ATT: LOVIE NUTHUGGERS - please return to reality

[FatBabiesHaveNoPride]

I see the nuts are out in full force already this morning. :nervous:

Ok, let's cut through the meatballism.

Were you happy with no playoff appearances in 7 of the prior 10 seasons?

Were you happy with one playoff appearance in the final 6 seasons of Lovie's tenure?

Were you happy finishing in 3rd or 4th place in the division under Lovie?

Were you happy with Lovie changing out OCs every Tuesday?

Were you happy with a team that could not put a team that could play all 3 phases of the game effectively (particularly the most important one)?

 

[FatBabiesHaveNoPride]

I actually watched the Seattle game and saw the offense fail to score when given chances. I saw Earl drop a sure TD. I saw Major Wright drop an easy interception that would have ended the game at 14-10.

I also saw all the games where Cutler came up small to keep them from getting win # 11. Green Bay 2, his total QBR was 7.8, after he put up a 19.5 at MN and don't forget GB1 where he put up a 4.1 rating. Jay was clearly terrible in 4 close losses but I blame the defense too.

Losing 13-6 to a hot Texans team, collapse, 13-21 to GB, and 14-21 to MN with a pick six, Lovie's fault.

I was at the Seattle game. It was embarrassing. Remember, Seattle simply could not win on the road. It's as if a lightbulb went off in Bevell/Carroll's heads early in the 4th quarter. They decided to go to the read option and leverage fledgling rookie QB Wilson's skills. The Bears defense was dumbfounded. They literally had no answer. Specifically, the late drive in the 4th quarter and the winning drive in OT. And then the SF Monday night game.

Kaepernick and Wilson both popped their cherries during that season against the Bears 'vaunted' defense.

 

[bearmick]

IMO if you believe Trestman should be fired now, then Lovie should of been fired after 2004 because that was just as bad of a clusterfuck.

This is where I disagree. Lovie took over a bad team and it took him a year of shit to get them turned around, and he did. The improvement early in his tenure with the Bears was dramatic and consistent. 5-11 to 11-5 and playoffs to 13-3 and Superbowl. Yes his failure to get to the playoffs more often after that Superbowl was his downfall, but to compare his early time as HC with Trestman's is just inane in the extreme.

Trestman took a 10-6 team, went 8-8 in his first year, and appears on the way to anything from 5-11 to 7-9 in his second year. Whereas Lovie steadily improved the team after he took over, Trestman has done the polar opposite. And not only is the team on the field bad but by all accounts his ability to hold together the locker room and get the troops all marching to the same drum is an even bigger failure.

Lovie's first two/three years is so much >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Trestman's first year/two that I don't even have words to fairly articulate it. It would completely impossible to overstate how much.

 

[cd35]

Although I definitely fall in the Lovie is mediocre camp, comparing him, or even his 1st 2 years to the debacle now is ridiculous. This is an absolute train wreck.

Although people want to blame certain players, the offense itself from scheme, to play calling, to undisciplined penalties, to clock management and awareness of anything is atrocious.

The keeping and defense of Tucker is something out of the twilight zone. There may have been as bad coaches in the NFL but no one worse on every level. Even Tice on offense was better than Tucker's coaching ability

Special Teams is as atrocious.

Add this to absolutely no control of the locker room, having your defensive veteran tell the media he doesnt even pay attention anymore and now the defense admitting they dont even know what other positions are doing during the game and it's nothing but a total failure of coaching at every level.

They really were no better against the Vikings. A capable offense beats them probably easily that game.

 

[Bearshomer]

Sorry I should of been more specific. When I say no answer I'm referring to the 97 yard drive Wilson led to take the lead in the 4th and the 80 yard drive he led in OT to win it and how those relate to the points I've been making about the 2012 D being turnover dependent and not an outright dominate unit like the 2005 D.

The 2005 D wasn't nearly as reliant on turnovers and could make a stop when needed. Conversely if the 2012 D didn't force a turnover they weren't that special and could be easily beaten as clearly evidenced by Wilson that game and Kap 2 weeks prior. Urlacher was so old and broken down by that Seattle game Wilson effectively ended his career.

No Mike Brown, a lame banged up and old Urlacher, an old and slow Briggs, Melton goes down the next week againt Minny. By the end of the season the 2012 D couldn't hold a candle to 2005.

Sure Cutler deserves his share of the blame for the offensive failures during his time here but if you want to blame someone for Lovie's failures here blame Jerry and Lovie for their abysmal drafting and handling of the roster.

IMO if you believe Trestman should be fired now, then Lovie should of been fired after 2004 because that was just as bad of a clusterfuck. Terry Shea fell on the sword for Lovie then just like Tucker should rightfully fall on the sword for Trestman now. IMO Lovie and JA's handling of the offense and QB position during the Grossman era doomed Lovie far more than Cutler did. Any competent HC would not have gone into the 2004 season with Jonathan Quinn and Craig Krenzel as the backup QBs. Any competent HC and GM would of moved on from Grossman after it was apparent he was made of balsa wood and a mental midget and not wasted the 2005 and 2006 defenses. JA and Lovie have no one to blame but themselves for how things turned out here.

So the defense allows 17 points in four quarters and that is proof that Lovie's defenses were overrated. Got it.

 

[JDB_219]

So the defense allows 17 points in four quarters and that is proof that Lovie's defenses were overrated. Got it.

Giving that up to a team that averaged
25.8 is really pitiful and to a lousy Rookie with a total QBR of 71.7 and Passer Rating of 100 for the season... Lovie should have just walked off the field and kept going.

 

[JDB_219]

Ok, let's cut through the meatballism.

Were you happy with no playoff appearances in 7 of the prior 10 seasons?

Were you happy with one playoff appearance in the final 6 seasons of Lovie's tenure?

Were you happy finishing in 3rd or 4th place in the division under Lovie?

Were you happy with Lovie changing out OCs every Tuesday?

Were you happy with a team that could not put a team that could play all 3 phases of the game effectively (particularly the most important one)?

I wasn't happy with the results but I also looked at that roster and heard a lot of analysis about how bad it was and how the 2010-2012 bears were .500 type teams based on talent. Look back at preseason predictions for those years.

I saw that the one year we had a decent Oline they were in the Super Bowl. Felt like GM was the main issue to me.

 

[1ke]

Too much dumb in here.

Broc keep fighting. Better you than me!

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk

 

[Chicago4Life]

I agree that one can and should evaluate the two coaches only on their own merit and not in comparison.

The innovation stuff is silly and meaningless. What was innovative about the Giants teams that took out the Pats twice? They put guys out on the field and physically whipped the Pats upfront.

You know Lovie a played different schemes when needed, It is just lazy and uninformed to say otherwise. I think you know better but are playing a role.

isnt this where 4 pass rusher lineup started from? i think it was fewell or maybe the previous dc had a package like nascar or something similar where he lined up pass rushers inside rather than big bodied dt's? The goal was to generate quick pressure on brady so he wouldnt have time to scan the field. The only innovation by lovie that i remember was the famed mug look that was continually used by his yes man babich.

 

[FatBabiesHaveNoPride]

I wasn't happy with the results but I also looked at that roster and heard a lot of analysis about how bad it was and how the 2010-2012 bears were .500 type teams based on talent. Look back at preseason predictions for those years.

I saw that the one year we had a decent Oline they were in the Super Bowl. Felt like GM was the main issue to me.

Lovie was the coach for 9 years.

He finished 3rd or 4th in the division in 5 of those years.

That's all I need to know.

 

[RacerX]

Sorry I should of been more specific. When I say no answer I'm referring to the 97 yard drive Wilson led to take the lead in the 4th and the 80 yard drive he led in OT to win it and how those relate to the points I've been making about the 2012 D being turnover dependent and not an outright dominate unit like the 2005 D.

The 2005 D wasn't nearly as reliant on turnovers and could make a stop when needed. Conversely if the 2012 D didn't force a turnover they weren't that special and could be easily beaten as clearly evidenced by Wilson that game and Kap 2 weeks prior. Urlacher was so old and broken down by that Seattle game Wilson effectively ended his career.

No Mike Brown, a lame banged up and old Urlacher, an old and slow Briggs, Melton goes down the next week againt Minny. By the end of the season the 2012 D couldn't hold a candle to 2005.

Sure Cutler deserves his share of the blame for the offensive failures during his time here but if you want to blame someone for Lovie's failures here blame Jerry and Lovie for their abysmal drafting and handling of the roster.

IMO if you believe Trestman should be fired now, then Lovie should of been fired after 2004 because that was just as bad of a clusterfuck. Terry Shea fell on the sword for Lovie then just like Tucker should rightfully fall on the sword for Trestman now. IMO Lovie and JA's handling of the offense and QB position during the Grossman era doomed Lovie far more than Cutler did. Any competent HC would not have gone into the 2004 season with Jonathan Quinn and Craig Krenzel as the backup QBs. Any competent HC and GM would of moved on from Grossman after it was apparent he was made of balsa wood and a mental midget and not wasted the 2005 and 2006 defenses. JA and Lovie have no one to blame but themselves for how things turned out here.

Breh, stop it, you are making way too much sense.

I get a good laugh from the nut-huggers, the narrative goes something like this: we had a great D thanks to Lovie, and we had a shitty O due to JA. Well, if you looked at payroll during those "hey-days" you will find a disproportionate amount of the cap was allocated to personnel on D, duh. We had a great D because JA (+ predecessor) plied Lovie Gump with amazing D personnel talent. Not because Lovie innovated some great scheme, or adapted his personnel and/or schemes, ever, in any shape or form.

 

[roadwarrior_joe]

Good discussion....but time to stop it and admit what the real problems is......the fucking owners!!

Since the McCaskeys took over it has been a clown act.

Lovie or Tresman
Jauron or Lovie
Wanny or Jauron
Wanny or Mcginnis (opps)

How do you demand that the new GM (Emery) retain the soon to be released HC (Lovie), unless you are fucking stupid and fucking cheap? Then you demand the new DC (Tucker) run the same defense as the old HC in order to appease the old vets on the team that could care less if the new HC was successful since the HC they loved was soon to get axed.

You can argue until a comet hits this planet what coach sucks, but until everyone finally realizes how fucking stupid the owners are, nothing will change.

If the McCaskey's inherited a business 35 years ago that made a widget, and they had to compete with several other companies that made the same widget, the way they do business they would have been bankrupt and out of business 33.5 years ago. The fuckers are lucky they are part of the NFL, and have a fan base that will put up with anything.

They are the problem, not the coaches and GM's they hire.

And if the comet does hit the planet, my hope it falls dead center on Halas Hall.

 

[dabears253313]

People wanted Lovie Smith out way before he was fired and now they act like they want him back.

If the media says it then you have to go with it.

 

[JDB_219]

Breh, stop it, you are making way too much sense.

I get a good laugh from the nut-huggers, the narrative goes something like this: we had a great D thanks to Lovie, and we had a shitty O due to JA. Well, if you looked at payroll during those "hey-days" you will find a disproportionate amount of the cap was allocated to personnel on D, duh. We had a great D because JA (+ predecessor) plied Lovie Gump with amazing D personnel talent. Not because Lovie innovated some great scheme, or adapted his personnel and/or schemes, ever, in any shape or form.

Stop it with the Amazing. The amazing was lacking. Plenty of solid pros and a couple of HOF types in Lance and BU. That is it. You go find me a team that wins anything without at least as much talent as Lovie had. Please show me the QB who innovated around bad players.

I blame Lovie for the bad offense and credit him for the good defense and ST because I watched the games. The HC gets the big checks and he gets the blame. I am not going to try and insult the man with the silly idea that he just rolled out the balls. How do you explain the St. Louis D with him, who were his HOF types that carried him?

He took over the Rams D ranked 27 in DVOA the year before and they were then 5,11 and 6 during his three years. Repeated success in multiple stops makes me think he can actually coach defense.

The knowledge that the Rams offense faced a very easy schedule of defensive opponents is just one part of understanding why the 2003 Rams were a team driven more by defense than by offense. Look at the game-by-game results of the 2003 St. Louis Rams, and you get an even clearer demonstration of how the defense, not the offense, was the superior unit, and the one with more responsibility for the team's victories. This is one place where DVOA definitely exposes some of the bias that is inherent in conventional NFL statistics.
The usual numbers -- especially points scored and allowed -- often confuse a good offense for a good defense and vice versa. When a defense is consistently putting the offense in good field position to score, the offense will score. How does the defense put the offense into good position? Through stopping the opposing team, and through turnovers. And turnovers, well, if one word summarized the Rams entire season it would be "turnover." Here is a table showing the top teams in turnovers, both giveaways and takeaways, during the 2003 season:

Top 6 Takeaways Top 6 Giveaways
STL 46 STL 39
BAL 41 BAL 38
NWE 41 NYG 38
KAN 37 ARI 36
MIA 36 BUF 34
SFO 36 MIA 34
As you can see, the Rams were pretty far ahead of the rest of the NFL when it came to taking the ball from their opponents, and that led to a lot of good field position opportunities for the offense to score. At the same time, the Rams also led the league in turning the ball over themselves, which led to a lot of situations where the defense faced an offense which was more likely to score because it was getting the ball in good field position. If the offense is consistently turning the ball over to the other team in your territory, even the best defense is going to have trouble preventing a few touchdowns.
So now let's look at each game the Rams played in 2003, remembering the importance of these turnovers, separating the offense from the defense to see which unit performed better. Here is a table which includes the offensive, defensive, and special teams DVOA for each game, with comments as well:

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/dvoa-ratings/2004/misunderstood-rams

 

[Tjodalv]

Man, this fucking thread...

 

[RacerX]

Stop it with the Amazing. Hey! I respect your opinion, no need for posting instructions if/when you disagree.The amazing was lacking. Plenty of solid pros and a couple of HOF types in Lance and BU. That is it.Well, IMO they had as much D personnel talent as any team in the NFL, period. IDK if any of our current starting 11 would start on the old D built by JA (yeah, not Lovie, who brought in AA and Pace among others.....) You go find me a team that wins anything without at least as much talent as Lovie had. Please show me the QB who innovated around bad players. Don't know what you mean there, maybe a typo with QB \= HC ?
]

Anyway, let's agree you choose to give Lovie credit as a HC, and I don't and never will. /of our discussion?

 

[ijustposthere]

I wasn't happy with the results but I also looked at that roster and heard a lot of analysis about how bad it was and how the 2010-2012 bears were .500 type teams based on talent. Look back at preseason predictions for those years.

I saw that the one year we had a decent Oline they were in the Super Bowl. Felt like GM was the main issue to me.

Always an excuse for Lovie. Gotta love how you guys put all the blame on JA when Lovie failed, but want to give Lovie all the credit for the SB team that JA built, mostly prior to Lovie I might add. It must be pure bad luck that Lovie getting more control in his contract coincided with the teams downfall.

 

[RacerX]

Always an excuse for Lovie. Gotta love how you guys put all the blame on JA when Lovie failed, but want to give Lovie all the credit for the SB team that JA built, mostly prior to Lovie I might add. It must be pure bad luck that Lovie getting more control in his contract coincided with the teams downfall.

True. The Lovie apology goes something like this: awesome D thanks to Lovie's scheme and leadership; horrid O because of JA.

 

[Warrior Spirit]

I was certainly ready to move on from Lovie and I think there were a lot of Head Coaches at the time that could have made a more positive impact than Marc has. The one thing about Lovie though was that it always seemed like he garnered the respect of players and media alike. Trestman doesn't have that. Not saying I'd want the Bears to ever go back to Lovie. Just saying they still need a better HC.

 

[SlickWilly]

Ok, let's cut through the meatballism.

Were you happy with no playoff appearances in 7 of the prior 10 seasons?

Were you happy with one playoff appearance in the final 6 seasons of Lovie's tenure?

Were you happy finishing in 3rd or 4th place in the division under Lovie?

Were you happy with Lovie changing out OCs every Tuesday?

Were you happy with a team that could not put a team that could play all 3 phases of the game effectively (particularly the most important one)?

He's a Lovie fanboy. There's an excuse for every single fuck up Lovie ever did. It's pretty fuckin pathetic really.