Biggest Loss for the Bulls?

[TheStig]

Are you serious? Ever hear of Elton Brand? Horace Grant?

Elton Brand wasn't let go. He was traded for the #2 pick. Grant's departure also got us a better player in rodman the following year.

 

[Dpauley23]

Nope - watched all of his play. He actually shot worse from 06-09/10 season...his 2nd season was his best shooting wise.
And he was always too short to guard a 2...but he didn't pass enough to be a 1...so our 1 had to guard a 2, every time.

I liked Ben, but there's no team stupid enough to give him $12M/Year outside of Detroit....I'm glad that includes us.

So using your theory just because Korver is 6"6 he should be able to guard 2's. Also you need to stop listening to that idiot Neil Funk

 

[TheStig]

Nope - watched all of his play. He actually shot worse from 06-09/10 season...his 2nd season was his best shooting wise.
And he was always too short to guard a 2...but he didn't pass enough to be a 1...so our 1 had to guard a 2, every time.

I liked Ben, but there's no team stupid enough to give him $12M/Year outside of Detroit....I'm glad that includes us.

If he was so bad defensively, who lit him up his last year here? Why were we still able to be a top defensive team with BG starting in 06/07. The guy was average defensively from 06-07 on. I will give you he wasn't a great passer but outside of the wades and roys, most two guards don't create much for others. He is also a more diversified scorer than just a shooter. Shooters like Korver average score 10 ppg not closer to 20 like BG.

 

[X]

If he was so bad defensively, who lit him up his last year here? Why were we still able to be a top defensive team with BG starting in 06/07. The guy was average defensively from 06-07 on. I will give you he wasn't a great passer but outside of the wades and roys, most two guards don't create much for others. He is also a more diversified scorer than just a shooter. Shooters like Korver average score 10 ppg not closer to 20 like BG.

Ask Detroit if they regret signing him.

Look, if he was on the team last season, Rose would be guarding two's consistently...we wouldn't've sniffed .500. We are a better team without him and his prima donna "I wanna start b/c I'm a shooter" attitude.

 

[TheStig]

Ask Detroit if they regret signing him.

Look, if he was on the team last season, Rose would be guarding two's consistently...we wouldn't've sniffed .500. We are a better team without him and his prima donna "I wanna start b/c I'm a shooter" attitude.

He was injured most of last year and had surgery in the offseason. Clearly he wasn't the same last year and had limited movement with an ankle injury.

LOL are you kidding? We had the same record the year before with him here and guarding sgs. He also never really complained about starting. He was a professional. That despite the fact that our bigs were so much better this past year. Please go back to 08-09 and find me a few games where he got killed defensively. Should be easy with how terrible of a defender you claim he was.

 

[X]

Where was the drop off when we lost BG? There wasn't any...at all...Who did BG shut down defensively? no one...ever.

Look, I like bg...I'm just glad we didn't give him a big contract...that's all I said.

 

[Dpauley23]

Where was the drop off when we lost BG? There wasn't any...at all...Who did BG shut down defensively? no one...ever.

Look, I like bg...I'm just glad we didn't give him a big contract...that's all I said.

I rather have BG than Brewer and Korver. Also there was no drop off because the inside defense in 08-09 was one of the worst ever in the history of the league

 

[TheStig]

Where was the drop off when we lost BG? There wasn't any...at all...Who did BG shut down defensively? no one...ever.

Look, I like bg...I'm just glad we didn't give him a big contract...that's all I said.

Why would there be a drop off? We added a healthy deng, a in shape noah and taj gibson. Clearly the roster had better players than the past year.

As far as who he shut down? Since Kirk's injury that year. The first game he started he held delonte west to 2 pts on 1/4 shooting on 11/8/08. 11/11 held JJ to 4/16. 11/13 Jason terry 5/14. Those are just the first few and all of them shot well under their season percentages. Again, who exactly destroyed BG defensively? It should be easy to find since he is such a terrible defender.

 

[X]

I rather have BG than Brewer and Korver. Also there was no drop off because the inside defense in 08-09 was one of the worst ever in the history of the league

And with the same guys the next season it drastically improved? Taj didn't make that big of a difference, especially considering Noah played way fewer games in 09/10.
I'll suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree...

 

[TheStig]

And with the same guys the next season it drastically improved? Taj didn't make that big of a difference, especially considering Noah played way fewer games in 09/10.
I'll suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree...

Noah came into the season and sucked. He was out of shape. About the last 1/3 of the season he got into shape and played well. That team had no frontcourt. Taj was a starter by the end of the year and put up a ton of good games. We don't make the playoffs without him.

Its not agree to disagree. BG is clearly an average defender that can play within a system. He didn't get lit up in 08/09 and was a key contributor. You called him a bad defender and can't point to any games he got lit up. The guy is more than a shooter, he can get to the line a bit and is decent defensively. Thats what seperates him from the jason kaponos.

 

[X]

Noah came into the season and sucked. He was out of shape. About the last 1/3 of the season he got into shape and played well. That team had no frontcourt. Taj was a starter by the end of the year and put up a ton of good games. We don't make the playoffs without him.

Its not agree to disagree. BG is clearly an average defender that can play within a system. He didn't get lit up in 08/09 and was a key contributor. You called him a bad defender and can't point to any games he got lit up. The guy is more than a shooter, he can get to the line a bit and is decent defensively. Thats what seperates him from the jason kaponos.

The guy can't guard the same position on the other team. So you're right, he can play within a certain system. You have to make sure you have a PG who can guard a 2 so he can guard the other teams PG. Good thing that's convenient.

You can't compare #s against other PGs or SGs he played against, b/c he played against whoever wasn't as opposing defensively. And when the bulls needed a stop? You can bet your happy ass BG wasn't in the game. always Hinrich...every single time..

But, hey, you don't want to agree to disagree...fine..you win.

 

[JCM]

nice clean argument by both sides.

nice to see.

 

[X]

nice clean argument by both sides.

nice to see.

almost refreshing.

 

[JCM]

almost refreshing.

:elephant: .

 

[TheStig]

The guy can't guard the same position on the other team. So you're right, he can play within a certain system. You have to make sure you have a PG who can guard a 2 so he can guard the other teams PG. Good thing that's convenient.

You can't compare #s against other PGs or SGs he played against, b/c he played against whoever wasn't as opposing defensively. And when the bulls needed a stop? You can bet your happy ass BG wasn't in the game. always Hinrich...every single time..

But, hey, you don't want to agree to disagree...fine..you win.

I'm confused, who did he guard when Rose was in the game? In 08/09, he guarded SG's almost exclusively. He switched in the past because Kirk was the better defender(no arguement) and kirk, like BG was a combo guard and guarded both spots. What is wrong with the better defender guarding the better player? Last year, Kirk took the better defender between him and Rose, does that make Rose just a slasher?

Dude, Kirk was out for half the year. All the games I showed were games where BG started at SG and played sg for 35+min. He was guarding sgs with Rose on the floor. I never say Rose guarding Kobe.

And again, you never showed me a game he got lit up. Something that should be so easy to do with a bad defender. He is clearly average. If he were such a liability, we couldn't have had such a good defense with him playing a lot of min in 06/07. Your arguement sounds like a good summary of him as a rookie. Not really true in his last years here.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Man BG just never goes away does he?

After a quick skim of the argument, I figured I'd throw in my two cents on the issue.

BG guarded SG's with Rose in the game because Rose simply sucked defensively. At that point in time, BG was better defensively and as such, was put on the better offensive player, which most of the time was a SG. Naturally, when Kirk was in with BG, Kirk guarded the better offensive player since he was the better defender. Works in a very logical manner. At the end of the day, in that year, Kirk was the best defender out of the 3 (duh), BG was average at best, and Rose was...not very good (though he had far more highlight blocks than BG due to sheer athleticism).

As for BG being a combo guard...he is so only in terms of being a SG in a PG's body. BG is in pretty much all regards a SG.

 

[X]

I'm confused, who did he guard when Rose was in the game? In 08/09, he guarded SG's almost exclusively. He switched in the past because Kirk was the better defender(no arguement) and kirk, like BG was a combo guard and guarded both spots. What is wrong with the better defender guarding the better player? Last year, Kirk took the better defender between him and Rose, does that make Rose just a slasher?

Dude, Kirk was out for half the year. All the games I showed were games where BG started at SG and played sg for 35+min. He was guarding sgs with Rose on the floor. I never say Rose guarding Kobe.

And again, you never showed me a game he got lit up. Something that should be so easy to do with a bad defender. He is clearly average. If he were such a liability, we couldn't have had such a good defense with him playing a lot of min in 06/07. Your arguement sounds like a good summary of him as a rookie. Not really true in his last years here.

How about all 7 games of the series against the celtics? Just looking over the stats of Allen and Rondo over the series, they combined to average something like 36 points, 16 assists, 12 rebounds. You're welcome to look at the box scores. Allen had a 51 pt game, Rondo had a 19-12-16 game, and a 25-11-11 game...
but it doesn't matter...b/c you're just going to say BG wasn't the only one guarding them...and they're elite players, and on and on...

Why don't you show me a few games where he DID shut down a few players?

 

[TheStig]

How about all 7 games of the series against the celtics? Just looking over the stats of Allen and Rondo over the series, they combined to average something like 36 points, 16 assists, 12 rebounds. You're welcome to look at the box scores. Allen had a 51 pt game, Rondo had a 19-12-16 game, and a 25-11-11 game...
but it doesn't matter...b/c you're just going to say BG wasn't the only one guarding them...and they're elite players, and on and on...

Why don't you show me a few games where he DID shut down a few players?

Yes, BG had a torn hamstring for half the series. Kinda hard to run around screens when your injured. But you did find one game where BG got lit up. Of course Allen lit up the defensive greatness of Kirk too. But out of 89 games that year. I'd consider it fairly good that he only got lit up once. And Rondo was mainly guarded by Rose, so I'd hold BG responsible for Allen. But while you cite the 51 point game, what about game one where BG held Allen to 1 for 12 shooting and 4 pts or game 5 with 3/8 and 10 points. Not to mention the first few games after kirk got injured that i showed you earlier. 1 out 89 is pretty good for a horrible defender. Especially considering kirk couldn't slow him down either.

I'm not saying BG is a complete player. He has flaws. But he isn't a defensive liability or a one trick pony. If he was, he'd have never put up over 20 ppg and would get killed defensively more often than not. He is what he is, a good scorer and average defender. He doesn't create for others, he is never gonna make a all defensive team or kill you defensively. He is a good player, I'd have not problem having him here on his current deal. He'd be an excellent third option and guy to stretch the floor.

 

[TheStig]

nice clean argument by both sides.

nice to see.

Thanks ref

 

[JCM]

Thanks ref

:buttrock:

yeah sometimes it gets to dirty with all the profanity and stuff in the boards.

like x said, very refreshing to see a good clean argument.