old for a FEW seasons and he was actually given decent starting minutes in the right way. He has been eased in a lot more than Craw. Yes I am giving Lou credit here also for being a decent young mentor for Schnieder for a few years. Who did the Hawks have helping Cory? A washed up Turco for one year? Emery isn't mentoring him.



This org has had issues developing goalies since Belfour. You, me and everyones left balls know it. Maybe the problem runs deeper here. Been shit since Tretiek was let go also.



Im willing to give Cory a second chance. God knows the Hawks have also been amazing at giving up on some goalies too fast also.



Teams not winning shit anyways unless the pp produces better than it did last year and PK which yes Cory can take a lot blame there and this was the worst part of his game..he suuuuuuucks on the PK that's his main issue from last year and I will support that fact. 78.1% PK (27th) isn't going to get you far nor is a 15.2% PP (26th). These were the biggest issues last year and it sunk everyone. Cory gets big blame for the PK (Lou wasnt king shit on the pk last year either). If we are going to bash Craw then lets bash him areas that aren't abstract.

 

[the canadian dream]

I would honestly take Kipper over Luongo, if we're looking for an upgrade in net. Less years, slightly more money, and I think he will continue to be an elite goalie for the next three years, even though he's a couple years older.



Luongo just scares me. Like, Huet scare.

Honestly Kipper is under-rated and is highly comparable to Lou in so many ways. Yet has produced better or on par than Lou on teams that are far shittier than the ones Lou has played on. So if we want to talk about the team game and how a goalie makes a team better Kipper is the poster boy. His flaw is that he plays too many games for his own good..and it's part his fault (he never wants to sit) and part team fault (they never have given him a good backup). Put a team around Kipper..I would like to see it before he gets too old to wipe his own ass.



I would take Kipper over Lou also even though he is older if we are talking about winning again in the next few years. As for higher paid? I think it's about 500.000 more than Lou. No brainer here you take Kipper if you want to win now without disrupting the future also. No brainer. Too bad that can't happen. God knows what that trade would cost even though the Flames are fucking themselves and their future keeping Kipper and Iginla around while they still have trade value..esp for prospects.



I wouldn't be shocked to see Kipper moved this season actually. Yah I said it.

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

Wow... never thought I'd see all the "Lou Love" on here.

 

[klemmer]

but the Jennings is stupid to bring up though. Roman Turek has a fucking Jennings trophy.

so is save percentage.



A goalie gives up 3 goals on 50 shots = save % .940

His opponent gives up 2 on 25 shots = save % .920.



Give me the winner with a lower save % any day of the week.

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

so is save percentage.



A goalie gives up 3 goals on 50 shots = save % .940

His opponent gives up 2 on 25 shots = save % .920.



Give me the winner with a lower save % any day of the week.

We've discussed this before. I agree with you that sv% is a dumb stat to bring up on a game by game basis. But its a pretty damn good barometer on a goalies ability over the span of a season or long stretch of games. Go look at the top 10 sv% for goalies who started 45 games plus last season.