Greatest team ever/Greatest bulls team ever

[97Bulls]

A franchise player is simply known as somebody who could put people in the seats. The definition is broad and open to interpretation. The point about Pippen is that he could not be a #1 scoring option on a team and win a championship. Guys like Kevin Garnett were good enough to be that and win a title. Unfortunately for KG, his best supporting cast in Minnesota was Sprewell, Cassell, Hassell, and Olowokandi.

KG was a guy who could, once upon a time, score with the very best in the league and demanded the ball.

So you state your definition of a franchise player then give an example of a player that doesnt even meet your own criteria.

 

[97Bulls]

That is my definition...I know it when I see it...

That's not a definition, its you trying to win an argument.

 

[houheffna]

That's not a definition, its you trying to win an argument.

If it works for Porn, it works for franchise player...

I will say its both mental and physical...

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

So you state your definition of a franchise player then give an example of a player that doesnt even meet your own criteria.

I pretty much already did. It's just a guy who typically can put butts in the seats and a guy who takes responsibility night-in and night-out for what happens (wins and losses). I don't think Pippen classifies as a franchise player. He was certainly the best player on the team when Jordan was out for 18 months but it's not like that whole team was built around him.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

What if pippen played in todays league, what would he avg on a ppg basis?

About the same and he would be a little bit more imposing on offense. My guess is that his field goal percentage would be a little higher.

 

[97Bulls]

About the same and he would be a little bit more imposing on offense. My guess is that his field goal percentage would be a little higher.

How can his fg% improve but his ppg stay the same?

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

2 + 2 still = 4 right???

The Bulls with Jordan = 6 Championship seasons.

The Bulls without Jordan = No Championships.

Again, none of this is rocket surgery. If Pippen were half the player a few of you try to make him out to be, the Bulls would have won 8, apparently. Or at least made the Finals. Nobody, not a single person I have ever met, nor anybody in this thread are saying Pippen was a bad player. Nobody is/was/ever saying Pippen wasn't great, because he was. He just never could be the man. And that's ok.....because he was fantastic with what the Bulls needed him to do.

Why not just leave it at that?

 

[houheffna]

2 + 2 still = 4 right???

The Bulls with Jordan = 6 Championship seasons.

The Bulls without Jordan = No Championships.

Again, none of this is rocket surgery. If Pippen were half the player a few of you try to make him out to be, the Bulls would have won 8, apparently. Or at least made the Finals. Nobody, not a single person I have ever met, nor anybody in this thread are saying Pippen was a bad player. Nobody is/was/ever saying Pippen wasn't great, because he was. He just never could be the man. And that's ok.....because he was fantastic with what the Bulls needed him to do.

Why not just leave it at that?

Be careful man, if you don't think Pip is a franchise player who freed the Israelites by parting Lake Michigan and died for all of our sins...you are not a Bulls fan...lol

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

How can his fg% improve but his ppg stay the same?

I said it would stay about the same. Pippen isn't the type of player who can take high volume shot attempts because he wasn't imposing enough. I think that there is a good chance that he would average a little bit higher field goal percentage. I'm more sure that it wouldn't go down.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Be careful man, if you don't think Pip is a franchise player who freed the Israelites by parting Lake Michigan and died for all of our sins...you are not a Bulls fan...lol

During Christmas of 1994, Scottie Pippen was able to feed the entire Robert Taylor Homes with fishes and loaves. Also, he turned water into boonesfarm.

 

[97Bulls]

2 + 2 still = 4 right???

The Bulls with Jordan = 6 Championship seasons.

The Bulls without Jordan = No Championships.

Again, none of this is rocket surgery. If Pippen were half the player a few of you try to make him out to be, the Bulls would have won 8, apparently. Or at least made the Finals. Nobody, not a single person I have ever met, nor anybody in this thread are saying Pippen was a bad player. Nobody is/was/ever saying Pippen wasn't great, because he was. He just never could be the man. And that's ok.....because he was fantastic with what the Bulls needed him to do.

Why not just leave it at that?

Excuse me. But neither has won without the other. No matter how you want to word it. And I know this isn't an argument as to how great pippen was. The hall of fame and six championships answers that.

Its the reasoning like yours. "If pippen were half the player etc, the bulls would've won 8 titles." But every other great player that didn't win gets concessions. Either they were injued, or their team wasn't good enough, they were old.

Why are you bulls fans not making the same concessions for one of your own? Its not being biased. Its not being a homer. Its just true.

Just come out and say you guys aren't very impressed with pippen no matter what because he didn't avg 30 ppg in 94 or 95. This is what the real problem is isn't it? You guys would've been more impressed with pippen if he would've had a high ppg avg, even if it was at the expense of winning. Cuz then according to your logic, he would've done all he can do.

That's why a player like dominique wilkins who who couldn't lead rats to a garbage can, never did anything significant as far as winning, can be considered a franchise player and not pippen.

 

[nwfisch]

Pippen was not a franchise player, I don't understand what's so hard to see about that.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Excuse me. But neither has won without the other. No matter how you want to word it. And I know this isn't an argument as to how great pippen was. The hall of fame and six championships answers that.

Its the reasoning like yours. "If pippen were half the player etc, the bulls would've won 8 titles." But every other great player that didn't win gets concessions. Either they were injued, or their team wasn't good enough, they were old.

Why are you bulls fans not making the same concessions for one of your own? Its not being biased. Its not being a homer. Its just true.

Just come out and say you guys aren't very impressed with pippen no matter what because he didn't avg 30 ppg in 94 or 95. This is what the real problem is isn't it? You guys would've been more impressed with pippen if he would've had a high ppg avg, even if it was at the expense of winning. Cuz then according to your logic, he would've done all he can do.

That's why a player like dominique wilkins who who couldn't lead rats to a garbage can, never did anything significant as far as winning, can be considered a franchise player and not pippen.

The six championships are because of Jordan. If Pippen was never traded from Seattle on draft day, he would probably be ringless.

I was much more impressed with Scottie's defense than his offense. But I am impressed at what he was able to become. He was an extremely versatile player and was an essential reason the Bulls won 6 titles. But he was not the reason- that was Jordan.

Wilkens had a team built around him. If Pippen had a team built around him also, you would not be hearing the phrase 6-time NBA champion Scottie Pippen.

 

[97Bulls]

The six championships are because of Jordan. If Pippen was never traded from Seattle on draft day, he would probably be ringless.

I was much more impressed with Scottie's defense than his offense. But I am impressed at what he was able to become. He was an extremely versatile player and was an essential reason the Bulls won 6 titles. But he was not the reason- that was Jordan.

Wilkens had a team built around him. If Pippen had a team built around him also, you would not be hearing the phrase 6-time NBA champion Scottie Pippen.

No they're not solely because of jordan. You take pippen off the bulls the bulls don't win. Jordan was the best player. But the bulls didn't win solely because of him. That's flawed reasoning. Why didn't jordan win from 85 to 90?

 

[97Bulls]

Pippen was not a franchise player, I don't understand what's so hard to see about that.

What's your definition of a franchise player?

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

No they're not solely because of jordan. You take pippen off the bulls the bulls don't win. Jordan was the best player. But the bulls didn't win solely because of him. That's flawed reasoning. Why didn't jordan win from 85 to 90?

No team wins solely because of one player, but do you mean to tell me that the best player in basketball history wouldn't have found a way to win a championship (or maybe even a few) without the blessing of a secondary player of Pippen's stature?

If your answer is no then we might as well just agree to disagree because we'll never see eye-to-eye.

Jordan was the main reason championships were won in Chicago a couple decades ago. There's no denying that.

 

[nwfisch]

What's your definition of a franchise player?

#1 scorer on a team for more than 5 years in a row.

 

[scottiepippen1994]

Excuse me. But neither has won without the other. No matter how you want to word it. And I know this isn't an argument as to how great pippen was. The hall of fame and six championships answers that.

Its the reasoning like yours. "If pippen were half the player etc, the bulls would've won 8 titles." But every other great player that didn't win gets concessions. Either they were injued, or their team wasn't good enough, they were old.

Why are you bulls fans not making the same concessions for one of your own? Its not being biased. Its not being a homer. Its just true.

Just come out and say you guys aren't very impressed with pippen no matter what because he didn't avg 30 ppg in 94 or 95. This is what the real problem is isn't it? You guys would've been more impressed with pippen if he would've had a high ppg avg, even if it was at the expense of winning. Cuz then according to your logic, he would've done all he can do.

That's why a player like dominique wilkins who who couldn't lead rats to a garbage can, never did anything significant as far as winning, can be considered a franchise player and not pippen.

That's right, Pippen didn't average 30 points a game, he did somthing better in 1994 and 95...He averaged almost a triple double every night..Dam near a quadrupledouble in 95...He did somthing in every catagory of the game every night and things there arnt definintions for...He made his team better than what they were..

 

[nwfisch]

Where did anyone say Pippen cost the Bulls wins?

He nearly cost them a playoff game with his attitude, however there were many games that he helped win through sufficient offense and GOAT defense.

 

[97Bulls]

#1 scorer on a team for more than 5 years in a row.

So magic johnson and bill russell aren't franchise players then.