Chicago Cubs Hot Stove Offseason Thread

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DewsSox79

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He's only played 1 recent season in the NL. And EVERY season he's playing in the NL is good, in the last decade.


Okay, ignore the stats. That's cool too.

2009 he was good.
2005 was the previous nl stint, 4.42 ERA in the NL! oh but he had a lot of strike outs....please :rolleyes:

and before that was a million years ago, ya know humans, including pitchers do age.
 

Captain Obvious

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2009 he was good.
2005 was the previous nl stint, 4.42 ERA in the NL! oh but he had a lot of strike outs....please :rolleyes:

and before that was a million years ago, ya know humans, including pitchers do age.

Or we could use good stats, such as FIP and see that he pitched better than his ERA indicates. That 3.31 xFip looks pretty damn good.

I know he would age, which is exactly why I don't want him. However, he would kill in the NL... if we could get him on a 1 year deal, I would be all over that. After that, it's not worth it, with the kids we have about to come up.
 

Lefty

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Oh for god's sake, you don't need all these extra things to see that pitchers improve as they come to Wrigley... a hitter's park. It's that simple.

No, you don't. But you do need those things to say with any confidence whatsoever that Larry Rohschild was the cause of those better performances. Simply seeing a correlation and immediately attaching whatever cause first presents itself (though I admit the pitching coach is a logical choice, if not a bit brash) is a trap that many SABR-minded people fall into. Is there a correlation between pitching performance and Larry Rothschild? Yes, but absolutely no causation has been proven, only implied based on minimal-depth looks into the topic. And even after all those things are accounted for (change in venue, age, change in league, etc.), what remains to be demonstrated is that the change in pitching performance people want to attribute to Rothschild (here from the perspective of the individual pitchers) are out of the ordinary, that not all or not even a goodly amount of pitchers experience similar rises in performance after a "change in scenery".


Ummm, did you even bother to read that article outside of the big table? Specifically, this part?

Unfortunately, HR/PA did not become reliable at the samples that were studied (up to 750 plate appearances). Its correlation at 750 batters faced was .3. Although the samples won't reflect reliably an improvement or worsening in home run rate, we can still look at it just for fun.

Let me give you some idea as to how completely unreliable that is when applied to players with at most 750 PA's (or 12 members of the sample): from year to year (or however they broke it down, from start to start or batter to batter, whatever), the previous HR/PA mark set by that individual can only explain about 9% of the value of the next cycle's HR/PA. That is hardly the mark of a repeatable skill--at least at those sample sizes--and to extrapolate meaning from statistics garnered in such small sample sizes (many of which are far less than the 750 maximum) is utterly erroneous.

And oh yeah, where is the adjustment for the HR/PA rate of the pitchers before their time with the Cubs? Take Ted Lilly, for example, the numbers, as presented, would have you believe that Rothschild had Lilly giving up HR's at a lesser rate, but for the vast majority of his career up until that point, he had been playing his home games in the Rogers Centre, a stadium that inflates homers even more than Wrigley. So really, his slight decrease in HR rate is completely attributable to his change in venue, and not necessarily Rothschild's influence.
 
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Jntg4

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Damn it CO, y'know there are other reasons than Rothschild for a pitcher's success. And Wrigley looked like more of a neutral park than a hitter's park last year.
 

Captain Obvious

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Damn it CO, y'know there are other reasons than Rothschild for a pitcher's success. And Wrigley looked like more of a neutral park than a hitter's park last year.

Neutral Park? It was the 3rd most hitters park in the MLB, behind Coors and Yankee Stadium.

I'm not saying he is the reason they have success, I am saying that he is a good pitching coach, because pitchers who pitch for him, improve.
 
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DewsSox79

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1)larry is gone

2)there is a thread about it, discuss it there.
 

Capt. Serious

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he wants a 3 year 33 million dollar deal. :rofl:

Hendry is calling as we speak...
ssst.gif
 

Lefty

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I'm not saying he is the reason they have success, I am saying that he is a good pitching coach, because pitchers who pitch for him, improve.

:obama:

You still cannot separate "correlation" and "causation". The notion that "pitchers improve on teams that have Larry Rothschild" is valid, to a certain extent. However, the notion that "pitchers improve on teams that have Larry Rothschild because of Larry Rothschild" has not been shown to be valid to any extent whatsoever.
 

Capt. Serious

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:obama:

You still cannot separate "correlation" and "causation". The notion that "pitchers improve on teams that have Larry Rothschild" is valid, to a certain extent. However, the notion that "pitchers improve on teams that have Larry Rothschild because of Larry Rothschild" has not been shown to be valid to any extent whatsoever.

Facts & CO don't mix silly. :D
 

waldo7239117

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Hendry is calling as we speak...
ssst.gif

2 years ago. if JH had a lot of interest in him, yes. But, if he did that not, Rickett will fire his ass so fast. Also, JH does not have too much interest in him, so he wouldn't be a dumb ass in this case.

I guess Javier should go to Japan, he might get it there because he's not getting it in the US anywhere...period.
 

Jntg4

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Na, go to Ireland instead. The Irish Baseball League sucks so bad any of us could be the MVP over there.
 

Captain Obvious

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:obama:

You still cannot separate "correlation" and "causation". The notion that "pitchers improve on teams that have Larry Rothschild" is valid, to a certain extent. However, the notion that "pitchers improve on teams that have Larry Rothschild because of Larry Rothschild" has not been shown to be valid to any extent whatsoever.

Except that's not what I said. I said that pitchers who pitch for him improve. That is not saying that because they are pitching for him they improve because of him. That's saying that pitchers who pitch for him, improve. It doesn't state why, just that they improve.
 

Lefty

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Except that's not what I said. I said that pitchers who pitch for him improve. That is not saying that because they are pitching for him they improve because of him. That's saying that pitchers who pitch for him, improve. It doesn't state why, just that they improve.

Oh please, you've been going on and on in this thread about how good of a pitcher James Shields would be because Larry Rothschild is his pitching coach, and you've posted bullshit number study after bullshit number study to back up just exactly that. Never in the history of anything has there been a more clear backtrack.

And even saying "pitchers improve under Rothschild" is a crediting of Rothschild that he doesn't deserve, because it inherently means that Rothschild had something to do with their improvement. Your whole point is unfounded and just outright asinine. Try again.
 

Lefty

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Yeah, but playing in Wrigley allows him to work with Larry Rothschild everyday.

By playing in Wrigley, that makes him a Cub, as a Cub, his pitching coach will be Larry Rothschild, one of the best in the business.

Well, all we are doing is predicting and projecting, so you can't prove much, but he'll be around a proven pitching coach, who has had proven success.

Larry Rothschild and Strikeouts | Community – FanGraphs Baseball

Larry Rothschild and Walks | June

Yeah, you totally weren't arguing that Shields would be better because of Larry Rothschild or anything. :rolleyes:
 

Captain Obvious

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Oh please, you've been going on and on in this thread about how good of a pitcher James Shields would be because Larry Rothschild is his pitching coach, and you've posted bullshit number study after bullshit number study to back up just exactly that. Never in the history of anything has there been a more clear backtrack.

And even saying "pitchers improve under Rothschild" is a crediting of Rothschild that he doesn't deserve, because it inherently means that Rothschild had something to do with their improvement. Your whole point is unfounded and just outright asinine. Try again.

I was addressing that specific post, Lefty. Don't get your panties in a bunch.

I would like for you to prove that Rothschild doesn't deserve that credit. You have said that all the information is not there, but I would like for you to please show me something that says Rothschild isn't the cause of the improvement of these pitchers.

My whole point is based on the current statistics we have available to use, the current studies that have been done. If that is asinine, I would love to hear what isn't.
 

Capt. Serious

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When he doesn't turn around a turd like Burnett, then you'll realize he's not a god that you make him out to be.
 

Lefty

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I was addressing that specific post, Lefty. Don't get your panties in a bunch.

I would like for you to prove that Rothschild doesn't deserve that credit. You have said that all the information is not there, but I would like for you to please show me something that says Rothschild isn't the cause of the improvement of these pitchers.

My whole point is based on the current statistics we have available to use, the current studies that have been done. If that is asinine, I would love to hear what isn't.

Well, the HR-rate thing has already been covered, so I don't need to go through that, as for the walk rates, here's what the author isn't explaining fully: the "reliability" of BB/PA numbers at less than 550 BF's is suspect at best. In the article linked in one of the articles (the Cubs fan blog one, I think), it is shown that the correlation coefficient of BB/PA at 550 BF's is somewhere around .70, or an r-squared of only .49, and at 750 BF's that coefficient has only gone up to .789. Now, both of those numbers are good (they're definitely statistically significant), but when someone is looking to affirm their grandiose claims, an r-squared of .49 hardly proves much of anything.

So then, let's take the more-reliable cut-off of 750 and apply it to the data-set for reliability. At that point, 13 of the 21 subjects become unreliable (both in their walk and HR-numbers), and the claim then become based upon the performance of, what, only 8 pitchers? That, again, hardly does much to affirm anything claimed before.

As of right now, the meaning extrapolated from the numbers is dubious because the numbers themselves aren't very reliable on the whole (at least when asked to be the underpinning of sweeping arguments and claims), and when we apply more reasonable thresholds of reliability, the number of reliable data points drops to the point where no non-dubious meaning can be extrapolated anyway.
 
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