Game of Thrones Thread

[nc0gnet0]

Yes of course I never disputed that. Ncog was just caught up on labeling that a redemption arc. He thinks that means he was redeemed. I think it will be him finally being punished for his many crimes presuming his good deed hopefully ends in his death.

Oh please Ncog was caught up in....LMAO there are literally thesis's written on the matter. google Jamie redemption arc once.

Yes of course I never disputed that. Ncog was just caught up on labeling that a redemption arc. He thinks that means he was redeemed. I think it will be him finally being punished for his many crimes presuming his good deed hopefully ends in his death.

Were did I ever say I thought he was redeemed? You just don't get it.
A redemption arc is when a character starts out as a bad guy, and over time he turns into a good guy.
In other words, you would expect Jamie in the beginning of the series to make a decision that a bad guy would make
At the end of his redemption arc, he is a good guy and you would expect him to make decisions accordingly.

It........really........is..........that.......simple.........

You are so tied up with the fact no matter what he does he cannot be redeemed, that you can't understand why he can still be on a redemption arc.

 

[Warrior Spirit]

Oh please Ncog was caught up in....LMAO there are literally thesis's written on the matter. google Jamie redemption arc once.


Were did I ever say I thought he was redeemed? You just don't get it.
A redemption arc is when a character starts out as a bad guy, and over time he turns into a good guy.
In other words, you would expect Jamie in the beginning of the series to make a decision that a bad guy would make
At the end of his redemption arc, he is a good guy and you would expect him to make decisions accordingly.

It........really........is..........that.......simple.........

You are so tied up with the fact no matter what he does he cannot be redeemed, that you can't understand why he can still be on a redemption arc.

Exactly. The mere fact Jaime started off as a most hated character in the beginning and then went to less hated and then even to one of the more liked characters shows the arc has been ongoing from the very beginning. It's really already complete. All that's left is to make amends with the Starks which is what he is about to do.

 

[Warrior Spirit]

I wonder if Daario Naharis will show up to fight Jon for Dany's snatch....

Pff, she'd have no interest. Was easy for her to dump him and, Unlike Jon, he does NOT have the blood of the dragon.

 

[nc0gnet0]

Just judging from a couple things that seemed obvious, I think Silence is right. First, while discussing the premier, the showrunners made it seem like it's known to all that dragons will only let those with Targaryen blood ride them. If it's known to all, it should definitely be known to the Targaryens themselves. Again, I point to Dave saying Jon should have known but he's sometimes slow on the uptake. Second, you only need look at Dany's reaction to when Jon pet the dragon and compare it to when she told him to ride the dragon. She was very much shocked when the dragon let him pet it but was very much confident the dragon would allow him to ride it in the premiere. Now, this doesn't mean she would think he was as closely related to her as he is. She still believes herself to be the only pure Targaryen but Jon being a bastard could have had her thinking he was unknowingly a Targaryen bastard. She would only know that he'd have to have some Targaryen blood in him.

This is the video where Dan alludes to the fact that Jon should have obviously known he was Targaryen when the dragon allowed him to ride it. His comment about it comes about 3:30 in the vid.

That's interesting, but Dave kinda got it wrong. At the very least he should have said only Valaryan's can ride dragons. I know that targs are the only purebred Valaryans left, but there are Valaryen bastards about. It's kinda up for debate in the book (see Nettles). I don't recall it ever being brought up in the show, but that's not to say it can't be brought up in the next few episodes and put in such a way that it is common knowledge (that we just haven't been privy to in the show-verse).

 

[nc0gnet0]

If he's around after the war against the dead, which I highly suspect he will be as he's still the main one expected to kill the NK and save humantiy, I don't see him dying.

fify (jk)

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Oh please Ncog was caught up in....LMAO there are literally thesis's written on the matter. google Jamie redemption arc once.


Were did I ever say I thought he was redeemed? You just don't get it.
A redemption arc is when a character starts out as a bad guy, and over time he turns into a good guy.
In other words, you would expect Jamie in the beginning of the series to make a decision that a bad guy would make
At the end of his redemption arc, he is a good guy and you would expect him to make decisions accordingly.

It........really........is..........that.......simple.........

You are so tied up with the fact no matter what he does he cannot be redeemed, that you can't understand why he can still be on a redemption arc.

*theses

 

[nc0gnet0]

*theses

Learn something new everyday............

 

[Warrior Spirit]

That's interesting, but Dave kinda got it wrong. At the very least he should have said only Valaryan's can ride dragons. I know that targs are the only purebred Valaryans left, but there are Valaryen bastards about. It's kinda up for debate in the book (see Nettles). I don't recall it ever being brought up in the show, but that's not to say it can't be brought up in the next few episodes and put in such a way that it is common knowledge (that we just haven't been privy to in the show-verse).

It's all about Targaryen blood. Like Missandei, dragons have no concept of bastards, they only sense Targaryen blood. The way Drogon stared at Jon last episode is indicative of him knowing he is not only Targaryen but a King. The last Targaryen who was King on the Iron Throne and also rode a dragon was... wait for it...Aegon Targaryen. Everything GOT is foreshadowed.

 

[nc0gnet0]

It's all about Targaryen blood. Like Missandei, dragons have no concept of bastards, they only sense Targaryen blood. The way Drogon stared at Jon last episode is indicative of him knowing he is not only Targaryen but a King. The last Targaryen who was King on the Iron Throne and also rode a dragon was... wait for it...Aegon Targaryen. Everything GOT is foreshadowed.

No, it's Valaryan blood. The Targs were actually a rather small house in the Valaryan empire before the doom. Numerous Valaryan's had Dragons, not just the Targs. This is a well known fact. All targs are Valaryan's but not all Valaryan's are Targs.

Like Missandei, dragons have no concept of bastards, they only sense Targaryen blood.

I wasn't using it in the same context as Missandei though. Think more in a genetic sense. John has 50% Valaryan blood. If Jon were to have a child with a non-Valaryan, that child would have 25% Valaryan blood.......and so on and so on. That is why I used the term purebred. The question is, what percentage of "Valaryan" blood does one need to be a dragon rider, or is just a trace suffice (which is why I brought up descendants of other Valaryan houses)

 

[Warrior Spirit]

No, it's Valaryan blood. The Targs were actually a rather small house in the Valaryan empire before the doom. Numerous Valaryan's had Dragons, not just the Targs. This is a well known fact. All targs are Valaryan's but not all Valaryan's are Targs.

Like Missandei, dragons have no concept of bastards, they only sense Targaryen blood.

I wasn't using it in the same context as Missandei though. Think more in a genetic sense. John has 50% Valaryan blood. If Jon were to have a child with a non-Valaryan, that child would have 25% Valaryan blood.......and so on and so on. That is why I used the term purebred. The question is, what percentage of "Valaryan" blood does one need to be a dragon rider, or is just a trace suffice (which is why I brought up descendants of other Valaryan houses)

You're trying to complicate something that the showrunners have already made abundantly clear, dragons only allow Targaryens to ride them. Valyrian families were led by House Targaryen, known to have controlled the last surviving dragons. No need to go further back. No need to listen to other theories or what the books may say or hint at. For the purpose of the show, the showrunners have outright told us "only Targaryens can ride dragons". No more need to overthink it now. It is that Targaryen blood, not Valyrian blood, they sense. It is specifically Jon's Kingly Targaryen blood Drogon was picking up on in the last episode.

 

[remydat]

If he's around after the war against the dead, which I highly suspect he will be as he's still the main one expected to kill Cersei, I don't see him dying.

I would prefer a Stark murder both.

 

[remydat]

Oh please Ncog was caught up in....LMAO there are literally thesis's written on the matter. google Jamie redemption arc once.


Were did I ever say I thought he was redeemed? You just don't get it.
A redemption arc is when a character starts out as a bad guy, and over time he turns into a good guy.
In other words, you would expect Jamie in the beginning of the series to make a decision that a bad guy would make
At the end of his redemption arc, he is a good guy and you would expect him to make decisions accordingly.

It........really........is..........that.......simple.........

You are so tied up with the fact no matter what he does he cannot be redeemed, that you can't understand why he can still be on a redemption arc.

No that is how you choose to define it. A redmeption arc is not a redemption arc if the viewer doesnt feel like the character has actually been redeemed. You are defining it based on writer intent whereas I am defining it based in viewer reaction. Same as 2 years ago and nothing has changed in my stance.

You keep trying to force me to believe as you do but I am saying you are free to consider it a redemption arc. I am free to consider it as not being a redemption arc because his supposed redemption doesnt resonate with me as a reader.

Martin himself said he didnt write characters as classic good and evil so that means you can view Jamie as being a good guy now while another viewer can view him as simply being a bad guy that did something good.

In short, there is no obejctive deinition of what constitues a redemption arc. Believe what you want and I will do the same.

 

[Ares]

With all the character reunions.... Jamie/Bran are the longest between having met (season 1 episode 1) and then not seeing each other until now (season 8 episode 1)...

The only longer one would be if Cersei and creepy Bran meet again.

I'm trying to think if there are any other reunions or meetups left between people who haven't seen one another in a long time or have never met.

Like I don't think Bran has met The Hound... or at least not in any scenes we've seen, that could be hilarious.

Or Tormund meeting Bran.... they should make it a Winterfell residency requirement that you meet creepy Bran.

EDIT: Other random thought but where in the **** is Ghost? He didn't die that I recall.

 

[Warrior Spirit]

With all the character reunions.... Jamie/Bran are the longest between having met (season 1 episode 1) and then not seeing each other until now (season 8 episode 1)...

The only longer one would be if Cersei and creepy Bran meet again.

I'm trying to think if there are any other reunions or meetups left between people who haven't seen one another in a long time or have never met.

Like I don't think Bran has met The Hound... or at least not in any scenes we've seen, that could be hilarious.

Or Tormund meeting Bran.... they should make it a Winterfell residency requirement that you meet creepy Bran.

EDIT: Other random thought but where in the **** is Ghost? He didn't die that I recall.

Jon/Arya also basically just as long. Believe it was episode 2 when they said their good byes and Jon gifted her with Needle. While their reunion went about as suspected, it got a bit awkward when Jon said you know how Sansa is and expected the same reaction Little Arya would have had back then. Instead Arya went all pro Sansa basically saying she's the smartest person she knows and is only protecting the family and then tells Jon to remember that he is family too. More foreshadowing here now that Jon knows he is a Targaryen. As he told Theon he need not be just a Greyjoy or Stark, he can be both. Of course Jon won't be abandoning his Stark family to go all Targaryen.

Upcoming Ghost appearances in this final season have been confirmed by showrunners. Not sure about Nimeria but that seems to be expected as well.

 

[remydat]

Exactly. The mere fact Jaime started off as a most hated character in the beginning and then went to less hated and then even to one of the more liked characters shows the arc has been ongoing from the very beginning. It's really already complete. All that's left is to make amends with the Starks which is what he is about to do.

Yes for the people that this happened to then he has been redeemed. However, if I still hate Jamie then he has not been redeemed in my eyes so for me it is not a redemption arc. Hence why I said it is subjective. If you are one of the people whose opinion has been changed then you are experiencing a redemption arc. If you are one of the people like me who thinks Jamie is still a murderous hypocritical cuckold then there is no redemption. You are just waiting for him to get what he deserves which is death.

 

[Warrior Spirit]

Yes for the people that this happened to then he has been redeemed. However, if I still hate Jamie then he has not been redeemed in my eyes so for me it is not a redemption arc. Hence why I said it is subjective.

Subjective to a point. If you still see him as the prick who pushed a boy off the tower to keep his secret of incest, that's reasonable but the show has not depicted him as being that prick since and most viewers have greatly changed their minds about him since that. Have to realize he lives in a world that is rather ruthless and not overly concerned with how people are treated. People are beheaded on whims without investigations of any kind for crimes they often aren't guilty of or crimes that are not as bad as depicted by the accusers. Fights to the death are also a common thing. Jaime alludes to this in the beginning when talking to Jon before he goes to the wall for the Nightwatch. He asks Jon if he's ever swung a sword at someone. At that point Jon hadn't and Jaime says you quickly learn men are nothing but meat and flesh. We've also seen points where Jaime embraces being called the Kingslayer but find, in truth, it annoys him cause people calling him that don't realize the whole story and the mere fact he saved a million lives by doing it. And now, while the sister he has loved, in more ways than one, goes back on her word to help the North in the war against the dead he decides to leave her to stay committed to the promise of support despite knowing he could be judged harshly upon his arrival at Winterfell. Not the act of a prick.

 

[Ares]

@Gustavus Adolphus FYI Jamie pushed Bran out a window.

#Never4Get

 

[nc0gnet0]

No that is how you choose to define it. A redmeption arc is not a redemption arc if the viewer doesnt feel like the character has actually been redeemed. You are defining it based on writer intent whereas I am defining it based in viewer reaction. Same as 2 years ago and nothing has changed in my stance.

You keep trying to force me to believe as you do but I am saying you are free to consider it a redemption arc. I am free to consider it as not being a redemption arc because his supposed redemption doesnt resonate with me as a reader.

Martin himself said he didnt write characters as classic good and evil so that means you can view Jamie as being a good guy now while another viewer can view him as simply being a bad guy that did something good.

In short, there is no obejctive deinition of what constitues a redemption arc. Believe what you want and I will do the same.

In other words, when you lose an argument, simply redefine the meaning of the term. got it.

A redmeption arc is not a redemption arc if the viewer doesnt feel like the character has actually been redeemed.

No, that just means maybe the character hasn't completed the arc, doesn't mean he isn't on one.

Nice try though.

 

[remydat]

In other words, when you lose an argument, simply redefine the meaning of the term. got it.

A redmeption arc is not a redemption arc if the viewer doesnt feel like the character has actually been redeemed.

No, that just means maybe the character hasn't completed the arc, doesn't mean he isn't on one.

Nice try though.

I said the same thing 2 years ago so I have redefined nothing. I have been telling you all long the same thing. You are just too stubborn to listen.

I am fully aware that others may see Jamie as being on some redemptive arc. I am fully aware that that may even be the intent of Martin and the showrunners. I am simply saying, you have produced no direct statement from them confirming this fact like you seemed to suggest you had and I am saying Jamie can't really be redeemed from my perspective at this point when he's sat idly by and let his sister and son run rampant.

Others are free to disagree but again, my ability to buy into some redemption of Jamie ended as his last son was plummeting to his death and before he hit the pavement below. There may have been a chance had Jamie acted like a man and slapped some sense into Cersei but instead he continued to behave like a cuckold. His character is ruined for me. He's a pathetic and cowardly man who could never stand up to his sister as she destroyed their family. Any sort of redemption will be too little too late from my perspective.

In fact, I find him more pathetic than Theon because at least Theon was brutally tortured into submission and is showing some attempt to actually break free from that submission by freeing Sansa. He then backed done from Euron but then returned to Dany looking for help to free his sister. So he's not completely cured but you can see him struggling with himself to find a way back. Jamie was not tortured. He just became a pathetic and cowardly ***** regarding his sister by choice. He's had plenty of opportunities to stand up to her and he does nothing.

Like honest question, what do you think changed in my stance? This post is from 2 years ago. I told you then that I am aware that others including the showrunners may consider Jamie on a redemption arc. I told you 2 years ago that for me he isn't and you are free to disagree. You are being stubborn and obtuse. We have disagreed for 2 years on what is meant by a redemption arc and for some strange reason you refuse to accept the fact that we have always disagreed on that point. Again, time for you to perhaps get over it.

 

[remydat]

Subjective to a point. If you still see him as the prick who pushed a boy off the tower to keep his secret of incest, that's reasonable but the show has not depicted him as being that prick since and most viewers have greatly changed their minds about him since that. Have to realize he lives in a world that is rather ruthless and not overly concerned with how people are treated. People are beheaded on whims without investigations of any kind for crimes they often aren't guilty of or crimes that are not as bad as depicted by the accusers. Fights to the death are also a common thing. Jaime alludes to this in the beginning when talking to Jon before he goes to the wall for the Nightwatch. He asks Jon if he's ever swung a sword at someone. At that point Jon hadn't and Jaime says you quickly learn men are nothing but meat and flesh. We've also seen points where Jaime embraces being called the Kingslayer but find, in truth, it annoys him cause people calling him that don't realize the whole story and the mere fact he saved a million lives by doing it. And now, while the sister he has loved, in more ways than one, goes back on her word to help the North in the war against the dead he decides to leave her to stay committed to the promise of support despite knowing he could be judged harshly upon his arrival at Winterfell. Not the act of a prick.

At this point I might as well just post my posts from 2 years ago as my stance is the same.

Redemption from what? No one knows about his crime and again he was already chivalrous when he killed the mad King even at the cost of his honor. My point is not that he's good or bad. My point is he's the same Jamie he's always been. The same Jamie that killed the Mad King is the same Jamie that could befriend Brienne.

Jamie's character flaw is his sister and family. He is willing to do truly awfully things or allow them to do truly awful things and that is still the case here. His son literally killed himself because of his mother and Jamie is still right there by her side. Cersei fucks other dudes and basically promises Euron some pussy in front of him and all he does is give Euron an evil look and not his sister.

Since you want to revisit the argument. Here was my other main point ie Jamie is the same Jamie. So what has actually happened in the 8 seasons? Has Jamie actually magically turned into a hero from villain. No not really. He saved everyone from the mad king afterall so he always had some heroic qualities in him. The only thing that has changed is his relationship with Cersei and because she was always the main cause of his bad deeds, he looks better when he is not around her.

Jamie was never wholly a hero or a villain. His defining character trait was his cowardice when it came to Cersei and his family. He looks more heroic now because Cersei stopped giving him the pussy and so he soured on her. That is not redemption to me but do you bro. I never saw Jamie as a hero or a villain. I saw him as a cuckold who does bad things when under Cersei's influence and good things when his mind isn't on fucking his sister. Same dude since day 1.