Astros To The AL West

nickofypres

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Tell me how the AL doesn't have an advantage? You tell me that the AL is at such a disadvantage because they are losing their big time bat (DH) when they come to NL parks. The NL gets to add a crappy bench bat to their lineup to match up with that middle of the order hitter. How is that not an advantage in their own park?

Sure, maybe when they come to an AL park they may be at a disadvantage if everyone on their bench is a bunch of scrubs. White Sox have a pretty good bench. If we were an NL team and wen't to an AL park I wouldn't be bothered if Tyler Flowers is the DH. (or more realistically Konerko is moved to DH and Flowers plays first)

But even if that's the case. Losing our DH is a hell of a lot worse than the NL having to keep its original line-up plus a "crappy bench bat".
 

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Last time I ask. What is it that the NL teams lose coming to the AL park?

it's not about winning or losing, it is about the matchup. :obama::obama::obama:
 

brett05

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They don't lose anything, but what NL team has a guy on their bench to match up with the big time DHs in the AL?

Ok so before we get off topic. The NL team loses nothing going to an AL park but gains a bat that is way better than the bat they have in NL parks
 

Jntg4

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Sure, maybe when they come to an AL park they may be at a disadvantage if everyone on their bench is a bunch of scrubs. White Sox have a pretty good bench. If we were an NL team and wen't to an AL park I wouldn't be bothered if Tyler Flowers is the DH. (or more realistically Konerko is moved to DH and Flowers plays first)

But even if that's the case. Losing our DH is a hell of a lot worse than the NL having to keep its original line-up plus a "crappy bench bat".

We don't have our DH in either when we play AL teams at NL fields... it goes both ways.
 

dabynsky

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Last time I ask. What is it that the NL teams lose coming to the AL park?

And I said they don't lose anything, but to ignore the comparative disadvantage between the NL "gaining" the right to have a bench player bat for the pitcher compared to the full time DHs that the AL employ is intellectually dishonest to say the least.

Now I've answered your question twice now. You mind answer me what NL team has a hitter on the level of the big time DHs in the AL on their bench?
 

Jntg4

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Ok so before we get off topic. The NL team loses nothing going to an AL park but gains a bat that is way better than the bat they have in NL parks

Missing the point.

:obama:
 

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Whatever. Apparently that's your guys story and you're sticking with it.

Well, let's think about it this way...

Your AL team and NL team are all composed of 25 players: 5 SP, 7 relievers, 8 starting position players and 5 bench guys. In the AL one of the bench guys is the regular DH. All your SP have 3.00 ERA, your relievers all have 3.50 ERA. Every single position player and bench player have .300 batting average.

If we are arguing on the basis of all things being equal, in the AL park, both teams will have an equal lineup against equal pitching with DH's that have equal ability. In the NL park, DH is now on the bench and both pitchers suck at hitting. Both teams have to play by each others' rules and must adapt to the perceived advantages or disadvantages each league confers.

However, we know that all things are not equal, and that starts with the way teams are constructed. The AL will not usually go with DH by committee and will employ one guy (i.e. a David Ortiz) to sit out half the game and hit the snot out of the ball when he is up. The NL will not employ that same guy because it's a waste of money to have that good of a hitter on the bench when they can have a utility guy as a defensive replacement. If they had a guy like David Ortiz, they'd either trade him to the AL or play him in the field (most likely at 1B).

The only reason we NL/Cubs guys are talking about inequality is because the game is unequal. Even if the AL team is missing their DH, their lineup and pitching outshines the NL, thereby removing whatever perceived disadvantages they might have for sitting their DH. The NL guys may have some advantage from replacing their pitcher with someone who theoretically could hit, but you're basically replacing a #9 hitter with a slightly better #9 hitter. The advantages/disadvantages are not as significant as you might think.
 

dabynsky

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Sure, maybe when they come to an AL park they may be at a disadvantage if everyone on their bench is a bunch of scrubs. White Sox have a pretty good bench. If we were an NL team and wen't to an AL park I wouldn't be bothered if Tyler Flowers is the DH. (or more realistically Konerko is moved to DH and Flowers plays first)

But even if that's the case. Losing our DH is a hell of a lot worse than the NL having to keep its original line-up plus a "crappy bench bat".

That isn't what I've been arguing. You guys claim that the NL is at no disadvantage (in fact my initial response was to Brett's claim that the NL actually gained an advantage over AL teams when playing with the DH). That is simple not true when you look at the reality of NL rosters. Find me an NL team that has a David Ortiz sitting on their bench.
 

Rice Cube

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That isn't what I've been arguing. You guys claim that the NL is at no disadvantage (in fact my initial response was to Brett's claim that the NL actually gained an advantage over AL teams when playing with the DH). That is simple not true when you look at the reality of NL rosters. Find me an NL team that has a David Ortiz sitting on their bench.

You won't. NL-David Ortiz was either playing in the field or traded for prospects :lol:
 

Jntg4

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You are now misreading in this thread too. It's not lose/win. It's lose/gain

No, it is who has the advantage. You are saying they gain this while they lose this as the determination, but that would only be valid if both were simultaneous and both started equal.
 

nickofypres

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Well, let's think about it this way...

Your AL team and NL team are all composed of 25 players: 5 SP, 7 relievers, 8 starting position players and 5 bench guys. In the AL one of the bench guys is the regular DH. All your SP have 3.00 ERA, your relievers all have 3.50 ERA. Every single position player and bench player have .300 batting average.

If we are arguing on the basis of all things being equal, in the AL park, both teams will have an equal lineup against equal pitching with DH's that have equal ability. In the NL park, DH is now on the bench and both pitchers suck at hitting. Both teams have to play by each others' rules and must adapt to the perceived advantages or disadvantages each league confers.

However, we know that all things are not equal, and that starts with the way teams are constructed. The AL will not usually go with DH by committee and will employ one guy (i.e. a David Ortiz) to sit out half the game and hit the snot out of the ball when he is up. The NL will not employ that same guy because it's a waste of money to have that good of a hitter on the bench when they can have a utility guy as a defensive replacement. If they had a guy like David Ortiz, they'd either trade him to the AL or play him in the field (most likely at 1B).

The only reason we NL/Cubs guys are talking about inequality is because the game is unequal. Even if the AL team is missing their DH, their lineup and pitching outshines the NL, thereby removing whatever perceived disadvantages they might have for sitting their DH. The NL guys may have some advantage from replacing their pitcher with someone who theoretically could hit, but you're basically replacing a #9 hitter with a slightly better #9 hitter. The advantages/disadvantages are not as significant as you might think.

I appreciate this post. I still may not completely agree with you. But I can understand your guys opinions and see where you're coming from a lot better now.

:clap:
 

brett05

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And I said they don't lose anything, but to ignore the comparative disadvantage between the NL "gaining" the right to have a bench player bat for the pitcher compared to the full time DHs that the AL employ is intellectually dishonest to say the least.

Now I've answered your question twice now. You mind answer me what NL team has a hitter on the level of the big time DHs in the AL on their bench?

You are trying to make an invalid analogy. What you are asking has nothing to do with the built in advantages that the NL gets

As to your question I'd have to look at every NL team and get the average of the 16 players who are the best bench players in the NL and compare them to the average AL DH.
 

nickofypres

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That isn't what I've been arguing. You guys claim that the NL is at no disadvantage (in fact my initial response was to Brett's claim that the NL actually gained an advantage over AL teams when playing with the DH). That is simple not true when you look at the reality of NL rosters. Find me an NL team that has a David Ortiz sitting on their bench.

Phillies have Thome.
 

Rice Cube

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I appreciate this post. I still may not completely agree with you. But I can understand your guys opinions and see where you're coming from a lot better now.

:clap:

I understand where you guys are coming from as well. As I said before, when all-season interleague comes about I think the teams may adjust how they build rosters, but until then there's very little to deny that AL > NL and whatever rule quirks may exist, the AL can overcome them a lot better than the NL can.
 

Jntg4

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You are trying to make an invalid analogy. What you are asking has nothing to do with the built in advantages that the NL gets

As to your question I'd have to look at every NL team and get the average of the 16 players who are the best bench players in the NL and compare them to the average AL DH.

It isn't an advantage. It's an improvement over what they normally face but the opponent gets an extra (better) hitter the NL team normally doesn't have to face as well.
 

brett05

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That isn't what I've been arguing. You guys claim that the NL is at no disadvantage (in fact my initial response was to Brett's claim that the NL actually gained an advantage over AL teams when playing with the DH). That is simple not true when you look at the reality of NL rosters. Find me an NL team that has a David Ortiz sitting on their bench.

I never said there is an advantage over the AL DH. That is something you've pushed incorrectly
 

Jntg4

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I never said there is an advantage over the AL DH. That is something you've pushed incorrectly

No, you said the NL had an advantage over the AL when the difference between the two is the bench player and the DH.
 

nickofypres

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Yeah, because Thome is 40 years old and took a cheap contract. In-his-prime Thome would still be a DH in the AL.

Last year Thome put up

256 BA 15 HR 50 RBI .361 OBP in the AL.

Its not like he was some washed up guy.
 

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