Derrick Rose: Youngest MVP Ever!

[houheffna]

Even LeBron James, himself, said earlier in the season that he and Wade are pretty much going to be out of the mainstream running for the MVP award for the remainder of their time together in Miami.

And if Miami loads up and gets a Tyson Chandler-caliber center and an Aaron Brooks-caliber point guard (and run off near 70 wins and win titles) it will likely as a whole hurt James' and Wade's independant value on the Heat.

That has nothing to do with whether he deserves it or not. The real reason he wouldn't get the award, the same reason Kobe was robbed of it in the past...the media doesn't want him to have it. Plain and simple. At the time he didn't anticipate Rose being a lasting MVP candidate I'm sure...nobody expected that. My point was at the time, I felt he deserved the MVP. He was playing the best basketball in the league. The Wade argument is pretty much nullified by the fact that Lebron was the best player in the league before going to play with Wade and he has been the most valuable player on one of the leagues best teams...in my opinion. Wade's great play didn't sink Lebron's chances, messing up at the end of those games sunk his chances....

 

[Anytime23]

Youre just too stubborn to admit that you were wrong at the time about Rose vs Lebron. You made a thread telling us all to face to facts, Lebron is MVP. No opinion, a statement of fact and you wanted us all to clime aboard your own opinion. There was probably 2 maybe 3 weeks were people had LeBron over Rose but for a majority of the Season, its been all Rose. I bring up the old post because i like to. I didnt like your pompous, knee jerk LeBron MVP thread. I dont like your im right, youre wrong arguments vs some of our posters here over the past season. I dont like your contradiction of a sig line. Its very internet gangstereque.

"What am I wrong about? My opinion on who the MVP is? Give me a damn break,"
Face the FACTS gentleman....Ring a bell. FACT-Opinion, which one is it?

And i dont care who agreed with you when. In this thread you will see a couple posters mention how theres no point in arguing with you because you claim to be right all the time.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

the great thing about arguing with houheffna is that he's holding all the cards. If you argue using stats, he points out that he's over and above stats. He watches the game. Ahhh, the great basketball mystic, using intuition when it's convenient. Why are you wrong, cause hou watched the game, and he saw it with his own eyes. Never mind how often he's the victim of intuition's folly. Jr smith is a good defender!

Although hou often brings up some good points, i think we all better realize something that everyone from the bullspodcasters learned a long time ago, stop arguing with hou. it's not worth it.

I lol'd

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

That has nothing to do with whether he deserves it or not. The real reason he wouldn't get the award, the same reason Kobe was robbed of it in the past...the media doesn't want him to have it. Plain and simple. At the time he didn't anticipate Rose being a lasting MVP candidate I'm sure...nobody expected that. My point was at the time, I felt he deserved the MVP. He was playing the best basketball in the league. The Wade argument is pretty much nullified by the fact that Lebron was the best player in the league before going to play with Wade and he has been the most valuable player on one of the leagues best teams...in my opinion. Wade's great play didn't sink Lebron's chances, messing up at the end of those games sunk his chances....

You are arguing on multiple cylinders here. I'm arguing on why he doesn't deserve it. Not why I think he won't get it.

I think the main problem people have is that they didn't agree with what you were saying in your 'LeBron is the MVP, people' thread.

Being the best player in the league... yeah yeah yeah. That isn't the point and it never was. Missing all of those shots sure didn't help James' MVP cause. I'm sure some irrational people who vote on the award will use that as basis for their decision not to vote for him, but, again, that's not really the point about what I was saying.

Rose is the MVP because he doesn't have a Wade to take his place. And he has a better system around him than Howard and Nowitzki that allows him to put his team over the edge and rack up victories.

 

[Frank Breakfast Styleham]

Guys take it easy on Hou.

I understood what he was saying. GIve the guy a break.

BECAUSE YOU SAID SOME STUPID ASS SHIT AND I DISAGREED WITH YOU! CASE CLOSED!!! I didn't say you were stupid, or the prerequisite "you're not a real bulls fan" crap...I just said in essence that is a dumb ass reason to say another person shouldn't make the post. That is all there is to that...

 

[houheffna]

Youre just too stubborn to admit that you were wrong at the time about Rose vs Lebron. You made a thread telling us all to face to facts, Lebron is MVP. No opinion, a statement of fact and you wanted us all to clime aboard your own opinion. There was probably 2 maybe 3 weeks were people had LeBron over Rose but for a majority of the Season, its been all Rose. I bring up the old post because i like to. I didnt like your pompous, knee jerk LeBron MVP thread. I dont like your im right, youre wrong arguments vs some of our posters here over the past season. I dont like your contradiction of a sig line. Its very internet gangstereque.

"What am I wrong about? My opinion on who the MVP is? Give me a damn break,"
Face the FACTS gentleman....Ring a bell. FACT-Opinion, which one is it?

And i dont care who agreed with you when. In this thread you will see a couple posters mention how theres no point in arguing with you because you claim to be right all the time.

I didn't want you to climb aboard anything...he was playing the best basketball in the league. He has played the best basketball in the league if you look at what he has done, the last losing streak hurt his chances, but Lebron was and is playing at an MVP level. And what good is a debate if I don't think the person I am debating is wrong? What sense does that make?

It is a fact that NO player has ever won MVP and not won at least one player of the month award. To say that Lebron has played the best basketball all year is not far-fetched at all.

And don't act as if I have treated posters on this site so badly, get that victim b.s. out of here! If you say something stupid, I might just call you on it...as people have done to me, with lots of vitriol I might add. But I have no problem letting someone know they are off base.

 

[houheffna]

You are arguing on multiple cylinders here. I'm arguing on why he doesn't deserve it. Not why I think he won't get it.

I think the main problem people have is that they didn't agree with what you were saying in your 'LeBron is the MVP, people' thread.

Being the best player in the league... yeah yeah yeah. That isn't the point and it never was. Missing all of those shots sure didn't help James' MVP cause. I'm sure some irrational people who vote on the award will use that as basis for their decision not to vote for him, but, again, that's not really the point about what I was saying.

Rose is the MVP because he doesn't have a Wade to take his place. And he has a better system around him than Howard and Nowitzki that allows him to put his team over the edge and rack up victories.

That is your idea of what an MVP is...and I didn't disagree. A month and a half ago it didn't matter what system Rose played in (which is more an indictment against him than anything else). You are looking at most valuable to his team, this is the LEAGUE MVP. And it has more meaning to it than that for some people. Who is playing the best basketball individually that year plays a part in that decision also.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

That is your idea of what an MVP is...and I didn't disagree. A month and a half ago it didn't matter what system Rose played in (which is more an indictment against him than anything else). You are looking at most valuable to his team, this is the LEAGUE MVP. And it has more meaning to it than that for some people. Who is playing the best basketball individually that year plays a part in that decision also.

I am looking at it through the looking glass of which player has been responsible for the most wins due to his presense in the league this season. Minus how many losses a player is responsible for. I am confident to say that most games the Bulls and Heat have lost this year would have been losses despite Rose or James screwing up down the stretch, so that "losses" aspect generally doesn't matter.

There is a positive correlation between being the best player in the NBA and value. But that shouldn't be a judging point in itself, in my opinion. I don't think you would disagree with that?

 

[Anytime23]

I didn't want you to climb aboard anything...he was playing the best basketball in the league. He has played the best basketball in the league if you look at what he has done, the last losing streak hurt his chances, but Lebron was and is playing at an MVP level. And what good is a debate if I don't think the person I am debating is wrong? What sense does that make?

It is a fact that NO player has ever won MVP and not won at least one player of the month award. To say that Lebron has played the best basketball all year is not far-fetched at all.

And don't act as if I have treated posters on this site so badly, get that victim b.s. out of here! If you say something stupid, I might just call you on it...as people have done to me, with lots of vitriol I might add. But I have no problem letting someone know they are off base.

You dont treat posters wrong, you just act like youre above everyone. I have time and time again stated that im not the most knowledgeable of fans around these parts when it comes to the Xs and Os. But i dont sit around and pretend like my opinion is worth more than someone elses.

I never said LeBron winning MVP is far fetched. I just think it would be dumb for him to win considering the 2nd best player on his team is Dwayne Wade a guy whos been in the MVP convo a couple times in the past. LeBron is the best player in the NBA, ive stated that numerous times but again, the award doesnt go to the best player in the MVP. It goes to a guy whos worth the most to his team. Maybe that isnt true either considering the MVP is usually apart of one of the top seeded teams in the NBA every year. LeBron is a better player than Rose. I dont think he has the same killer instinct as Rose(yes im saying that already) but overall hes better. Defensively hes better. Hes a great passer, scorer, rebounder. Hes the complete package. But if you take him off of the Heat they still have Wade and Bosh, two perennial all-stars and probably the 2nd best players at their positions in the NBA.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

not that lebron isn't one of the best if not the best player in the world...but when he went to miami he really hurt his chances of getting any individual praise imo...

Rose is MVP...although i think Lebron is 2nd...and if he was still in Cleveland he would probably be MVP again imo depending on the Cav's record

 

[houheffna]

You dont treat posters wrong, you just act like youre above everyone. I have time and time again stated that im not the most knowledgeable of fans around these parts when it comes to the Xs and Os. But i dont sit around and pretend like my opinion is worth more than someone elses.

I never said LeBron winning MVP is far fetched. I just think it would be dumb for him to win considering the 2nd best player on his team is Dwayne Wade a guy whos been in the MVP convo a couple times in the past. LeBron is the best player in the NBA, ive stated that numerous times but again, the award doesnt go to the best player in the MVP. It goes to a guy whos worth the most to his team. Maybe that isnt true either considering the MVP is usually apart of one of the top seeded teams in the NBA every year. LeBron is a better player than Rose. I dont think he has the same killer instinct as Rose(yes im saying that already) but overall hes better. Defensively hes better. Hes a great passer, scorer, rebounder. Hes the complete package. But if you take him off of the Heat they still have Wade and Bosh, two perennial all-stars and probably the 2nd best players at their positions in the NBA.

Based on your argument, half of the MVPs wouldn't have won it. Jordan played with the best small forward at that time. Didn't stop him from getting MVP. Magic and Bird won 6 between them, they played with what 7,8 hall of famers between them? Russell played with an allstar team every year. The difference with the Heat is that Lebron makes them contenders, they are not contenders with Wade and Bosh. His presence on that team is understated.

 

[pinkizdead]

Guys take it easy on Hou.

I understood what he was saying. GIve the guy a break.

i often do agree with hou. He's a hard guy to get a long with, but he makes some respectable points. I'm not sure what he's aruging, but if it's lebron deserves the mvp, he's right. he does. just like jordan did. I don't want lebron to have it, but he does. It sucks. If he's arguing that lebron's going to get it, he's wrong. It's a political award. Right now the front runner is rose.

Hou is kind of like socrates in the apology. He's an asshole, but he's an asshole that's often right. It doesn't make him less of an asshole. It makes him an asshole whose ass you want to kick. Hou, don't drink the hemloch.

 

[Anytime23]

Based on your argument, half of the MVPs wouldn't have won it. Jordan played with the best small forward at that time. Didn't stop him from getting MVP. Magic and Bird won 6 between them, they played with what 7,8 hall of famers between them? Russell played with an allstar team every year. The difference with the Heat is that Lebron makes them contenders, they are not contenders with Wade and Bosh. His presence on that team is understated.

Really because i could have swore that Wade alone took a sorry ass Miami Heat team to 7 games vs the Hawks last season. None of the big 3 have played with players of that caliber before.

As far as Jordan goes, youve made that point before and i get it. Honestly i was too young to know what was going around the NBA those days like i do now. Maybe thats the case, i dont know and dont care. The past is the past. Jordan was those finals MVPs and thats all that matters. Fact is that if you took LeBron off the Heat, they still have Wade and Bosh and can still make the playoffs. Maybe the Heat have less growing pains than they have if you dont have LeBron chucking up late game tying/WINNING(Sheen voice)3s and missing makeable layups. How did the Heat get back on track? Wades late game heroics and Boshs willingness to post up more and be more aggressive. The Heat without LeBron kind of give you a little more idea of how the pecking order goes. But we wont know because thats not reality.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Based on your argument, half of the MVPs wouldn't have won it. Jordan played with the best small forward at that time. Didn't stop him from getting MVP. Magic and Bird won 6 between them, they played with what 7,8 hall of famers between them? Russell played with an allstar team every year. The difference with the Heat is that Lebron makes them contenders, they are not contenders with Wade and Bosh. His presence on that team is understated.

The problem is that with no Wade and just James and Bosh, they are also not contenders.

But you are conveniently over-looking that Jordan did not win it every year, despite being the hands-down best player in the NBA. In '93, Barkley won it. In '97, Malone won it.

Nash was never the best player in the league, but he won it twice. Granted, '06 probably should have been Kobe's... but still. It's not like the award is automatically accounting for who the best player in the league is.

I can't really speak as well for the years that Russell won it 5 times. Or the years that Magic and Bird won it. But I do know that the Celtics dominated the league and Russell was an unbelievably intelligent team player, even as an older, slower player in the late '60s. Chamberlain was probably the better player of the two himself. Yet, it was Russell winning those awards... that should tell you something.

 

[houheffna]

Really because i could have swore that Wade alone took a sorry ass Miami Heat team to 7 games vs the Hawks last season. None of the big 3 have played with players of that caliber before.

As far as Jordan goes, youve made that point before and i get it. Honestly i was too young to know what was going around the NBA those days like i do now. Maybe thats the case, i dont know and dont care. The past is the past. Jordan was those finals MVPs and thats all that matters. Fact is that if you took LeBron off the Heat, they still have Wade and Bosh and can still make the playoffs. Maybe the Heat have less growing pains than they have if you dont have LeBron chucking up late game tying/WINNING(Sheen voice)3s and missing makeable layups. How did the Heat get back on track? Wades late game heroics and Boshs willingness to post up more and be more aggressive. The Heat without LeBron kind of give you a little more idea of how the pecking order goes. But we wont know because thats not reality.

You can swear all you want...you would be wrong about Wade's playoff exploits last season. The Heat played the Celtics. And did you see what Lebron did with that Cavs? Have you seen the Cavs this year? They went from beating the Lakers in LA on Christmas Day in 2009 to losing by 55 points a year later.

As for the Jordan/Magic/Bird argument "you don't know and don't care"? Seriously? It's hypocritical of you to overlook the facts after your little tirade about me passing off my opinions as fact...isn't it? You should pay attention to the facts, even when they disprove your argument.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

You can swear all you want...you would be wrong about Wade's playoff exploits last season. The Heat played the Celtics. And did you see what Lebron did with that Cavs? Have you seen the Cavs this year? They went from beating the Lakers in LA on Christmas Day in 2009 to losing by 55 points a year later.

As for the Jordan/Magic/Bird argument "you don't know and don't care"? Seriously? It's hypocritical of you to overlook the facts after your little tirade about me passing off my opinions as fact...isn't it? You should pay attention to the facts, even when they disprove your argument.

The Cavs have been without Anderson Varejao, Mo Williams, and had a hurt/out Anthony Parker all year long practically... And Shaq and Big Z were completely gone... replaced by... J.J. Hickson and J.J. Hickson alone...

And those guys were replaced by GARBAGE. I'm shocked that some of the players in that Lakers' game ever got out of the D-league... are you kidding me?

It wasn't just LeBron James that made that team into a 66-win franchise...

And how about you look at the years when somebody other than Jordan, Magic, Bird, Chamberlain (only like 2-time MVP?), or Russell won the MVP. That happened quite often, by the way.

 

[houheffna]

The Cavs have been without Anderson Varejao, Mo Williams, and had a hurt/out Anthony Parker all year long practically... And Shaq and Big Z were completely gone... replaced by... J.J. Hickson and J.J. Hickson alone...

And those guys were replaced by GARBAGE. I'm shocked that some of the players in that Lakers' game ever got out of the D-league... are you kidding me?

It wasn't just LeBron James that made that team into a 66-win franchise...

And how about you look at the years when somebody other than Jordan, Magic, Bird, Chamberlain (only like 2-time MVP?), or Russell won the MVP. That happened quite often, by the way.

Naw dude, spare me the hurt Anthony Parker b.s. Please spare me on that one. That is garbage. Shaq and Big Z? What have they done for you lately? I rest my case. That was one guy and one guy only. Anthony Parker? Mo Williams without Lebron? Trade bait...period. There was nothing close to an allstar on those teams. Mo went because of Lebron. That was politics at its finest. So if Anthony Parker plays they lose by what? 52? OK!!!

What years are you speaking of with the MVPs? When Barkley and Malone won? When Nash won? My point is the criteria changes, to say Lebron is less deserving because he has Wade is proven to be a very naive notion...by history.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Naw dude, spare me the hurt Anthony Parker b.s. Please spare me on that one. That is garbage. Shaq and Big Z? What have they done for you lately? I rest my case. That was one guy and one guy only. Anthony Parker? Mo Williams without Lebron? Trade bait...period. There was nothing close to an allstar on those teams. Mo went because of Lebron. That was politics at its finest. So if Anthony Parker plays they lose by what? 52? OK!!!

What years are you speaking of with the MVPs? When Barkley and Malone won? When Nash won? My point is the criteria changes, to say Lebron is less deserving because he has Wade is proven to be a very naive notion...by history.

What I'm saying is that you argue on countless bases (namely to ones that best fit whatever you are trying to say) and that it is always a very simple-minded approach.

You will never once acknowledge the possibility that you could (DARE I say it...) be wrong or mistaken.

Therefore it is not worth the time to respond to you. Try admitting somebody else is right about something, or has a point about something, for a change... that is, if you aren't ever going to admit that you might be off-base or wrong-headed about something.

 

[Anytime23]

You can swear all you want...you would be wrong about Wade's playoff exploits last season. The Heat played the Celtics. And did you see what Lebron did with that Cavs? Have you seen the Cavs this year? They went from beating the Lakers in LA on Christmas Day in 2009 to losing by 55 points a year later.

As for the Jordan/Magic/Bird argument "you don't know and don't care"? Seriously? It's hypocritical of you to overlook the facts after your little tirade about me passing off my opinions as fact...isn't it? You should pay attention to the facts, even when they disprove your argument.

Youre right, im getting my years mixed up. It was the year before Wade took a garbage team to 7 against the Hawks. Regardless, hes taken very bad teams to the playoffs.

The Cavs of this year and last are clearly not the same and its not only LeBron. They dont have Z, Shaq, West, Powe. Mo and Moon traded. Andy, Hickson, Parker, Gibson have all dealt with injuries. And yeah if you take the best player in the league off of a team with mediocre talent, they will fall off hard. But how would that 09-10 Heat squad look without Wade for a whole season?

Whats facts disprove my argument? I clearly stated that i dont care because i really cant comment because im not as old as you to have such an in depth argument on how the 80s/90s went down. Fact is that the players of that era arent the players of this one. You cant compare them because we're dealing with a different league with all different players. You make it seem like Jordan/Pippen is the same thing as Lebron/Wade. Im sorry but its not that simple. and didnt Rami already state that Jordan didnt it every year but he clearly was the best player in the NBA(the GOAT really)? So how about those facts?

Stop being a hypocrite, talking about your opinions when in your Lebron thread you said face the F A C T S!

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I was even IN Los Angeles sitting down watching this game with Lakers' fans... at the time of this game.

Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Los Angeles Lakers - Box Score - January 11, 2011 - ESPN

Look at all of the horrendous scrubs who got huge playing time for the Cavs in this game. They were making BEYOND 1st grade level mistakes...................... They looked like they never saw a basketball before in their lives.