Game of Thrones Thread

[remydat]

You can't compare a fictional world where a woman with her tits pushed up rules with dragons vs Abraham Lincoln and real world issues.

She would have eventually taken the North by force if John refused to bend the knee.

The point is you are holding her to a higher standard than even modern times.

She would not be taking the North. Jon would be in rebellion since the North pledged allegiance to the Targs.

By the laws of Westeroos, the North is a part of the Kingdoms she rules. Jon's way out is to assert his right to rule as the heir to the Targ dynasty. Then as head of the 7 Kingdoms he can give the North independence.

 

[nc0gnet0]

Well Tyrion could betray for blood ie family, gold ie gets paid as well and for love because he loves say Sansa.


Think show runners confirmed that Dothraki basically done in the show.

Basically used as canon fodder in the end.

Not surprised. Still think the Dothraki attack was mind numbingly stupid.

 

[nc0gnet0]

Jon didnt have to bend the knee. She also didnt make Jamie bend the knee.

Again the only people I recall this happening to recently was the Tarleys who had just fought a war and tried to kill her and then refused to recognize her claim. You dont survive long in a hostile world by leaving enemies alive who refuse to submit.

Are there others you are referring to?

Dany also agreed to give the Iron Islands independence

 

[Bears_804]

The point is you are holding her to a higher standard than even modern times.

She would not be taking the North. Jon would be in rebellion since the North pledged allegiance to the Targs.

By the laws of Westeroos, the North is a part of the Kingdoms she rules. Jon's way out is to assert his right to rule as the heir to the Targ dynasty. Then as head of the 7 Kingdoms he can give the North independence.

Think I'm making a mistake in my thought process as not even attributing Snows lineage as the rightful ruler. Was basing it off of before we knew that, when he was simply the King of the North without having found out his Targ heritage and rightful place as the king.

So, I'll go back under my rock now in regards to that portion.

Dany also agreed to give the Iron Islands independence

I must have missed that. Changes my thought process a bit. Still don't like the way she left the conversation with Sansa though. Smells of something bad brewing when she doesn't get what she wants (I.E. The Norths allegiance).

Reality is it probably means nothing in the end the way the show has progressed. I'm basing everything off of notions that won't matter in a couple episodes most likely.

 

[Ares]

Well you could have told the full story. Just would have taken more episodes.



Not really. A standard network TV show has 24 episodes in a season. More than enough to tell this story in the same eight seasons. You would just have had to sacrifice on budget most likely.

I don't see them telling this full story and keeping captive an audience the way they have for this 8-9 year run.

There's a reason this story wasn't being consumed at this level until it hit TV.

ASOIAF was not hot like Harry Potter, until it turned into a TV show where they distilled it down to something that got the masses excited.

And if you tried to tell the same large/long/complex story, I don't know if you ever get the budget to tell the whole story.

 

[SilenceS]

Welp, Remy has done it again.

 

[nc0gnet0]

Think I'm making a mistake in my thought process as not even attributing Snows lineage as the rightful ruler. Was basing it off of before we knew that, when he was simply the King of the North without having found out his Targ heritage and rightful place as the king.

So, I'll go back under my rock now in regards to that portion.


I must have missed that. Changes my thought process a bit. Still don't like the way she left the conversation with Sansa though. Smells of something bad brewing when she doesn't get what she wants (I.E. The Norths allegiance).

Reality is it probably means nothing in the end the way the show has progressed. I'm basing everything off of notions that won't matter in a couple episodes most likely.

Daenerys: You've brought us 100 ships from the Iron Fleet with men to sail them. In return, I expect you want me to support your claim to the throne of the Iron Islands?

[...]

Theon: He [Euron] murdered our father and would have murdered us. He'll murder you as soon as you have what he wants. The Seven Kingdoms. All of them.

Dany: And you don't want the Seven Kingdoms?

Yara: Your ancestors defeated ours and took the Iron Islands. We ask you to give them back.

Dany: And that's all?

Yara: We'd like you to help us murder an uncle or two who don't think a woman's fit to rule.

Dany: Reasonable.

Tyrion: What if everyone starts demanding their independence?

Dany: She's not demanding, she's asking. The others are free to ask as well.



It kinda put's a dent in that ruthless leader theory.

 

[remydat]

Think I'm making a mistake in my thought process as not even attributing Snows lineage as the rightful ruler. Was basing it off of before we knew that, when he was simply the King of the North without having found out his Targ heritage and rightful place as the king.

So, I'll go back under my rock now in regards to that portion.

I must have missed that. Changes my thought process a bit. Still don't like the way she left the conversation with Sansa though. Smells of something bad brewing when she doesn't get what she wants (I.E. The Norths allegiance).

Reality is it probably means nothing in the end the way the show has progressed. I'm basing everything off of notions that won't matter in a couple episodes most likely.

Well I don't think it was a mistake as we were initially talking about it without considering Jon's lineage. I was just throwing that out there to say that would strengthen the case for Jon and the North if he asserted his lineage.

As for the conversation with Sansa, again ignoring Jon's lineage for now, I think the point is what Sansa is discussing could be construed as treason. Whether the North likes it or not, their ancestors agreed to accept Targ rule. That was the condition for the Targs to stop their conquest. They have now spent several centuries under Targ rule. They then rebelled against Cersei who they considered to be unjust but now as far as anyone knows (except for Dany, Jon, and Samwell), the rightful heir of the Targ dynasty has returned. The North owes her their allegiance.

So Dany is showing remarkable restraint at this point. Keep in mind while Sansa was cowering in the crypts it was Dany's people dying for her. It was Dany who took up the sword and was out there killing the undead. While Sansa in the crypt throwing said. The Dothraki came to these lands for Dany and they died for the North.

They could have left the North to their fate like Cersei did and went for Kings Landing instead. Cersei by leaving the North to their fate has given up her right to claim they owe her allegiance. That was Dany's point to Jon all along. Without bending the knee it would be a foreign power coming to the defense of others. By bending the knee, it was a Queen fulfilling her obligations to protect her people which she proved she was serious about as it was the Dothraki and Unsullied that bore the brunt of the attack.

Having said that, it is obvious the writers are creating this tension and we will have to see how it is resolved. Dany so far has not been shown to be completely totalitarian as she has freed slaves, suggested others can have autonomous rule, and came to the defense of her subjects. That is entirely reasonable and consistent with the world she lives in.

 

[remydat]

Welp, Remy has done it again.

 

[nc0gnet0]

Well I don't think it was a mistake as we were initially talking about it without considering Jon's lineage. I was just throwing that out there to say that would strengthen the case for Jon and the North if he asserted his lineage.

As for the conversation with Sansa, again ignoring Jon's lineage for now, I think the point is what Sansa is discussing could be construed as treason. Whether the North likes it or not, their ancestors agreed to accept Targ rule. That was the condition for the Targs to stop their conquest. They have now spent several centuries under Targ rule. They then rebelled against Cersei who they considered to be unjust but now as far as anyone knows (except for Dany, Jon, and Samwell), the rightful heir of the Targ dynasty has returned. The North owes her their allegiance.

So Dany is showing remarkable restraint at this point. Keep in mind while Sansa was cowering in the crypts it was Dany's people dying for her. It was Dany who took up the sword and was out there killing the undead. While Sansa in the crypt throwing said. The Dothraki came to these lands for Dany and they died for the North.

They could have left the North to their fate like Cersei did and went for Kings Landing instead. Cersei by leaving the North to their fate has given up her right to claim they owe her allegiance. That was Dany's point to Jon all along. Without bending the knee it would be a foreign power coming to the defense of others. By bending the knee, it was a Queen fulfilling her obligations to protect her people which she proved she was serious about as it was the Dothraki and Unsullied that bore the brunt of the attack.

Having said that, it is obvious the writers are creating this tension and we will have to see how it is resolved. Dany so far has not been shown to be completely totalitarian as she has freed slaves, suggested others can have autonomous rule, and came to the defense of her subjects. That is entirely reasonable and consistent with the world she lives in.

In all fairness, you kinda left Robert's Rebellion out of that post.

 

[remydat]

I don't see them telling this full story and keeping captive an audience the way they have for this 8-9 year run.

There's a reason this story wasn't being consumed at this level until it hit TV.

ASOIAF was not hot like Harry Potter, until it turned into a TV show where they distilled it down to something that got the masses excited.

And if you tried to tell the same large/long/complex story, I don't know if you ever get the budget to tell the whole story.

Oh for sure. The condensed format helps with bringing in the casual audience and and non-fantasy nerds.

The budget for something like this would probably mean it has to be on one of the Networks. There is a reason why NBC, ABC, CBS, and Fox have 20+ episode seasons why HBO shows tend to have more smaller seasons. The networks can sell ads for more during their popular shows so it is in their best interest to come up with extended programing. So you could get budget so long as it was bringing in fans but that would probably mean cheaper shows and less grandiose battle scenes.

 

[remydat]

In all fairness, you kinda left Robert's Rebellion out of that post.

Robert's rebellion did not free the North though as they still fell under his rule. And Robert is a Targ which is one of the reasons he was put forth as King. It was Cersei's rule that led the North to rebel and Cersei's rule was ultimately illegitimate as Joffery is actually not Robert's child.

 

[nc0gnet0]

Robert's rebellion did not free the North though as they still fell under his rule. And Robert is a Targ which is one of the reasons he was put forth as King. It was Cersei's rule that led the North to rebel and Cersei's rule was ultimately illegitimate as Joffery is actually not Robert's child.

That is kinda weak. The point was, and as Jon pointed out to Dany, The North was not beholding to the Targ heritage/lineage as His father (Ned Stark) fought a war against the Mad King and won. To point out that the North was in rebellion against the Lannisters, and not bring this up is missing a good portion of the relevant facts.

Robert had a trace of Targaryan blood, yes.

Tyrion: Pledge your sword to her cause.

Jon: And why would I do that? I mean no offense, Your Grace, but I don't know you. As far as I can tell, your claim to the throne rests entirely on your father's name, and my own father fought to overthrow the Mad King. The lords of the North placed their trust in me to lead them, and I will continue to do so as well as I can.

Now, I am not sure 100% on this, but I do think Robert having Targ blood might be a book only thing.

 

[nc0gnet0]

What complicates matters is, Before the Targaryan dynasty, there was no king of the 7 Kindoms, they were all independent.

 

[Warrior Spirit]

Jon didnt have to bend the knee. She also didnt make Jamie bend the knee.

Again the only people I recall this happening to recently was the Tarleys who had just fought a war and tried to kill her and then refused to recognize her claim. You dont survive long in a hostile world by leaving enemies alive who refuse to submit.

Are there others you are referring to?

 

[Warrior Spirit]

What complicates matters is, Before the Targaryan dynasty, there was no king of the 7 Kindoms, they were all independent.

This is what I initially thought with Dany and Jon getting together. Jon would be more of an influence with her, give her a baby and make her lose her overwhelming desire for the throne. In essence, one can't break the wheel just by becoming a part of it. To break it is to break it, make it cease to exist.

Clearly the showrunners have something else in mind as they go for more shock value.

 

[Ares]

Oh for sure. The condensed format helps with bringing in the casual audience and and non-fantasy nerds.

The budget for something like this would probably mean it has to be on one of the Networks. There is a reason why NBC, ABC, CBS, and Fox have 20+ episode seasons why HBO shows tend to have more smaller seasons. The networks can sell ads for more during their popular shows so it is in their best interest to come up with extended programing. So you could get budget so long as it was bringing in fans but that would probably mean cheaper shows and less grandiose battle scenes.

In addition, the main networks couldn't air the nudity... sexual content.... violence/rape.... at the same level HBO does.

 

[remydat]

That is kinda weak. The point was, and as Jon pointed out to Dany, The North was not beholding to the Targ heritage/lineage as His father (Ned Stark) fought a war against the Mad King and won. To point out that the North was in rebellion against the Lannisters, and not bring this up is missing a good portion of the relevant facts.

Robert had a trace of Targaryan blood, yes.

Tyrion: Pledge your sword to her cause.

Jon: And why would I do that? I mean no offense, Your Grace, but I don't know you. As far as I can tell, your claim to the throne rests entirely on your father's name, and my own father fought to overthrow the Mad King. The lords of the North placed their trust in me to lead them, and I will continue to do so as well as I can.

Now, I am not sure 100% on this, but I do think Robert having Targ blood might be a book only thing.

Except they were beholden just to a different Targ ie Robert. If the North intended to be free of their obligations to the throne then they would have set independence as a condition for siding with Robert. They did not. The North were still ostensibly under Robert's control.

Robert does not have a Trace of Targ blood. He is cousins with the Mad King and next to Viserys and Dany had the highest claim to the throne (Jon's claim being unknown). That is how the Maesters justified the Rebellion. It was a conflict between the Main Targ house and a branch house. In addition to the Mad King's father and Robert's grandmother being siblings, the founder of the Baratheon house was the half brother of Aegon himself so for all intents and purposes the Baratheon house is in fact Targ. Orys simply didn't take Targ as his last name as all of Aegon's other brothers and sisters because he was a bastard but by blood they are Targ. This would be like saying Gendry is not a Baratheon because he changed his last name to Jones due to being Robert's bastard. That is not how blood/family ties work. By blood Gendry and his descendants are Baratheon even if his last name changes. Likewise, by blood the Baratheons are Targ because their founder was in fact the brother of the founder of the Targ dynasty.

I am aware of Jon's statements but in the end, Jon sided with Dany. The North rebelled against the Lannisters whom they owed no loyalty as the Lannister's claim to the throne is actually founded on incest and false parentage. Further, Jon now knows that the foundation for the rebellion is now suspect. The premise for the Rebellion was that Jon's father kidnapped and raped Jon's mother and Robert's betrothed. We now know that in fact they were in love rendering the premise for the Rebellion faulty.

 

[remydat]

What complicates matters is, Before the Targaryan dynasty, there was no king of the 7 Kindoms, they were all independent.

That doesn't really complicate things at all. Before the Europeans there was no United States, just land controlled by various Native American tribes. The Targ Dynasty is about as old as the United States so this would be like saying Native Americans being in control of America 300 years ago complicates the US today.

 

[modo]

I was disappointed with the end to the Night King....