Cub's Prospect Watch And Development Discussion Thread

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beckdawg

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I think what happened with hendry was a couple things..

They rushed up a couple of their top players like patterson and pie, and in patterson case ended up possibly in bad luck as it seemed when he was putting it together he got injured and never regained what he had again,

Then it seemed as if he was content on having a veteran team that he traded away any good prospects he had to gain a player.
Not complaining about getting guys like ramirez lee and garza but trading away multiple kids for 1 depletes the system.

when you have a veteran team with no trades as 5/10 or clauses, your stuck with them til end and its harder to trade them for good prospects.

Plus, when your drafting middle of pack every year, your not getting best talents and when owner not giving you the funds to give kids good bonuses, you end up drafting more signables over best available.

There's likely any number or reasons why. But, I think likely one off the things that set them back the most was taking so long to embrace metrics the way other teams did as well as never getting comp picks for FAs that left. If there's one thing this current FO group has done is that it appears they are trying to be ahead of the game on a lot of things. They have been into the under valued pitcher market. They are obviously stocking up on bats rather than pitching.

You could argue that's all fine and well when things work but had they failed I wouldn't have the same opinion. Perhaps that's true but I'm always for trying to think outside the box. I suppose you risk getting to cute though.
 

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SilenceS

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The Cubs dreams were crushed and taken in a different path when they could wait on Wood and Prior anymore. The Cubs essentially in a 3 year span lost two number 1 prospects(Patterson and Prior) and Kerry Wood. It made what Hendry wanted to do completely change. Hendry built a pretty young core team. Coming out of 2003, you were looking at Prior, Wood, Zambrano, and another top 5 prospect in Juan Cruz. Then, you were looking at Aramis Ramirez, Corey Patterson, and Hee Sop Choi. Some busted, some got hurt and Hendry was hurting to get talent quickly. Hate to tell you, if Theo has players like this that bust or get hurt in a 3 year span. The Cubs are in a world of trouble again. That would be like Baez, Russell, and Bryant all getting injured or busting. It was horrible fucking luck.
 

beckdawg

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The Cubs dreams were crushed and taken in a different path when they could wait on Wood and Prior anymore. The Cubs essentially in a 3 year span lost two number 1 prospects(Patterson and Prior) and Kerry Wood. It made what Hendry wanted to do completely change. Hendry built a pretty young core team. Coming out of 2003, you were looking at Prior, Wood, Zambrano, and another top 5 prospect in Juan Cruz. Then, you were looking at Aramis Ramirez, Corey Patterson, and Hee Sop Choi. Some busted, some got hurt and Hendry was hurting to get talent quickly. Hate to tell you, if Theo has players like this that bust or get hurt in a 3 year span. The Cubs are in a world of trouble again. That would be like Baez, Russell, and Bryant all getting injured or busting. It was horrible fucking luck.

I'm less concerned with that and more with the 2003-2010 drafts. I agree injuries happen and if they do especially the way that happened with Wood and Prior it's a huge setback. However, coming away with Ryan Harvey at #6 in 2003, Tyler Colvin at #13 in 2006 and Josh Vitters at #3 in 2007 really hurts. In 2003, Nick Markakis, Paul Maholm, and John Danks were the next 3 picks. That draft looks to have been some what poor but even if you're talking one of the next 3 guys that's some value there. 2006 seems to be a case of poor timing to be semi-average. Max Scherzer went 11th, Tim Lincecum went 10th, and Clayton Kershaw went 7th. In 2007, Matt Wieters went 5th, Jarrod Parker went 9th, Madison Bumgarner went 10th, Jason Heyward went 14th.

Now hindsight is 20/20 and all and I get that. I'm just saying different choices in those 3 drafts lead us to a totally different 2010-11 regardless of Wood and Prior getting hurt. And that's only really looking at years where you should come away with great talent based on top 15 picks. In 2005, Jacoby Ellsbury, Garza and Rasmus were drafted several picks after the cubs picked Mark Pawelek 20th. In 2008, they got Andrew Cashner 19th which is a strong pick especially that late but injuries mounted. However, I'm not sure that's an excuse for him because it's fairly common issue for pitchers(see: half the top 100 pitchers this year). 2009 they came away with Brett Jackson which looked good for a time but has since soured. Shame they didn't pick a handful of picks sooner as supposedly they liked Mike Trout who went 25th that year. And finally, in 2010, they came away with Hayden Simpson 16th. Yet another year where a few wins cost them a shot at some great talent. Chris Sale went 13th. Matt Harvey went 7th.

Ultimately, those drafts got the cubs into this situation. It's one thing to have a franchise setback with Prior and Wood going down. But, gettng very little out of 8 straight 1st round picks is pretty tough to bear. I'm willing to give a pass on Cashner as it has netted Rizzo. I'm not going to speculate on internal issues possibly being present. It's highly likely there was a giant mandate on Hendry to win now especially in the later years so having a focus entirely on the draft wasn't likely. However, those poor drafts lead to them trading Archer, Lee and others for Garza who further depleted their system when they went for it.

Also, a lot of those drafts show it just doesn't pay to be a 75-80 win team. Aside from the potential assets you get from trading away deadline players, you're talking about a number of years where they just drafted too high for several elite talents.
 

SilenceS

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Spending was a huge part of the Tyler Colvin, Hayden Simpson shit. Vitters was a consensus top 3 pick. In fact, Vitters was going 2nd or 3rd no matter what. Hendry was running with half the FO Theo is now and Jason McLeod is just a great scout. We will be hurting bad whenever he leaves to be a GM. Trust me, he is the genius over Theo in the drafting.

Article on Theos picks in Boston.

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/red-sox/post/_/id/15001/soxprospects-theos-best-and-worst-picks
 

beckdawg

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Spending was a huge part of the Tyler Colvin, Hayden Simpson shit. Vitters was a consensus top 3 pick. In fact, Vitters was going 2nd or 3rd no matter what. Hendry was running with half the FO Theo is now and Jason McLeod is just a great scout. We will be hurting bad whenever he leaves to be a GM. Trust me, he is the genius over Theo in the drafting.

Article on Theos picks in Boston.

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/red-sox/post/_/id/15001/soxprospects-theos-best-and-worst-picks

Theo doesn't have to be a genius in drafting as long as he is smart enough to hire someone as good as McLeod. As for consensus picks, obviously the draft is different now but Schwarber most definitely wasn't a consensus #4 pick and all signs thus far are pointing to him being a smart pick. Last year Appel was the consensus #1 pick. At this point Bryant seems like the best player from that draft. Admittedly Bryant was a top 3 pick for sure. I'm just saying just because something is a consensus doesn't mean it's the best pick.

Again, this isn't so much an indictment of Hendry but simply put i'm sure even Hendry himself would suggest those drafts contributed to his demise.
 

SilenceS

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Theo doesn't have to be a genius in drafting as long as he is smart enough to hire someone as good as McLeod. As for consensus picks, obviously the draft is different now but Schwarber most definitely wasn't a consensus #4 pick and all signs thus far are pointing to him being a smart pick. Last year Appel was the consensus #1 pick. At this point Bryant seems like the best player from that draft. Admittedly Bryant was a top 3 pick for sure. I'm just saying just because something is a consensus doesn't mean it's the best pick.

Again, this isn't so much an indictment of Hendry but simply put i'm sure even Hendry himself would suggest those drafts contributed to his demise.

I doubt he cares now a days. A lot of people think he will be a GM again. Also, I dont get your Vitters thing. He was considered the best upside bat in the draft. It was between him and Moustakas and the Royals took Moustakas. Just because he didnt pan doesnt mean at the time he wasnt the right pick.

Also, I highly doubt the Cubs draft Schwarber if Hoffman doesnt have TJS. Also, people need to calm down with Schwarber. What he is doing right now means nothing until he gets to actually same competition. Thats high A or better. KLAW talked about this the other day. His start means very little to scouts. He hasnt played good enough competition for it to mean anything to them.

I get you get excited about certain things, but some you need to let run its course. Most likely, 60 plus percent of out elite prospects will never truly make it. We also are going to have to trade some just to get some pitching. This isnt a knock to you or anything. Also, I am not knocking Schwarber at all. Its just being blown out of proportion. Its what happens when the ML team blows.
 

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Arismendy Alcantara is being promoted while Barney is on paternity leave. It might be just two days he is up, but this is definitely a cookie.
 

CSF77

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Doubt it is a cookie. If it was for a day or two it would have been Watkins.

You don't upend a long term.

I'm having a feeling that it will not be Alcantara being demoted when Barney gets back. I could see a trade or Cog/Olt/Lake/Sweeney demoted.

Looking at it:

Schierholtz plays pretty much full time RF. They will try to trade him and back fill with Kalish.

CF has been influx all year. First Sweeney and Bonifico then Lake/Bonifacio now Sweeney/Ruggiano. It needs some stability.

LF has been Lake and any LH they can plug in.

Looking over the numbers Lake has 10 BB to 89 SO. pretty much 9:1 now. His BA has fallen to .222. He is a very undisciplined hitter and needs to be demoted to work on it with Manny.

That is my 2 cents
 

Meatball

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Looking over the numbers Lake has 10 BB to 89 SO. pretty much 9:1 now. His BA has fallen to .222. He is a very undisciplined hitter and needs to be demoted to work on it with Manny.

That is my 2 cents

He is going to work on his discipline and strikeout problem with a guy that is 15th all time in strikeouts?

Great idea.

Maybe we could bring in Mitch Williams to teach pitchers to work on their strikeout to walk ratios too.
 

CSF77

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Good inputting. Wow

It has more to do with having a good understanding of the strike zone. Hitters are going to SO. Strike zone discipline has more to do with BB.

Even Olt is running a 4:1 ratio for SO:BB. Sure he SO but he also takes walks thus getting on base more. He is at 75 SO 18 BB right now. He still is looking bust though. 4:1 is too high.

Anyways career manny had 1813 SO's. And 1329 BB. 1.36:1 ratio.

Stick that into your corn pipe and smoke it.

He was a very disciplined hitter
 

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He was a good hitter with great power.

Using disciplined in the same sentence with Manny Ramirez, however, is just dumb.

As dumb as anyone that thinks he is going to help young hitters develop.

Stick that into your corn pipe and smoke it.

Well, alright.
 

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He is going to work on his discipline and strikeout problem with a guy that is 15th all time in strikeouts?

Great idea.

Maybe we could bring in Mitch Williams to teach pitchers to work on their strikeout to walk ratios too.
Manny was one of the most feared hitters in the game. Good hitters who have a patient plate approach are going to strike out at a decent clip because they don't mind working counts to get their pitch.
 

CSF77

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Haters are going to hate regardless of the facts presented.
 

CSF77

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He was a good hitter with great power.

Using disciplined in the same sentence with Manny Ramirez, however, is just dumb.

As dumb as anyone that thinks he is going to help young hitters develop.



Well, alright.

Guess that means Theo is the king of dumb then. It was his idea. And most analyst ex-hitters who played with him applaud the decision,

But haters will hate
 

Meatball

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Manny was one of the most feared hitters in the game.

So was Sammy Sosa at one time.

Would you ask him to tutor young hitters on discipline?
 

Meatball

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But haters will hate

Sorry if I don't subscribe to the Theo is a God mantra that seems to go on these days.
 

CSF77

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Manny was one of the most feared hitters in the game. Good hitters who have a patient plate approach are going to strike out at a decent clip because they don't mind working counts to get their pitch.

Kinda. Lake won't take walks so it makes the pitchers job easier.

Think of it this way: if I know he will not take walks I can get away out of the zone the whole at bat. I do not need to even put a ball over the plate because he will swing regardless.

All Lake is doing is helping the pitcher out vs making himself a tough out.

Pitcher vs hitter is like a battle. That is the approach to have. If a pitcher is outside of the zone and the ump is not calling them for strikes then take the pitch. Force the pitcher to go over the plate.

Right now Lake is making it easy for pitchers
 

Meatball

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Kinda. Lake won't take walks so it makes the pitchers job easier.

Think of it this way: if I know he will not take walks I can get away out of the zone the whole at bat. I do not need to even put a ball over the plate because he will swing regardless.

All Lake is doing is helping the pitcher out vs making himself a tough out.

Pitcher vs hitter is like a battle. That is the approach to have. If a pitcher is outside of the zone and the ump is not calling them for strikes then take the pitch. Force the pitcher to go over the plate.

Right now Lake is making it easy for pitchers

You have rare insight into the game.
 
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