Brenly Won't Miss Ramirez

[Rice Cube]

Aramis Ramirez Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com

vs.

Ron Santo Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com

Numbers are relative, I guess. I'm not saying Aramis Ramirez is Ron Santo...Aramis sucks at defense and Santo played in a deadball era. Aramis also doesn't like to walk. But I don't see how you could say that Aramis didn't perform when his bat is basically what got the Cubs to the playoffs the past three times. His injury in 2009 derailed the season. That's really all we were trying to say, is that he won't be easily replaced even if you find someone who knows how to play defense at the hot corner.

 

[Uman85]

And all I'm trying to say is Ramirez is not some "all-star" or elite player that is the whole team. He's been good, but he's not the player that a lot of people seem to make him out to be.

 

[nwfisch]

I just feeling like letting Ramirez go now, wouldn't make the Cubs much worse than they already are now. Signing him for a rebuilding project delays a prospects development at 3B.

 

[Rice Cube]

I just feeling like letting Ramirez go now, wouldn't make the Cubs much worse than they already are now. Signing him for a rebuilding project delays a prospects development at 3B.

Which prospect?

Blake DeWitt? He can't play defense either. And he can't hit.

DJ LeMahieu? No power yet.

Do you shift Castro over? He doesn't have the power yet either even though it's developing.

Jeff Baker? Lulz.

Josh Vitters? He apparently sucks at defense and can't walk to save his life.

Marquez Smith? Yeah, that'd be nice, but he's getting old now.

We could wait a bit for Baez, but that's a few years away unless he hits his way onto the team in spring training. Very unlikely.

I don't think the Cubs should bother keeping Aramis either unless they are looking to contend, but don't act like replacing him is going to be so easy.

 

[nwfisch]

Which prospect?

Blake DeWitt? He can't play defense either. And he can't hit.

DJ LeMahieu? No power yet.

Do you shift Castro over? He doesn't have the power yet either even though it's developing.

Jeff Baker? Lulz.

Josh Vitters? He apparently sucks at defense and can't walk to save his life.

Marquez Smith? Yeah, that'd be nice, but he's getting old now.

We could wait a bit for Baez, but that's a few years away unless he hits his way onto the team in spring training. Very unlikely.

I don't think the Cubs should bother keeping Aramis either unless they are looking to contend, but don't act like replacing him is going to be so easy.

Using the WAR metric, Ramirez was worth about 4 wins this season. I'd say he's worth more than that.

I'll say he's worth 7, about 10% of the Cubs wins.

I don't see the big difference between a 71 win team with an aging 3B vs a 64 win team with a prospect at 3B.

His numbers are nice to have, but that's exactly what they are, numbers.

 

[dabynsky]

Lee's postseason success have been greater than Ramirez's, and Ramirez's lows have been greater than Lee's.

I can't make up numbers for Aramis' postseason production, I would love to, unfortunately what's there is what's there.

Who has the bigger lows is not the issue. No one is asking you to make up numbers. The issue is what do those numbers mean? Do they mean that Ramirez is likely to perform badly if he is on team in the playoffs in the future? That is the only issue that I care about is what does that mean for his production going forward.

Lmao. He's not a great player to begin with. I don't get the love affair with him, but whatever. Not going to argue about Ramirez again.

Your comments here have nothing to do with the discussion that we are having about what does the Ramirez's postseason numbers mean, and you fail to live up to your promise at the end of the comment.

His performance(or lack thereof) tells me more about him than his regular season numbers which aren't great in the first place. Good, not great.

This is the point that you guys keep bringing up, but then fail to address all the other players that have had better careers than Ramirez but had similar production in the postseason. The point isn't Ramirez is as good or better than the guys that I and Rice Cube have brought up. The issue is what does Ramirez's production in the postseason tell us about the talent and future production of Ramirez, and the answer to that question is virtually nothing if you are willing to look at the evidence objectively.

And all I'm trying to say is Ramirez is not some "all-star" or elite player that is the whole team. He's been good, but he's not the player that a lot of people seem to make him out to be.

What I've made him out to be is the best available option for the Cubs for next year. No one has provided anyone that the Cubs can realistically get that is better option than Ramirez. The argument is that Ramirez's lack of postseason success keeps getting brought up as this reason why we shouldn't want him back at this point. And as we've shown with example after example is that the small sample size of the playoffs means that even great players (not debating whether Ramirez is great or not at this point) can have bad postseasons, and that it is silly to use that as a criteria to determine whether this team is better or worse with Ramirez.

 

[dabynsky]

Using the WAR metric, Ramirez was worth about 4 wins this season. I'd say he's worth more than that.

I'll say he's worth 7, about 10% of the Cubs wins.

I don't see the big difference between a 71 win team with an aging 3B vs a 64 win team with a prospect at 3B.

His numbers are nice to have, but that's exactly what they are, numbers.

I can agree with the argument that if we are rebuilding it makes sense to let Ramirez go and play a kid. What some have seem to been arguing is some ridiculous notion of addition by subtraction with Ramirez? That somehow by letting a guy that was top 5 offensive production for his position last season is going to make this team better. That is what is silly, and what I've been arguing strongly against.

 

[Rice Cube]

Using the WAR metric, Ramirez was worth about 4 wins this season. I'd say he's worth more than that.

I'll say he's worth 7, about 10% of the Cubs wins.

I don't see the big difference between a 71 win team with an aging 3B vs a 64 win team with a prospect at 3B.

His numbers are nice to have, but that's exactly what they are, numbers.

You aren't understanding WAR then. And you missed the point where I said he should leave if this team doesn't plan to contend next season. If they do plan to contend, there are few better 3B out there even if you factor in defense. If they don't, then by all means, put out a fail team, we need the high draft pick anyway for Theo/whoever's rebuild anyway. But a four-win player doesn't come by that easily.

Also, saying "numbers are just numbers" is a really lazy way to make an argument. How else are you supposed to evaluate a player if not for his numbers? Are we to believe that a player's ability to walk old ladies across the street and give lollipops to children is going to make him hit x more home runs? Or maybe if he gets his uniform dirty by a factor of y, that means he'll get you one extra win?

I guess nobody gives Ozzie Smith crap for his postseason performances because his teams won.

Ozzie Smith Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com

I also suppose this guy was better because he put up intangibles rather than numbers and had a better postseason batting line:

Mark DeRosa Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com

 

[nwfisch]

I can agree with the argument that if we are rebuilding it makes sense to let Ramirez go and play a kid. What some have seem to been arguing is some ridiculous notion of addition by subtraction with Ramirez? That somehow by letting a guy that was top 5 offensive production for his position last season is going to make this team better. That is what is silly, and what I've been arguing strongly against.

What it boils down to is how much the Cubs value Aramis. According to what I read on here, $16M would be about fair value.

I just don't see it being justified to pay Aramis money to keep the Cubs at 71 wins, I'd rather spend the money on starting pitching and an adequate 3B to get the Cubs closer to 81 wins.

 

[Uman85]

All hail dabynsky. He is never wrong on the internet! :bowrofl:

 

[Rice Cube]

What it boils down to is how much the Cubs value Aramis. According to what I read on here, $16M would be about fair value.

I just don't see it being justified to pay Aramis money to keep the Cubs at 71 wins, I'd rather spend the money on starting pitching and an adequate 3B to get the Cubs closer to 81 wins.

This doesn't matter. He's already said he doesn't want the Cubs to pick up the option and he'll void it if they do. That will save the Cubs money. The question is whether he's worth a 3 year/$40ish million investment if they do want to contend. If the Cubs plan to rebuild, you don't have to worry about Aramis Ramirez.

 

[Uman85]

Bob Brenly.

#winning

 

[Rice Cube]

Bob Brenly.

#winning thanks to Schilling and Johnson and despite continuing to rely on a shell-shocked Byung-hyun Kim

 

[Uman85]

Exactly. Pitching won for him. Something the Cubs need. $16M should be spent on the area that needs the most help.

 

[Rice Cube]

Unless those pitchers can also hit home runs, you're going to need someone who can score runs for them :lol:

 

[Uman85]

Unless those pitchers can also hit home runs, you're going to need someone who can score runs for them :lol:

Because Ramirez is the ONLY player on the Cubs who can bring in runs. He's the ENTIRE team. :lol:

 

[nwfisch]

The Cubs still have Zambrano

Put him at 3B.

 

[Rice Cube]

Because Ramirez is the ONLY player on the Cubs who can bring in runs. He's the ENTIRE team. :lol:

Look at the Cubs leaderboards and think about it for a moment. Few people actually want Carlos Pena back. Nobody wants Soriano. Of the folks that are left, and if you're not going to contend, who is there to drive in runs? Darwin Barney?

Cubs

Of course, if they're not contending, Aramis is gone anyway so nobody has to worry.

 

[Uman85]

Look at the Cubs leaderboards and think about it for a moment. Few people actually want Carlos Pena back. Nobody wants Soriano. Of the folks that are left, and if you're not going to contend, who is there to drive in runs? Darwin Barney?

Cubs

Of course, if they're not contending, Aramis is gone anyway so nobody has to worry.

If you're not going to contend, it's irrelevant.

If you are going to contend and Ramirez is gone, the front office will fill the void on offense. There are two guys named Albert and Prince. I've heard they're pretty good. There are players out there to fill the hole on offense. His D is a liability that could be plugged while adding offense at another position.

 

[derosabomb]

All hail dabynsky. He is never wrong on the internet! :bowrofl:

why are trying to be like dewcawks?