DRose Getting The Shaft On Projected MVP Voting

[houheffna]

If there was a player on a 21-61 team that was responsible for nearly every one of those 21 wins, I'd consider that player an MVP candidate of the highest order.

...and you would be the only one. The NBA doesn't look at the franchise player on a 21 win team as a league MVP. Just doesn't work that way.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

That is lazy analysis at its finest. Dirk should win MVP because his team didn't have any other superstars?

Go over the list of MVPs in the league and tell me who would win without having a top level player on their team. Go back to 1980. You totally lose sight of the concept of NBA MVP.

It amazes me, again, in a town that had Jordan playing with Pippen somebody could say that they have problems thinking one of those two is 'valuable'

 

[FirstTimer]

There is no way in hell that Wade is going to help guide the Heat to more wins than Rose will for the Bulls. I'm not saying that Rose is a better player than Wade, but the Bulls are WAY more dependent upon Rose to win basketball games than the Heat are upon Wade.

Don't be stupid.

This has never been what the MVP is about.

If that were the case Kobe would have more than 1.

The MVP has typically always been the "best player in the league this year" award. It's not a basketball WAR award.

Even you should be smart enough to understand this.

It's entierly possible Lebron puts together the best season of anyone in the NBA this year regardless of who is on his team.

Plus LOL at this even being a topic of discussion 2 games into the season.

 

[FirstTimer]

You just nullified half of Jordan's MVP awards. The most valuable isn't pigeonholed to one definition...the criterion is different.

Jordan, Shaq, Kobe...all won MVP awards with top 10 players on their team. Yet they all deserved the award. Having "help" doesn't necessarily mean that the significance of a player to his team lessens. Bird and Magic played with all time greats...6 MVPs between them. Jordan would win a couple as a one man gang, but not all. Malone won 2 with Stockton on his team.

Durant has Westbrook, who is as close to Derrick Rose as it gets. Rose is not expected to have a repeat performance of last year. That may be why he is down on the list so far.

And for the record...Melo trumps Amare...shouldn't even be an argument.

This.

There's a reason Jordan wasn't winning MVP on those awful Bulls teams early in his career...even though he was pretty much the sole reason for them even being near .500. Jordan having Pippen, grant, Pippen Rodman etc didn't stop him from winning 2 MVP's in each of the three peat era's. Especialyl given the fact that the year after Jordan leaves Pippen still lead that team to 55 wins without M Jeff.

Rami again fails at anything basketball related.



I think it's hilarious that on one hand you have people discounting Z-Bo because he's clearly not better than Rose...even though he could be as valuable to the team he plays for...yet on the other hand a player like Lebron who is clearly better than Rose is discounted because he plays with other really good players...even though Jordan did and won MVP's no problem.

This site once again fails at anything having to do with sports discussion.

 

[FirstTimer]

It appears that with this site the criteria for MVP are you have be one of the Top 10 players in the league and play with no other superstars or really good players..which basically runs opposite of everything the MVP has been about for the last 30 some years for the most part.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

It appears that with this site the criteria for MVP are you have be one of the Top 10 players in the league and play with no other superstars or really good players..which basically runs opposite of everything the MVP has been about for the last 30 some years for the most part.

Also, 2 more: Do you play for the Bulls? If yes, add 100 1st place votes. If no, then that player should be killed.

Are you a great player, but because I'm so enamored with thinking the only real basketball being played is on Madison Street I can't ever think of you as being good? If yes, that player should never be considered.

 

[FirstTimer]

Shaquille O Neal was maybe the most dominating player of his era. Perhaps ever.

He has ONE MVP while running on some of th best teams ever and winning 3 straight championships.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Shaquille O Neal was maybe the most dominating player of his era. Perhaps ever.

He has ONE MVP while running on some of th best teams ever and winning 3 straight championships.

Speaking of eras, have you ever read this book?

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/FreeDarko-Presents-Undisputed-Basketball-History/dp/1608190838/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1325171925&sr=1-1]Amazon.com: FreeDarko Presents: The Undisputed Guide to Pro Basketball History (9781608190836): Bethlehem Shoals, Dr. Lawyer IndianChief, Silverbird 5000, Jacob Weinstein: Books[/ame]

Awesome book for any NBA fan to read through.

 

[FirstTimer]

Speaking of eras, have you ever read this book?

Amazon.com: FreeDarko Presents: The Undisputed Guide to Pro Basketball History (9781608190836): Bethlehem Shoals, Dr. Lawyer IndianChief, Silverbird 5000, Jacob Weinstein: Books

Awesome book for any NBA fan to read through.

Fantastic read.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Everybody in the Bulls forum should have to read that book before posting in here again.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

The MVP has typically always been the "best player in the league this year" award.

Absolutely and 100% false.

I'm not even dignifying this with an answer seeing as how all you need to do is look through that list of recipients to realize just how wrong you are.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

...and you would be the only one. The NBA doesn't look at the franchise player on a 21 win team as a league MVP. Just doesn't work that way.

Players have gotten votes on poor teams before. It is theoretically possible that it could happen. The odds of one player being responsible for that many wins is mathematically poor.

In 2003 or 2004, Alex Rodriguez was the second player to win an "MVP" award on a last placed team in a division in MLB history. It certainly could happen in basketball.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

This is for all Chicago sports fans: Please stop being so damn thin-skinned about perceived slights by national media outlets. I stopped caring about that stuff long ago and have had a much happier sports life since then.

When Gaelic is the voice of reason in a thread, you know you have gone off the deep end. If you honestly give a turkey about this, your belated Christmas present is a helmet and a mouth guard so you don't swallow your gigantic tongue.

 

[FirstTimer]

Absolutely and 100% false.

It actually isn't. There's a reason why Barkley won in 1993. Was he better than MJ in general? No Bu the had the best season. If it was about the "best player" in general or "most valuable" Kobe and Shaq ould each have more than one. Dirk would have likely won more as well. Hell, Lebron would have won an MVP each season he was in Cleveland.

The MVP is a notorious "best player" on a really fucking good team award(regardless of supporting cast) or a flavor of the month/year deal. There are some exceptions here and there as with everything but looking through the list it's pretty clear that players who have played with other star players haven't had an issue winning the award.

You're abosolutely fucking cluess as usual when it comes to basketball.

Players have gotten votes on poor teams before.

Ok?

Have they ever won it?

In 2003 or 2004, Alex Rodriguez was the second player to win an "MVP" award on a last placed team in a division in MLB history. It certainly could happen in basketball.

Basketball isn't baseball.

Lookup apples and oranges then get back to me.

 

[FirstTimer]

I'm not even dignifying this with an answer

Translation

I'm getting smacked around like the idiot I am again. So I'm going to tuck my tail between my legs and go away

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Some kid comes out of the draft number #1 to, by far, the worst team in the NBA. By all accounts, this kid looks like a hall-of-famer in the making and has ice water in his veins. He hits 7 buzzer-beaters and a couple more game-tying shots in the clutch which ultimately leads to wins. He scores and/or assists 50% of his team's total points while guarding the opposing team's best perimeter offensive player.

His team goes 21-61 for the year.

In that hypothetical situation, is that player not an MVP candidate? (answer: yes, he obviously would be).

Value = number of additional regular season wins one player causes for his team.

Not highest dependency on one player. Not how good a player is.

 

[FirstTimer]

Some kid comes out of the draft number #1 to, by far, the worst team in the NBA. By all accounts, this kid looks like a hall-of-famer in the making and has ice water in his veins. He hits 7 buzzer-beaters and a couple more game-tying shots in the clutch which ultimately leads to wins. He scores and/or assists 50% of his team's total points while guarding the opposing team's best perimeter offensive player.

His team goes 21-61 for the year.

In that hypothetical situation, is that player not an MVP candidate? (answer: yes, he obviously would be).

Value = number of additional regular season wins one player causes for his team.

Not highest dependency on one player. Not how good a player is.

And there has never been a player from a team like the on you lsited above to win the award.

Hell, show me a player like that who even finished in the Top 5 of the voting. He would not be a serious candidate. Jordan is the closest example(as a #3 pick) and he finished 6th on a 37 win team. As Jordan's team got better his MVP shares went up. Hell even James in his rookie year finished 9th..and his team more than doubled his win total from the previous season.

I love how Rami's idiotic argument is basically revolving around some far fetched hypothetical and an incredibley rare occurance in a sport other than basketball.

 

[FirstTimer]

Again, the NBA MVP has generally always been a "best player on a really fucking good team" award or flavor of the year award.

It's not a basketball WAR award.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

What you are commenting on is a little side point I made to illustrate the point that the MVP award is based on regular season wins combined with individual performance.

Value is measured by number of regular season wins caused as a direct result of one player's presence on a given team.

And, by your own interpretation of what the MVP award is (bullshit by the way), you should also be inquisitive as to how Zach Randolph is placed in front of Derrick Rose. And Carmelo Anthony, for that matter.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Again, the NBA MVP has generally always been a "best player on a really fucking good team" award or flavor of the year award.

It's not a basketball WAR award.

The two generally go hand-in-hand. You need a solid team surrounding a top tier player in order to rack up wins, generally speaking.

However, when you have a team SO dominant like the Miami Heat, who would already be dominant even without their best player, it takes the best player on their team down a notch in terms of value to his team defined by regular season games won.

If LeBron James and Dwyane Wade have better seasons than Derrick Rose (as they did last year by most accounts), and they don't have a much higher winning percentage than the Bulls, it is safe to assume that Rose will have been more valuable to his respective team than Wade was to the Heat or James was to the Heat.

Bulls minus Rose = lower-seeded playoff team at best.

Heat minus James = probably the 1st or 2nd seed in the East.

Heat minus Wade = probably the 1st or 2nd seed in the East.