Cubs vs. O's IST

[brett05]

If it's nonsense coming from brett, I think it's safe to assume it's serious.

Why u all put up with him....

Anyway CSF77 added on...the NL always has the advantage in IL play

 

[Parade_Rain]

Why u all put up with him....

Anyway CSF77 added on...the NL always has the advantage in IL play

The AL has the advantage in their ballpark with the DH. CSF77 clearly indicated that

 

[CSF77]

I would rather have a DH in both leagues. Just saying. The game has dropped in production and it needs a run boost with out the juice.

Making the DH league wide and standardizing OF dimensions would go far to make the leagues more balanced.

 

[Parade_Rain]

This conversation needs its own thread, imho. How do you get more offense out of pro baseball in general, not just NL, etc. It's a good topic.

 

[SilenceS]

Not to rehash but I was on my phone yesterday. This is for people that want to learn how defensive catcher metrics work. This is a good article. Also, if you go to Castillos stats. He was great last year and has been well above average this year. Like I said, his pitch framing is not that good and needs work.

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/defense/catcher-defense/

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=3256&position=C

 

[brett05]

The AL has the advantage in their ballpark with the DH. CSF77 clearly indicated that

No advantage. They gain nothing. The Nl gains or the AL loses depending on who is home

 

[Parade_Rain]

I don't know whether to post this in the prospects page or this one, because there are nuggets in the article (more than I've C&P'd) that lend themselves to both prospects and proven vets on offense.

“I think the rule of thumb is that it takes at least three years for a young player to become a legitimate major league hitter,” says Kansas City’s Dayton Moore, who has watched some very talented young position players struggle with their hitting development.”
.....
Talking to more than a dozen managers, coaches and general managers, the overwhelming feeling is that it is a lot harder to adjust to hitting on the major league level than any recent period in memory. One oft-cited reason is the incredible scouting preparation. One GM says that where a decade ago teams relied on written advance reports and a little video, now young players are given no time to go unnoticed because of the enormous volume of coordinated video and preparation. “No one is a surprise longer than a three game series,” says one GM.
.....
http://www.gammonsdaily.com/peter-gammons-the-struggles-of-top-prospects-in-mlb/

 

[Parade_Rain]

No advantage. They gain nothing. The Nl gains or the AL loses depending on who is home

The player the NL team would be using as an extra hitter is extremely unlikely to be of the caliber of an Ortiz or an aging Thome or Thomas. The advantage goes to the AL. The disadvantage to the AL playing in an NL park isn't that the AL pitcher is at the dish. It's that power bat DH, who is a defensively liability, needing to be in the lineup and "hidden" on the field, usually at 1B or 3B. Very rarely does a team get the opportunity to have a Nelson Cruz. This is pretty basic stuff.

 

[brett05]

I think this conversation has a lot of value so I am going to try hard and but aside my bias.

The player the NL team would be using as an extra hitter is extremely unlikely to be of the caliber of an Ortiz or an aging Thome or Thomas. The advantage goes to the AL.

No one is saying or implying that the hitter would. The extra hitter is quite a bit better than the pitcher that the NL normally uses. So in an AL park the AL Lineup remains the same, no change. The NLO lineup changes and changes for the better. Advantage NL.

The disadvantage to the AL playing in an NL park isn't that the AL pitcher is at the dish. It's that power bat DH, who is a defensively liability, needing to be in the lineup and "hidden" on the field, usually at 1B or 3B. Very rarely does a team get the opportunity to have a Nelson Cruz. This is pretty basic stuff.

It's both really. The drop from DH to an AL pitcher is tremendous. The NL changes nothing. so the NL doesn;t gain or lose at home but the AL team loses when hitting the NL park.

In general the AL team needs to be concerned with dollar allocation on a hitter while the NL team can improve other areas that the AL team does not have the luxury to do when all things are equal.

Making the DH universal or removing it universally would make the imbalance fair to both leagues. Until then I don't see an easy way to do this outside of letting each league stick with their rules regardless of where the game is played. (AKA the AL always uses the DH and the NL always has the pitcher bat).

 

[Parade_Rain]

No one is saying or implying that the hitter would. The extra hitter is quite a bit better than the pitcher that the NL normally uses. So in an AL park the AL Lineup remains the same, no change. The NLO lineup changes and changes for the better. Advantage NL.

This is where you are off. You are looking at it from the NL adding a hitter compared to their own pitcher. Is that hitter on the Cubs better than Travis Wood? Who is the hitter added? What you are looking at is comparing a team to itself. That isn't the correct comparison. The comparison is who is the extra hitter compared to the AL extra hitter (DH)? Is Matt Szczur a draw against Papi or Cruz? Not even close. The extra hitter(s) NL teams have are the Util/PH type players. Let's say Olt worked out and Valbuena was that Util. How does Valbuena compare to Papi or Martinez? That matchup is a loss for any NL team, not just the Cubs.

Making the DH universal or removing it universally would make the imbalance fair to both leagues. Until then I don't see an easy way to do this outside of letting each league stick with their rules regardless of where the game is played. (AKA the AL always uses the DH and the NL always has the pitcher bat).

Of course it would make it fair. The NL might actually win an ASG and Home Field for the WS.

 

[brett05]

This is where you are off. You are looking at it from the NL adding a hitter compared to their own pitcher.
Is that hitter on the Cubs better than Travis Wood? Who is the hitter added? What you are looking at is comparing a team to itself. That isn't the correct comparison. The comparison is who is the extra hitter compared to the AL extra hitter (DH)?

I am looking at it that way. You are right.

The AL doesn't get an extra hitter. They get to actually use their entire offensive lineup. In the NL they could use their lineup and let the pitcher bat but they choose to bench that individuals and rightfully so without nary an exception and allow a more qualified professional hitter fill the role of DH making the NL lineup better than it normally does.


I think you are looking at it off by comparing an Olt to an Ortiz. That's not the comparisson to be had because the NL can afford to use dollars elsewhere when the AL cannot since they have the DH. That's where the imbalance comes from. The AL and NL use their funds differently, but when it comes to who gets to use what based on parks the AL never gains and can only lose when it comes to using their 25 man team. And likewise with the NL, they never lose and can only gain with their 25 man roster usage.

 

[Parade_Rain]

Since 1988 (25 year span) The AL has won the WS 14 times while the NL has won it 11 times. Easily found many places, including Wiki

Year, Winner, Loser, Series
2013, Boston Red Sox, St. Louis Cardinals, 4-2
2012, San Francisco Giants, Detroit Tigers, 4-0
2011, St. Louis Cardinals, Texas Rangers, 4-3
2010, San Francisco Giants, Texas Rangers, 4-1
2009, New York Yankees, Philadelphia Phillies, 4-2
2008, Philadelphia Phillies, Tampa Bay Rays, 4-1
2007, Boston Red Sox, Colorado Rockies, 4-0
2006, St. Louis Cardinals, Detroit Tigers, 4-1
2005, Chicago White Sox, Houston Astros, 4-0
2004, Boston Red Sox, St. Louis Cardinals, 4-0
2003, Florida Marlins, New York Yankees, 4-2
2002, Anaheim Angels, San Francisco Giants, 4-3
2001, Arizona Diamondbacks, New York Yankees, 4-3
2000, New York Yankees, New York Mets, 4-1
1999, New York Yankees, Atlanta Braves, 4-0
1998, New York Yankees, San Diego Padres, 4-0
1997, Florida Marlins, Cleveland Indians, 4-3
1996, New York Yankees, Atlanta Braves, 4-2
1995, Atlanta Braves, Cleveland Indians, 4-2
1993, Toronto Blue Jays, Philadelphia Phillies, 4-2
1992, Toronto Blue Jays, Atlanta Braves, 4-2
1991, Minnesota Twins, Atlanta Braves, 4-3
1990, Cincinnati Reds, Oakland Athletics, 4-0
1989, Oakland Athletics, San Francisco Giants, 4-0
1988, Los Angeles Dodgers, Oakland Athletics, 4-1

Also, from Baseball Reference regarding Interleague play this season-
http://www.baseball-reference.com/

Interleague Play:
AL leads NL 145-125 (1168 runs to 1084)

From MLB.com-
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/history/interleague/records.jsp

Interleague Play Records

Year, AL, NL
1997, 97, 117
1998, 114, 110
1999, 116, 135
2000, 136, 115
2001, 132, 120
2002, 123, 129
2003, 115, 137
2004, 126, 125
2005, 136, 116
2006, 154, 98
2007, 137, 115
2008, 149, 103
2009, 137, 114
2010, 134, 118
2011, 131, 121
2012, 142, 110

Notice that outside of 1997, 1999, 2002 and 2003, the AL has beaten the NL.

There is very little to no evidence that supports your assertion that NL has the advantage over the AL in Interleague play.

 

[brett05]

Since 1988 (25 year span) The AL has won the WS 14 times while the NL has won it 11 times. Easily found many places, including Wiki

Year, Winner, Loser, Series
2013, Boston Red Sox, St. Louis Cardinals, 4-2
2012, San Francisco Giants, Detroit Tigers, 4-0
2011, St. Louis Cardinals, Texas Rangers, 4-3
2010, San Francisco Giants, Texas Rangers, 4-1
2009, New York Yankees, Philadelphia Phillies, 4-2
2008, Philadelphia Phillies, Tampa Bay Rays, 4-1
2007, Boston Red Sox, Colorado Rockies, 4-0
2006, St. Louis Cardinals, Detroit Tigers, 4-1
2005, Chicago White Sox, Houston Astros, 4-0
2004, Boston Red Sox, St. Louis Cardinals, 4-0
2003, Florida Marlins, New York Yankees, 4-2
2002, Anaheim Angels, San Francisco Giants, 4-3
2001, Arizona Diamondbacks, New York Yankees, 4-3
2000, New York Yankees, New York Mets, 4-1
1999, New York Yankees, Atlanta Braves, 4-0
1998, New York Yankees, San Diego Padres, 4-0
1997, Florida Marlins, Cleveland Indians, 4-3
1996, New York Yankees, Atlanta Braves, 4-2
1995, Atlanta Braves, Cleveland Indians, 4-2
1993, Toronto Blue Jays, Philadelphia Phillies, 4-2
1992, Toronto Blue Jays, Atlanta Braves, 4-2
1991, Minnesota Twins, Atlanta Braves, 4-3
1990, Cincinnati Reds, Oakland Athletics, 4-0
1989, Oakland Athletics, San Francisco Giants, 4-0
1988, Los Angeles Dodgers, Oakland Athletics, 4-1

Also, from Baseball Reference regarding Interleague play this season-
http://www.baseball-reference.com/



From MLB.com-
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/history/interleague/records.jsp

Interleague Play Records


Notice that outside of 1997, 1999, 2002 and 2003, the AL has beaten the NL.

There is very little to no evidence that supports your assertion that NL has the advantage over the AL in Interleague play.

So for me that just shows the AL being better. Imagine how much better they would be if not for the unbalance?

 

[TL1961]

I would rather have a DH in both leagues. Just saying. The game has dropped in production and it needs a run boost with out the juice.

Making the DH league wide and standardizing OF dimensions would go far to make the leagues more balanced.

Standardized outfield dimensions aren't feasible. You'd have to take the minimum dimension at all points and have every field bring the fences IN to those points - i.e. Fenway's short RF line, Wrigley's power alleys, etc. - and it would result in all fields being too small.

The alternative would be to modify those with shorter dimensions by knocking out and reshaping outfield walls. Simply can't happen.

The only way to ever have done this would be to regulate all new parks, but we're 20-25 years too late, as nearly every team has built within that time period, and only Atlanta is building twice in 20 years.

 

[CSF77]

No advantage. They gain nothing. The Nl gains or the AL loses depending on who is home

The only way a NL team can keep even is storing a DH in AAA to keep his timing right. Say next year they keep Olt at 1B bring him in for DH then send him down. Next year use Vogy in that situation.

That is the only way it will work in season. WS is another story. Got to walk before running so a lesser concern.

 

[brett05]

The only way a NL team can keep even is storing a DH in AAA to keep his timing right. Say next year they keep Olt at 1B bring him in for DH then send him down. Next year use Vogy in that situation.

That is the only way it will work in season. WS is another story. Got to walk before running so a lesser concern.

Keep even? The NL is always ahead

 

[CSF77]

Keep even? The NL is always ahead

I wouldn't say that. A NL team going into a AL park with a part time player as the DH? VS a full time DH that AVG's 25-30 HR's?

 

[chibears55]

Again, I dont see any side having an advantage...

Pitchers still need to pitch, all hitters need to hit whether there a pitcher hitting in lineup or an extra hitter..

 

[brett05]

I wouldn't say that. A NL team going into a AL park with a part time player as the DH? VS a full time DH that AVG's 25-30 HR's?

The nl team improved its lineup, no? The AL team finally gets to use the lineup it allocated money for. That equates to no improvement for the AL and an improvement for the NL.

 

[Parade_Rain]

The nl team improved its lineup, no? The AL team finally gets to use the lineup it allocated money for. That equates to no improvement for the AL and an improvement for the NL.

There you go again, comparing a team to itself instead of the competition it plays.