Game of Thrones Thread

[Warrior Spirit]

Going to just end with Bran and the Night King playing chess in a forest.

Essentially, that's what it's been for these many years with the NK/3 eyed Raven. The Greenseer ability comes from the weirwood trees the children used to remember all. It's actually why they created NK, cause first man was cutting them down when taking over the land. The 3 eyed Raven was well protected so NK couldn't get to him... until Bran came and mucked up the waters. But the previous 3 eyed Raven even saw that coming as he prepared Bran to take his place before NK killed him. NK also saw it coming as he targeted Bran before he was 3 eyed Raven. Targeted him to get to the previous one and marked him knowing he'd be the new one.

 

[Ares]

I don't want him to speak. Would ruin his bad assery. He's plenty intelligent. I'd agree at this point there's no time for some big, in depth, reveal about NK. He is what he is and created as seen in the show.

Yeah I think his presentation and menacing look has been perfect.

That scene where he raises the Hardhome dead and stares at Jon Snow.... so much malice.... so menacing... all without speaking a fucking word.

The Night King never appeared in the books, he was only alluded to up to the 5th book, so the show got to decide how to present him based on RR Martin's guidance and I feel they've done a really good job.

As an antagonist:

- He's mysterious and evil, and so are his followers
- He's concisely shown to be extremely dangerous
- He and his followers are relentless and this is scary on a different level for the protagonists
- Visually he inspires fear, and shows no apparent fear
- He keeps getting stronger and more dangerous
- He shows an intelligence to his evil/malice that is hard to quantify
- He gives you no reason to empathize with him

The last one to me is a problem in the writing of many antagonists in contemporary shows/movies.

If you build up an antagonist.... a villain.... and then you keep putting your narrative foot on the other side of the fence like "Well he's really evil, but it isn't his fault.... he was driven insane.... he was brainwashed.... he was wronged by someone....", IMO it cuts the legs out from under your villain. And if I don't find your villain compelling, then I won't find the plight of your protagonist against the villain to be compelling.

Yay, 2 people I vaguely sympathize with.... like it or not you need to make the content consumer hate your villain(s) and love your hero(es)

 

[Warrior Spirit]

Yeah I think his presentation and menacing look has been perfect.

That scene where he raises the Hardhome dead and stares at Jon Snow.... so much malice.... so menacing... all without speaking a fucking word.

The Night King never appeared in the books, he was only alluded to up to the 5th book, so the show got to decide how to present him based on RR Martin's guidance and I feel they've done a really good job.

As an antagonist:

- He's mysterious and evil, and so are his followers
- He's concisely shown to be extremely dangerous
- He and his followers are relentless and this is scary on a different level for the protagonists
- Visually he inspires fear, and shows no apparent fear
- He keeps getting stronger and more dangerous
- He shows an intelligence to his evil/malice that is hard to quantify
- He gives you no reason to empathize with him

The last one to me is a problem in the writing of many antagonists in contemporary shows/movies.

If you build up an antagonist.... a villain.... and then you keep putting your narrative foot on the other side of the fence like "Well he's really evil, but it isn't his fault.... he was driven insane.... he was brainwashed.... he was wronged by someone....", IMO it cuts the legs out from under your villain. And if I don't find your villain compelling, then I won't find the plight of your protagonist against the villain to be compelling.

Yay, 2 people I vaguely sympathize with.... like it or not you need to make the content consumer hate your villain(s) and love your hero(es)

Well, you're left with 2 antagonists, NK and Cersei. Cersi is super easy to hate. NK is a different type of antagonist, inherently evil but only doing what he was created to do. An antagonist worthy of more respect for his overwhelming strength, powers and complete lack of fear. Just makes for a more interesting villain, a more than worthy adversary. You can have mounds of respect for the bad guy and still want to see the good guy put him down.

 

[Bears_804]

As an antagonist:

- He gives you no reason to empathize with him

The last one to me is a problem in the writing of many antagonists in contemporary shows/movies.

If you build up an antagonist.... a villain.... and then you keep putting your narrative foot on the other side of the fence like "Well he's really evil, but it isn't his fault.... he was driven insane.... he was brainwashed.... he was wronged by someone....", IMO it cuts the legs out from under your villain. And if I don't find your villain compelling, then I won't find the plight of your protagonist against the villain to be compelling.

I'd have to disagree here. He was created by the children of the forest. He didn't look too thrilled when being created. So there's that.

Hard to sympathize with his goal as the NK, but I don't think anyone knows that he was inherently evil before being turned, or if his turning was against his own will. One could sympathize with his previous humanistic pre-NK existence if more of the story were revealed.

Not sure the show will ever go that far. Would be interesting if they answered a little more about him other than the children turned him and this is what you get in return.

 

[Ares]

Well, you're left with 2 antagonists, NK and Cersei. Cersi is super easy to hate. NK is a different type of antagonist, inherently evil but only doing what he was created to do. An antagonist worthy of more respect for his overwhelming strength, powers and complete lack of fear. Just makes for a more interesting villain, a more than worthy adversary. You can have mounds of respect for the bad guy and still want to see the good guy put him down.

Respect is different from empathy, and I would agree.

I mean heck I respect Cersei's ability to survive... her ruthlessness... but I don't empathize with her.

If you build a villain and then give ample reason to empathize with them, you've kinda gone in a circle.

If you intend to do that... if the character is intended to be a villain who comes around to being a protagonist, ala Theon Greyjoy... that's fine.

But if you just build a character to be a villain, then make me empathize with him, then ask me to continue viewing the villain as evil, it dilutes the villain.

RR Martin and the show writers seem to have done a good job of avoiding that mistake.... even Ramsay Snow/Bolton... they could have fallen into that trap with his relationship (or lack of one) with Roose Bolton, but instead they managed to paint him as a villain in spite of his circumstances with Roose. Same with Joffrey in general, in the book RR Martin vaguely brings up Robert's treatment of Joffrey perhaps being part of why Joffrey's sociopathic tendencies got so bad based on Robert beating Joffrey for killing a cat as a small child rather than attempting to perhaps stifle that part of Joffrey as a father ought to.... the show ignores that IIRC, and just allows Joffrey to be a psycho villain for you to hate.... and whether you like Sansa or Tyrion or Ser Dontos.... the hate Joffrey invokes, builds the backing for the protagonists that he torments.

Imagine if they actually gave you flashbacks showing how Joffrey was mistreated and neglected.... painted him as a tragic figure rather than a total sociopath... would have robbed us of a truly great villain.

 

[Warrior Spirit]

I'd have to disagree here. He was created by the children of the forest. He didn't look too thrilled when being created. So there's that.

Hard to sympathize with his goal as the NK, but I don't think anyone knows that he was inherently evil before being turned, or if his turning was against his own will. One could sympathize with his previous humanistic pre-NK existence if more of the story were revealed.

Not sure the show will ever go that far. Would be interesting if they answered a little more about him other than the children turned him and this is what you get in return.

Well, he was tied to a tree and squirming to get free so doesn't seem to be any doubt it was against his will.

 

[Ares]

I'd have to disagree here. He was created by the children of the forest. He didn't look too thrilled when being created. So there's that.

Hard to sympathize with his goal as the NK, but I don't think anyone knows that he was inherently evil before being turned, or if his turning was against his own will. One could sympathize with his previous humanistic pre-NK existence if more of the story were revealed.

Not sure the show will ever go that far. Would be interesting if they answered a little more about him other than the children turned him and this is what you get in return.

Not enough basis for empathy for 99.9999999% of viewers.... we didn't know him, we had no connection to him.... and in the story it happened thousands of years ago.

You would have to really be ridiculously empathetic to truly have empathy for the Night King based off one flashback in one episode when weighed against everything else.

If you want content consumers to have empathy you have to build that as much as you have to build the hate/animosity towards your villains.

They built no real empathy for that nameless, faceless man, and if there was any you forgot it the next time you saw him:

1. Take a baby and turn it
2. Kill everyone at Hardhome and turn them
3. Kill Dany's dragon and bring down the wall
4. Turn Ned Umber and his guys into an art project

Cersei has more empathy built for her on that walk of shame, and she easily erased it when she blew up the Sept of Baylor.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Essentially, that's what it's been for these many years with the NK/3 eyed Raven. The Greenseer ability comes from the weirwood trees the children used to remember all. It's actually why they created NK, cause first man was cutting them down when taking over the land. The 3 eyed Raven was well protected so NK couldn't get to him... until Bran came and mucked up the waters. But the previous 3 eyed Raven even saw that coming as he prepared Bran to take his place before NK killed him. NK also saw it coming as he targeted Bran before he was 3 eyed Raven. Targeted him to get to the previous one and marked him knowing he'd be the new one.

I'm being quite literal. The show is going to end with Bran and the NK laughing, playing chess (or the Essos equivalent), and refilling each other's tea cups while Harry Nilsson's "Best Friend" plays into the fade to black.

 

[Bears_804]

Not enough basis for empathy for 99.9999999% of viewers.... we didn't know him, we had no connection to him.... and in the story it happened thousands of years ago.

You would have to really be ridiculously empathetic to truly have empathy for the Night King based off one flashback in one episode when weighed against everything else.

If you want content consumers to have empathy you have to build that as much as you have to build the hate/animosity towards your villains.

They built no real empathy for that nameless, faceless man, and if there was any you forgot it the next time you saw him:

1. Take a baby and turn it
2. Kill everyone at Hardhome and turn them
3. Kill Dany's dragon and bring down the wall
4. Turn Ned Umber and his guys into an art project

Cersei has more empathy built for her on that walk of shame, and she easily erased it when she blew up the Sept of Baylor.

Fair enough. Playing the devils advocate role for conversation sake.

 

[Ares]

Fair enough. Playing the devils advocate role for conversation sake.

Not a problem

 

[Warrior Spirit]

Respect is different from empathy, and I would agree.

I mean heck I respect Cersei's ability to survive... her ruthlessness... but I don't empathize with her.

If you build a villain and then give ample reason to empathize with them, you've kinda gone in a circle.

If you intend to do that... if the character is intended to be a villain who comes around to being a protagonist, ala Theon Greyjoy... that's fine.

But if you just build a character to be a villain, then make me empathize with him, then ask me to continue viewing the villain as evil, it dilutes the villain.

RR Martin and the show writers seem to have done a good job of avoiding that mistake.... even Ramsay Snow/Bolton... they could have fallen into that trap with his relationship (or lack of one) with Roose Bolton, but instead they managed to paint him as a villain in spite of his circumstances with Roose. Same with Joffrey in general, in the book RR Martin vaguely brings up Robert's treatment of Joffrey perhaps being part of why Joffrey's sociopathic tendencies got so bad based on Robert beating Joffrey for killing a cat as a small child rather than attempting to perhaps stifle that part of Joffrey as a father ought to.... the show ignores that IIRC, and just allows Joffrey to be a psycho villain for you to hate.... and whether you like Sansa or Tyrion or Ser Dontos.... the hate Joffrey invokes, builds the backing for the protagonists that he torments.

Imagine if they actually gave you flashbacks showing how Joffrey was mistreated and neglected.... painted him as a tragic figure rather than a total sociopath... would have robbed us of a truly great villain.

Joffrey...this show has had some of the best villains ever. Not sure I like Theon as much as they want viewers to though. I think his redemption came too easy.

See your point with the likes of Joffrey and Ramsay and how they can be used to build up others in the mind of viewers. Both integral, particularly to the development of the Sansa character.

With NK, you can respect and even empathize with him and still get that same effect. The NK can be awesome, but if allowed to accomplish his goal he could be viewed more evil and dangerous than Joffrey or Ramsay could have ever dreamed of being. It's that goal of destroying everything to such an extreme extent you even wipe out the memory of it that gives viewers more than enough reason to badly want to see the chosen one take him out.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Maybe the NK is the actual good guy here. If the ****** would just speak up, we could find out.

 

[Warrior Spirit]

I'm being quite literal. The show is going to end with Bran and the NK laughing, playing chess (or the Essos equivalent), and refilling each other's tea cups while Harry Nilsson's "Best Friend" plays into the fade to black.

No, it's gonna end by panning out and showing Jon's fat buddy, Samwell Tarly, writing it all down as he tells the tale.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

No, it's gonna end by panning out and showing Jon's fat buddy, Samwell Tarly, writing it all down as he tells the tale.

You mean the main protagonist.

 

[Warrior Spirit]

You mean the main protagonist.

Wouldn't go that far. It's all about Jon and his plight to make allies of enemies for the good of all mankind.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Wouldn't go that far. It's all about Jon and his plight to make allies of enemies for the good of all mankind.

Maybe. Or maybe you're just a hater.

 

[Warrior Spirit]

Maybe. Or maybe you're just a hater.

Nah, even Sam would tell you it's all about Jon. NK has the ice. Dany has the fire. Sam has the visceral fat. Jon has the ice and fire and strongest claim to the throne.

 

[ruprecht]

The Night King should not speak....
Any chance he went South already?

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Nah, even Sam would tell you it's all about Jon. NK has the ice. Dany has the fire. Sam has the visceral fat. Jon has the ice and fire and strongest claim to the throne.

Your favorite character is Loras, so what the hell do you know?

 

[Warrior Spirit]

The Night King should not speak....
Any chance he went South already?

Have seen it strongly theorized he only sends half his army to WF while he heads to KL with the rest, knowing he can turn that large population into an even much bigger army of his own.

I don't see that happening. In the preview we see Dany swooping downwards on her dragon. I'd say more than likely a desperate attempt to save Jon, who has just engaged NK in 1 on 1 battle, and had his sword shattered.