Heyward to Cubs!

Diehardfan

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With all the mixing/matching Maddon will have at his finger tips, I fully expect to see a lot of what we saw the last half of 2015 where a 9 man game is a real rarity. Maddon was shuffling guys in and out on a regular basis. 17 to 20 guys playing in a game will be the norm and not the exception. If you have the personal to make that work, then why not? Keeps everyone in the game both physically and mentally.

Given that they were incredibly healthy last year and that usually doesn't happen two years running....I'll say they win 90 or so.
 

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Couple thoughts. First, Great signing. Second, where are all the front office haters? A few days ago, we had a forum full of upper management hate. It appears to have vanished. Third, it isn't about the total wins, last year should have shown us that. Looking forward to next season!
 

beckdawg

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So, I'm a bit obsessive about things and I've been thinking a lot about Heyward as all this roster type stuff is sorta my jam. And after thinking about this for awhile, I think that Heyward has always been a CF that's been miscast as a RF. Fangraphs even did an article back in 2014 asking why he wasn't a CF. And as obsessive as I am I kept turning this over and over in my mind trying to come up with a logical answer.

The easy out answer is he's just not good enough. But frankly I find it a rather lacking explanation. In all this talk about what's he worth and who he will sign with, I've seen a number of articles that put an 80 grade on his defense or in other words as good as you get scouting wise. And obviously all the gold gloves he has goes to show that. My next thought along these lines were that while he's great in RF he just might not have CF range. However, if you look at the range portion of UZR, he's second only to Kiermaier this season. He was also first in that regard last year. He also has a top 10 arm and a top 10 fielding this past season among all OFs. It's also interesting to note that Almora who's largely considered a gold glove caliber CF defensively has a run grade of 50, an arm grade of 60 and a field grade of 65. So, clearly you don't have to be Billy Hamiltion out there to be a great CF.

I finally thought about how he was being discussed when being brought up through the minors. The thought was always that he would develop tremendous power. Supposedly Bobby Cox had said when he came up the ball came off his bat like it did Hank Aaron's. So, if you're using that sort of logic and you see a huge mountain of a man(6'5 245) a corner OF spot sort of makes sense. However, if you look at Heyward from a numbers perspective, he's basically a CF. I mean 10-15 HRs with 20-25 steals and superb OF defense is a CF. That got me to thinking maybe Heyward is just a case of baseball trying to make a square peg fit a round hole.

If you view Heyward purely as a CF, I feel like the narrative on him drastically changes. The whole "he's not enough of a power hitter for RF" argument is totally irrelevant. Only 12 CF last year posted a positive UZR. And of those 12, only Lorenzo Cain, Odubel Herrera, A.J. Pollock, Mike Trout, and Mookie Betts posted OBP over .320. From a hitting perspective, his 121 wRC+ is better than all but Cain, Trout, and Pollock. No one in baseball is going to compete with Trout really when you factor in he plays CF. It's also interesting to note the dbacks apparently wouldn't give up Pollock for Miller but instead gave up the #1 pick in this past draft, a top 75 pitcher and a really good young OF for Miller. That being said, he hit 20 HRs last season. Cain hit 16. Both stole more bases than Heyward. Heyward at least in RF put up a higher UZR than both. Cain was pretty close at 14.3 compared to the 20.2 Heyward put up in RF(plus the 2.3 in CF) while Pollock only put up 6.5.

Given all that, I wonder if all this talk of moving Soler was never part of the plan. Obviously it's tough to say how good defensively he will be in CF but then we asked the same question about Fowler prior to the season and he was average after having been below average prior. And other than potentially how you read the ball off the bat in CF vs RF I can't come up with a compelling argument as to why he wont be just as good in CF. He seems to have the range. I know some have also suggested CF might not be ideal because of the wear and tear he would take. Considering he has 2 opt-out clauses he may use, I'm not 100% sure that's a problem. I mean if he uses himself up defensively in CF and plays well enough to opt out, then he's not really your problem anymore.

I mean we'll see what Fowler gets but at an AAV of $23 mil/season if Fowler gets $17-18 mil think you can make a compelling argument that the difference in age and durability(Fowler often was hurt prior to 2015) along with Heyward's better defense is well worth $5 or so mil a season.
 

Bear Pride

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So, I'm a bit obsessive about things and I've been thinking a lot about Heyward as all this roster type stuff is sorta my jam. And after thinking about this for awhile, I think that Heyward has always been a CF that's been miscast as a RF. Fangraphs even did an article back in 2014 asking why he wasn't a CF. And as obsessive as I am I kept turning this over and over in my mind trying to come up with a logical answer.

The easy out answer is he's just not good enough. But frankly I find it a rather lacking explanation. In all this talk about what's he worth and who he will sign with, I've seen a number of articles that put an 80 grade on his defense or in other words as good as you get scouting wise. And obviously all the gold gloves he has goes to show that. My next thought along these lines were that while he's great in RF he just might not have CF range. However, if you look at the range portion of UZR, he's second only to Kiermaier this season. He was also first in that regard last year. He also has a top 10 arm and a top 10 fielding this past season among all OFs. It's also interesting to note that Almora who's largely considered a gold glove caliber CF defensively has a run grade of 50, an arm grade of 60 and a field grade of 65. So, clearly you don't have to be Billy Hamiltion out there to be a great CF.

I finally thought about how he was being discussed when being brought up through the minors. The thought was always that he would develop tremendous power. Supposedly Bobby Cox had said when he came up the ball came off his bat like it did Hank Aaron's. So, if you're using that sort of logic and you see a huge mountain of a man(6'5 245) a corner OF spot sort of makes sense. However, if you look at Heyward from a numbers perspective, he's basically a CF. I mean 10-15 HRs with 20-25 steals and superb OF defense is a CF. That got me to thinking maybe Heyward is just a case of baseball trying to make a square peg fit a round hole.

If you view Heyward purely as a CF, I feel like the narrative on him drastically changes. The whole "he's not enough of a power hitter for RF" argument is totally irrelevant. Only 12 CF last year posted a positive UZR. And of those 12, only Lorenzo Cain, Odubel Herrera, A.J. Pollock, Mike Trout, and Mookie Betts posted OBP over .320. From a hitting perspective, his 121 wRC+ is better than all but Cain, Trout, and Pollock. No one in baseball is going to compete with Trout really when you factor in he plays CF. It's also interesting to note the dbacks apparently wouldn't give up Pollock for Miller but instead gave up the #1 pick in this past draft, a top 75 pitcher and a really good young OF for Miller. That being said, he hit 20 HRs last season. Cain hit 16. Both stole more bases than Heyward. Heyward at least in RF put up a higher UZR than both. Cain was pretty close at 14.3 compared to the 20.2 Heyward put up in RF(plus the 2.3 in CF) while Pollock only put up 6.5.

Given all that, I wonder if all this talk of moving Soler was never part of the plan. Obviously it's tough to say how good defensively he will be in CF but then we asked the same question about Fowler prior to the season and he was average after having been below average prior. And other than potentially how you read the ball off the bat in CF vs RF I can't come up with a compelling argument as to why he wont be just as good in CF. He seems to have the range. I know some have also suggested CF might not be ideal because of the wear and tear he would take. Considering he has 2 opt-out clauses he may use, I'm not 100% sure that's a problem. I mean if he uses himself up defensively in CF and plays well enough to opt out, then he's not really your problem anymore.

I mean we'll see what Fowler gets but at an AAV of $23 mil/season if Fowler gets $17-18 mil think you can make a compelling argument that the difference in age and durability(Fowler often was hurt prior to 2015) along with Heyward's better defense is well worth $5 or so mil a season.

It also makes sense to have Heyward in between Solar and Schwarber so his defense can make both corner players better.

As far as your other point... if it's just $5 mil more than retaining Fowler, throw in the $4 mil or so more for Zobrist and Warren. Throw in a frugal 2 year contract for Lackey, and I say the Cubs are doing pretty darn good!
 

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So, I'm a bit obsessive about things and I've been thinking a lot about Heyward as all this roster type stuff is sorta my jam. And after thinking about this for awhile, I think that Heyward has always been a CF that's been miscast as a RF. Fangraphs even did an article back in 2014 asking why he wasn't a CF. And as obsessive as I am I kept turning this over and over in my mind trying to come up with a logical answer.

The easy out answer is he's just not good enough. But frankly I find it a rather lacking explanation. In all this talk about what's he worth and who he will sign with, I've seen a number of articles that put an 80 grade on his defense or in other words as good as you get scouting wise. And obviously all the gold gloves he has goes to show that. My next thought along these lines were that while he's great in RF he just might not have CF range. However, if you look at the range portion of UZR, he's second only to Kiermaier this season. He was also first in that regard last year. He also has a top 10 arm and a top 10 fielding this past season among all OFs. It's also interesting to note that Almora who's largely considered a gold glove caliber CF defensively has a run grade of 50, an arm grade of 60 and a field grade of 65. So, clearly you don't have to be Billy Hamiltion out there to be a great CF.

I finally thought about how he was being discussed when being brought up through the minors. The thought was always that he would develop tremendous power. Supposedly Bobby Cox had said when he came up the ball came off his bat like it did Hank Aaron's. So, if you're using that sort of logic and you see a huge mountain of a man(6'5 245) a corner OF spot sort of makes sense. However, if you look at Heyward from a numbers perspective, he's basically a CF. I mean 10-15 HRs with 20-25 steals and superb OF defense is a CF. That got me to thinking maybe Heyward is just a case of baseball trying to make a square peg fit a round hole.

If you view Heyward purely as a CF, I feel like the narrative on him drastically changes. The whole "he's not enough of a power hitter for RF" argument is totally irrelevant. Only 12 CF last year posted a positive UZR. And of those 12, only Lorenzo Cain, Odubel Herrera, A.J. Pollock, Mike Trout, and Mookie Betts posted OBP over .320. From a hitting perspective, his 121 wRC+ is better than all but Cain, Trout, and Pollock. No one in baseball is going to compete with Trout really when you factor in he plays CF. It's also interesting to note the dbacks apparently wouldn't give up Pollock for Miller but instead gave up the #1 pick in this past draft, a top 75 pitcher and a really good young OF for Miller. That being said, he hit 20 HRs last season. Cain hit 16. Both stole more bases than Heyward. Heyward at least in RF put up a higher UZR than both. Cain was pretty close at 14.3 compared to the 20.2 Heyward put up in RF(plus the 2.3 in CF) while Pollock only put up 6.5.

Given all that, I wonder if all this talk of moving Soler was never part of the plan. Obviously it's tough to say how good defensively he will be in CF but then we asked the same question about Fowler prior to the season and he was average after having been below average prior. And other than potentially how you read the ball off the bat in CF vs RF I can't come up with a compelling argument as to why he wont be just as good in CF. He seems to have the range. I know some have also suggested CF might not be ideal because of the wear and tear he would take. Considering he has 2 opt-out clauses he may use, I'm not 100% sure that's a problem. I mean if he uses himself up defensively in CF and plays well enough to opt out, then he's not really your problem anymore.

I mean we'll see what Fowler gets but at an AAV of $23 mil/season if Fowler gets $17-18 mil think you can make a compelling argument that the difference in age and durability(Fowler often was hurt prior to 2015) along with Heyward's better defense is well worth $5 or so mil a season.

Na, not obsessive at all! :ucrazy:
 

beckdawg

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It also probably doesn't help I'm living with some family members but they took off to florida for the holidays. It's sort of like this in my house atm only sub baseball with beer.

[video=youtube_share;gFliSGMld4g]https://youtu.be/gFliSGMld4g?t=49[/video]
 

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I'm not sure if the Cubs really want him in CF or not but clearly they're prepared for that possibility, at least for a period of time. They would like that elusive cost controlled starter, likely in exchange for Soler, which would allow them to get a defensive CF and move Heyward to RF. The problem is that the Shelby Miller trade has set the market for the kind of pitcher they want absurdly high. Until that market corrects itself they might have a difficult time landing a guy. Of course that could happen this summer. F I had to bet I'd say Heyward opens the season in CF. That will work fine in the short term plus it will be fun watching Bruce Levine's head explode after he's been insisting that Heyward can't and won't play CF a for the Cubs.
 

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I'm not sure if the Cubs really want him in CF or not but clearly they're prepared for that possibility, at least for a period of time. They would like that elusive cost controlled starter, likely in exchange for Soler, which would allow them to get a defensive CF and move Heyward to RF. The problem is that the Shelby Miller trade has set the market for the kind of pitcher they want absurdly high. Until that market corrects itself they might have a difficult time landing a guy. Of course that could happen this summer. F I had to bet I'd say Heyward opens the season in CF. That will work fine in the short term plus it will be fun watching Bruce Levine's head explode after he's been insisting that Heyward can't and won't play CF a for the Cubs.
One of the most interesting things about Heyward in CF is what Beckdawg mentioned about his power numbers. He isn't a traditional corner OF. As a CF he is above average in production, IMHO. Then add in the defense. I hope this is what we see opening day.
 

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One of the most interesting things about Heyward in CF is what Beckdawg mentioned about his power numbers. He isn't a traditional corner OF. As a CF he is above average in production, IMHO. Then add in the defense. I hope this is what we see opening day.
It possible they can just add a simple defensive CFer/OFer for the bench or just stick with Sczur and we see a lot of defensive changes late in games with Heyward going to Left or Right
 

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It possible they can just add a simple defensive CFer/OFer for the bench or just stick with Sczur and we see a lot of defensive changes late in games with Heyward going to Left or Right
Solid idea. You could put Baez at 2B, move Zobrist to LF and Heyward to RF, if you put a guy like Szczur in CF late in those games.
 

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They haven't said they are looking for a CF. all they said is they are looking for more pitching in trades.

Rather they hold the deck and make a rental trade. Let the season dictate if they need to move talent.
 

chibears55

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They haven't said they are looking for a CF. all they said is they are looking for more pitching in trades.

Rather they hold the deck and make a rental trade. Let the season dictate if they need to move talent.
@TheCCO: #Cubs | Marcell Ozuna Reportedly Among Centerfielders on Cubs List bit.ly/1UjwXCi #MLB

It still out there...
 

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Where else you gonna put him. Make him a catcher and he will end up weighing 300 lbs
On the bench. Zobrist goes to LF in the late innings for defense. Inserting Szczur (or other defensive CF) moves Heyward to RF (replacing Soler) and Baez goes to 2B to replace Zobrist who goes to LF.
 

CSF77

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You don't bench that bat.
 

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On the bench. Zobrist goes to LF in the late innings for defense. Inserting Szczur (or other defensive CF) moves Heyward to RF (replacing Soler) and Baez goes to 2B to replace Zobrist who goes to LF.

I would not underestimate Schwarber. He's driven and coachable. I think he'll be fine in LF with some work and, even though I've never been high on his catching, he could probably play 30 games bend the plate if/when they need him. Probably when Montero goes.
 

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