IST: Cubs(13-10) at Cards(18-6)

SilenceS

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It's simple. Your offense gave you 13 runs in 2 games and you are 0-2. That can't happen. Starters and bullpen to blame. Wood shit the bed with the Cardinals when he allowed 4 back after our 5 spot. You can't let a team like the Cardinals do that. The cardinals O is good but it isn't this godsend. We walked batters and we were throwing meatballs over the plate. It's either right the problem or have a frustrating year.


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CSF77

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Not yet on a rehab assignment. Last I had heard was mid May so could be soon. He could very well be given a spot start in June to see how he responds. I wouldn't count chickens and all that plus there are no guarantees this guy will turn it around. There were positive signs and then he got hurt. The rotation needs two starters if Turner could come back and win the 5th spot and they could trade for a guy that is no less than a number 3 than those are some good steps. I've seen enough of Hendricks and Wood is basically what he is.

"I have a lot of faith in this guy," Maddon said. "I don't think everything is working for him right now. The ball doesn't have that typical sink because he's a heavy groundball pitcher and you're not seeing that now. That tells you the pitch is more flat than down."
The problem isn't a lack of confidence.
"Honestly, my confidence was there today," Hendricks said. "I got kind of rolling but couldn't get a 1-2-3 inning. Too many baserunners. I just don't have that feel. I know I can get guys out at this level. It's just getting that feel."

It really sounds like he needs a few starts to work on it in Iowa. He has not put together a quality start this year.

Pen situation:

ST. LOUIS -- The Cubs re-stocked the bullpen on Tuesday, adding right-hander Anthony Varvaro and lefty James Russell.

Varvaro, who was claimed off waivers from the Red Sox on Sunday, was called up from Triple-A Iowa, while Russell's contract was selected from the Minor League team. The Cubs optioned right-hander Gonzalez Germen to Iowa and placed outfielder Chris Denorfia on the 15-day disabled list to make room on the 25-man roster. Right-hander Blake Parker was designated for assignment to make room on the 40-man roster for Russell.
"They're badly needed right now," Cubs manager Joe Maddon said of Varvaro and Russell.
Russell returns to the Cubs, who he came up with after being drafted in 2007. The lefty was dealt to Atlanta last July and was in the Braves camp this spring, but he was released on March 29. He signed a Minor League contract with the Cubs on April 8. In seven games at Iowa, the lefty gave up four hits, did not walk a batter and struck out 12 over 9 2/3 innings. He has three saves.
"We were excited he signed back with us," general manager Jed Hoyer said. "He was a tough guy to trade, we all liked him. He's gone down there and gotten things together. We just feel like we need the extra pitching."
Hoyer said there was good debate as to what move to make, and the consensus finally was that they needed more pitching.
"I love being at 12 pitchers because I think it gives Joe more versatility on the bench, especially with three catchers," Hoyer said. "It's a luxury we don't have. ... Right now we'll be at 13 [pitchers], and we'll be at 13 until we feel we're rested enough to get away from that."
The Cubs do have reinforcements. They could be close to getting right-hander Justin Grimm back. He's been on the disabled list all season with a strained right forearm but threw one inning for Iowa on Monday, and all reports were good. Neil Ramirez, also on the DL with a strained right shoulder, will throw off the mound Wednesday in Mesa, Ariz., where he's rehabbing.
"I think when bullpens do get frayed is what's happening to us now," Hoyer said. "When you can line up your seventh-inning guy, your lefty specialist, your eighth-inning guy and your closer, when you can line them up, you're dangerous. When you're scrambling, you end up with games like 10-9 because guys are in roles they're not accustomed to."

Adding Ramirez back to the 7th and Grimm into middle relief will be a major boost. Russell back now, well I hope he rebounds. I agree with the last paragraph of what Jed said. They really need to get it back to Ramirez, Strop, Rondon again with Coke in as the lefty guy.
Right now the pen is jumbled. Rondon and Strop in as late leads. Motte has been used un many roles. Jackson mid relief. Germen now booted off was filling in in many roles. But the pen is now: Rondon, Strop, Motte, Jackson, Varvaro, Coke, Rosscup, Russell.

Varvaro(another Red sox dumpster dive) IDK Career 183 IP 150 SO so not at 1:1 Not sure if I like that out of a bull pen arm. He was hit at .311 this year. That is a blip as his career mark is .239. That could just be a mechanical issue or just bad location going on. End of the day I feel that he is just a placeholder for Grimm.
 

CSF77

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Iowa's SP:
Donn Roach (Has a nasty overhand 12-6 curve) 3-0 2.59 ERA 1.09 WHIP 11 SO's in 31 IP. red flag to me. 25 and has bounced around sense 2010. OK filler guy if needed.

Wada 0-3 3.68 ERA 1.45 WHIP 22 IP 17 SO He has not looked like the guy that dominated AAA last year.

Carlos Pimentel Threw a shut out last night. But body of work: 1-2 5.40 ERA 1.43 WHIP 21 SO in 21.2 IP Strike out ratio is strong. If he can build off the shut out then he may become an interesting option.

Jokisch: (little disappointed with him) 1-0 4.00 ERA 1.67 WHIP 12 SO in 18 IP. I believe he get bounced off the roster next year. He has really not put it together.

Shoot outside of Roach (who is a journeyman) there is not much going on here. Cubs need to start addressing this issue. Right now they are forced to look into trading up or waiting until the off season.

Top arms: Edwards struggling in the pen in Tenn (2nd year there), Johnson (has not pitched this year/again), Underwood 3-0 1.29 ERA in A+ Right now he is the new top starter prospect. Corey Black looks like the closest thing to the majors. power pitcher that can get it up to 100 MPH. 1-1 3.51 ERA 1.17 WHIP 28 SO in 25.8 IP 11 BB Shoot I would be tempted to bump him up to Iowa because you can't teach 100 mph.
 

CSF77

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Bingo:

ST. LOUIS -- The Cubs got a key member of the bullpen back on Wednesday, activating right-hander Justin Grimm from the disabled list.

The Cubs also recalled outfielder Matt Szczur and optioned Junior Lake to Triple-A Iowa. Right-hander Anthony Varvaro, who was added on Tuesday after he was claimed off waivers from the Red Sox, was designated for assignment.
Both Grimm and Szczur will be available to play Wednesday vs. the Cardinals at 7:15 p.m. CT.
Grimm, 26, opened the season with the big league team but never pitched, and he was placed on the disabled list on April 10 with right forearm inflammation. He made one rehab appearance with Triple-A Iowa, throwing a scoreless inning with a walk and two strikeouts on Monday.
Grimm compiled a 3.78 ERA in 73 relief appearances last year with the Cubs -- his first full season in the Majors.
Szczur, 25, joins the Cubs for the second time this season. He made the Opening Day roster and went 2-for-10 with one double and one RBI in eight games before being optioned April 19. With Iowa, Szczur batted .262 (11-for-42) with two homers, a triple and seven RBsI in 11 games this season.
Lake, 25, was 4-for-14 with one double and one RBI in four games with the Cubs.
Varvaro, 30, was claimed off waivers on Sunday. He was added to the 25-man roster Tuesday but he did not appear in the game. He was traded from the Braves to the Red Sox last Dec. 17, and he went 0-1 with a 4.09 ERA (five earned runs in 11 innings pitched) in nine relief appearances this season with Boston before being designated for assignment on April 29.
 

CSF77

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So Pen now:

CL: Rondon
8th: Strop
7th: Motte

MR: Grimm
MR: Jackson

LH: Russell, Coke, Rosscup
 

beckdawg

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Status Que they are a .500 team. If they add another bat and a #3 SP it bumps them into the 85+ win realm. Which is wild card.

My problem with Hendricks is very simple. I felt last year was a fluke. This year he is proving me right. Talent proves it self. His stuff has to be point on to even pitch at this level and it has not been this year. He lacks a 90+ fastball so he depends on the location of his sinker. I've suggested that he goes back to Iowa where he can work on his pitch sequence and let him build up to be able to get into the 7th inning more vs puttering just enough to get past the 5th. At this point I would rather give Wada a few starts.

The thing with Hendricks is he has no problem getting to the 7th if his command is good. The problem is his stuff is often not good enough. Going to AAA isn't going to fix that barring some new amazing pitch developing which let's be realistic isn't going to happen. 85 wins probably isn't wild card to be honest. Last year 88 and 89 wins got you wild card. Regardless, Hendricks is fine as a 5th pitcher on basically every team in the league. He's going to have some games where teams hit him. He's going to have some good games. I was watching on fox sports midwest last night and they were talking about getting to him early because his second time through the line up teams were hitting under .200 against him. He's never going to be a top of the rotation guy and it's unfair to try and push him there. But as a #4/5 he's fine. However, you need to have a bull pen capable of saving him if he gets into trouble in the 5th+. That's the reality of most back of the rotation starters. That's the difference between your top of the rotation players because you expect them to go out and give you 6-7 innings a start.

The problem with trying to upgrade is you're often going to be the sucker in a deal for pitching. Case in point look at the Hammel "upgrade" for the A's last year. Same case for Garza to texas and Dempster before him. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying you totally avoid it. What I'm trying to illustrate is you have to be careful about who you target. It's not as easy as finding anyone who's available. It'd be rather disheartening to trade prospects to get Edwin Jackson 2.0
 

beckdawg

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It's simple. Your offense gave you 13 runs in 2 games and you are 0-2. That can't happen. Starters and bullpen to blame. Wood shit the bed with the Cardinals when he allowed 4 back after our 5 spot. You can't let a team like the Cardinals do that. The cardinals O is good but it isn't this godsend. We walked batters and we were throwing meatballs over the plate. It's either right the problem or have a frustrating year.


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I'd still argue it's on the bull pen to be honest. I mean look the cardinals are the best team in baseball. Why? Martinez and Lyons both were as bad as Wood and Hendricks and neither got out of the 5th inning. Wood left the game up 2 runs and the Cardinals bull pen got them through the game. Hendricks left the game tied and the cards bullpen gave up 0 runs. That's literally the difference between the two games. Well that and unfortunately Rizzo not coming through with the bases loaded last night.
 

CSF77

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The thing with Hendricks is he has no problem getting to the 7th if his command is good. The problem is his stuff is often not good enough. Going to AAA isn't going to fix that barring some new amazing pitch developing which let's be realistic isn't going to happen. 85 wins probably isn't wild card to be honest. Last year 88 and 89 wins got you wild card. Regardless, Hendricks is fine as a 5th pitcher on basically every team in the league. He's going to have some games where teams hit him. He's going to have some good games. I was watching on fox sports midwest last night and they were talking about getting to him early because his second time through the line up teams were hitting under .200 against him. He's never going to be a top of the rotation guy and it's unfair to try and push him there. But as a #4/5 he's fine. However, you need to have a bull pen capable of saving him if he gets into trouble in the 5th+. That's the reality of most back of the rotation starters. That's the difference between your top of the rotation players because you expect them to go out and give you 6-7 innings a start.

The problem with trying to upgrade is you're often going to be the sucker in a deal for pitching. Case in point look at the Hammel "upgrade" for the A's last year. Same case for Garza to texas and Dempster before him. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying you totally avoid it. What I'm trying to illustrate is you have to be careful about who you target. It's not as easy as finding anyone who's available. It'd be rather disheartening to trade prospects to get Edwin Jackson 2.0

It is more of building up a rhythem against lesser talent then translating it over to the majors. Right now he doesn't have a feel for his pitches. Bottom line is the games up matter more than the games at Iowa. If he is not getting the job done they need to get someone up who can.
 

CSF77

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I'd still argue it's on the bull pen to be honest. I mean look the cardinals are the best team in baseball. Why? Martinez and Lyons both were as bad as Wood and Hendricks and neither got out of the 5th inning. Wood left the game up 2 runs and the Cardinals bull pen got them through the game. Hendricks left the game tied and the cards bullpen gave up 0 runs. That's literally the difference between the two games. Well that and unfortunately Rizzo not coming through with the bases loaded last night.

Getting Grimm will help.

Line up:
Fowler
Coghlan
Rizzo
Bryant
Soler
Castro
Ross
Lester
Russell

So it looks like they are pushing the LF platoon to the 2 hole and using Soler to protect Bryant. That is fine. I'm wondering how long they are going to cater to Lester with Ross though. This seems like a Maddon decision because Lester seemed open to working with Montero. It almost seems like it has become a personal catcher thing going on now. Castillo has been catching Wood mostly. Ross only with Lester. Montero rest of the games. Sad thing is Montero is hitting .300 and you really miss his stick vs a RH SP. So I really hope this ends soon.
 

CSF77

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Fowler: .330 OBA last 10 hitting .268
Coghlan: .273 OBA last 10 hitting .179
Rizzo .473 OBA last 10 hitting .361
Bryant: .442 OBA last 10 hitting .229
Soler: .327 OBA last 10 hitting .216
Castro: .324 OBA last 10 hitting .214
Ross: .409 OBA (he takes walks BA is .188)
Lester: .000 OBA
Russell: .292 OBA last 10 hitting .297

Rizzo is really on another level right now. Russell seems to be adapting well.
 

beckdawg

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It is more of building up a rhythem against lesser talent then translating it over to the majors. Right now he doesn't have a feel for his pitches. Bottom line is the games up matter more than the games at Iowa. If he is not getting the job done they need to get someone up who can.

It's like I said before. That's what most #5 starter are though. He went 5 innings vs the only team in baseball with 20 wins and the game was tied when he left. If you're expecting more than that out of your #5 starter then you have unrealistic expectations. Would I like to have a #5 with a 3 ERA and consistently going 7 innings? Obviously but finding that much pitching isn't normal. Again, look at the two starters the Cards had the past 2 games. Are they that much better than Hendricks and Wood? I mean maybe you argue Martinez is more talented but the guy has such control issues he often has trouble getting out of the first 5 innings.

I guess it just bugs me that people are focusing on the wrong things. Wood and Hendricks both gave the cubs a chance to win. Neither lost the team the game. Clearly they weren't dominant and "won" the game either. But that's not what you expect out of your #4/5 starters. You expect the rest of the team to pick them up. This is exemplified in the old adage "Spahn and Sain and pray for rain." I mean even if you want to talk about the 2003 team that people had such hope for. That year Clement and Estes had a 4.11/4.14 ERA/FIP and 5.73/5.04 FIP respectively. That's a team that was within a few outs of the world series.

You want to assign blame for this series? Let's start with the fact the cubs are 6-27(.222) with runners in scoring position. Then you go to the bull pen giving up 7 runs in 6 innings the past two nights. Compare that to the cards who are 9-22(.409) and 1 earned run in 10 innings from their bullpen. That's the difference between the Cards who are the best team in baseball and the cubs who are a .500 team. It's not the #4/5 starters.
 

chibears55

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If Lester gives up 2+ runs in first after cubs score 2.
im going to bed
 

CSF77

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It's like I said before. That's what most #5 starter are though. He went 5 innings vs the only team in baseball with 20 wins and the game was tied when he left. If you're expecting more than that out of your #5 starter then you have unrealistic expectations. Would I like to have a #5 with a 3 ERA and consistently going 7 innings? Obviously but finding that much pitching isn't normal. Again, look at the two starters the Cards had the past 2 games. Are they that much better than Hendricks and Wood? I mean maybe you argue Martinez is more talented but the guy has such control issues he often has trouble getting out of the first 5 innings.

I guess it just bugs me that people are focusing on the wrong things. Wood and Hendricks both gave the cubs a chance to win. Neither lost the team the game. Clearly they weren't dominant and "won" the game either. But that's not what you expect out of your #4/5 starters. You expect the rest of the team to pick them up. This is exemplified in the old adage "Spahn and Sain and pray for rain." I mean even if you want to talk about the 2003 team that people had such hope for. That year Clement and Estes had a 4.11/4.14 ERA/FIP and 5.73/5.04 FIP respectively. That's a team that was within a few outs of the world series.

You want to assign blame for this series? Let's start with the fact the cubs are 6-27(.222) with runners in scoring position. Then you go to the bull pen giving up 7 runs in 6 innings the past two nights. Compare that to the cards who are 9-22(.409) and 1 earned run in 10 innings from their bullpen. That's the difference between the Cards who are the best team in baseball and the cubs who are a .500 team. It's not the #4/5 starters.

You sure are good at making excuses for guys you like and blasting guys you don't. Swear I thought this stuff would have ended when Baez and Alcantara went down to AAA.

I never said he needed to just go away. I feel he needs to get himself right. And putting up a 5+ ERA is not helping a team trying to establish itself. The pen has blown some leads but the fact is both starters have barely gotten out of the 5th and have put 8 innings on a shaky pen.

Onto this game: They need a solid 7 out of Lester to get the pen realigned. Getting Grimm back should help here as I would expect to see him first.
 

beckdawg

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You sure are good at making excuses for guys you like and blasting guys you don't. Swear I thought this stuff would have ended when Baez and Alcantara went down to AAA.

It's not making excuses. People are bitching about #4/5 starters pitching like #4/5 starters. You want to throw Jackson into the rotation? How about Eric Jokisch who's presently got a 4.00 ERA in Iowa? Because with Beeler, Wada and Turner on the DL those are your only options on the 40 man roster and are you honestly convinced that any of those even if healthy is better? I'd be perfectly fine with them trying someone else if they were healthy but my point is expecting more out of them is setting yourself up for disappointment. Teams don't trade players this early outside of weird circumstances like Hamilton. Of the 226 pitchers this season who have pitched 20 or more innings 50% of them have an ERA over 4. In other words, half the starters in the majors have an ERA over 4 right now. About 20% of the starters in the majors have an ERA over 5.

You're acting as though there is some simple solution that will solve the problem. My entire point is most of the majors have crappy #4 and 5 pitchers. Good teams win despite their #4/5 starters. It's like people bitching that their teams bench players don't hit 25+ HRs. Of course they don't because there's not that much talent in the league.
 

CSF77

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It's not making excuses. People are bitching about #4/5 starters pitching like #4/5 starters. You want to throw Jackson into the rotation? How about Eric Jokisch who's presently got a 4.00 ERA in Iowa? Because with Beeler, Wada and Turner on the DL those are your only options on the 40 man roster and are you honestly convinced that any of those even if healthy is better? I'd be perfectly fine with them trying someone else if they were healthy but my point is expecting more out of them is setting yourself up for disappointment. Teams don't trade players this early outside of weird circumstances like Hamilton. Of the 226 pitchers this season who have pitched 20 or more innings 50% of them have an ERA over 4. In other words, half the starters in the majors have an ERA over 4 right now. About 20% of the starters in the majors have an ERA over 5.

You're acting as though there is some simple solution that will solve the problem. My entire point is most of the majors have crappy #4 and 5 pitchers. Good teams win despite their #4/5 starters. It's like people bitching that their teams bench players don't hit 25+ HRs. Of course they don't because there's not that much talent in the league.

Personally I would promote Wada for 5 games while Hendricks gets the feel back to his pitches. I wouldn't make a 40 man change. Will they do this? Doubtful. What I think they might end up doing? Trading for Cole. They have Baez, Vogelbach to start with. Phills are in dire need to rebuild and should end up eating some of the deal to get a better return out of the Cubs. The Cubs still have a wealth or resource and adding Cole to the rotation makes this team a contender alone.
 

beckdawg

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Personally I would promote Wada for 5 games while Hendricks gets the feel back to his pitches. I wouldn't make a 40 man change. Will they do this? Doubtful. What I think they might end up doing? Trading for Cole. They have Baez, Vogelbach to start with. Phills are in dire need to rebuild and should end up eating some of the deal to get a better return out of the Cubs. The Cubs still have a wealth or resource and adding Cole to the rotation makes this team a contender alone.

Looking on espn's player card thing they had this.

Wada is in the midst of a rehab assignment with Triple-A Iowa, making three starts over which he's allowed nine earned runs with 12 strikeouts in 15 innings. The lefty appears to be progressing well and should be in line to get activated off the disabled list in early May.

Like I said, I don't have an issue with them trying something different. It's not that I'm so attached to Wood or Hendricks. However, I feel like if you're expecting more than a mid 4's ERA out of Wada you're probably going to be disappointed. Sure he was good last season but for one he's 34 so expecting a break out at 34 is a bit much. And for two if you look at his underlying numbers in the majors last season he had a 7.40/2.47 k/9 bb/9 and a 3.25/3.75 ERA/FIP. If you're presumably replacing Hendricks with him you're talking about Hendricks having a 7.01/2.10 k/9 bb/9 this season with a 5.61/4.13 ERA/FIP.

From my standpoint, there's not much difference between the two which again goes to illustrate the point I am trying to make that most #4/5 starters aren't very good. So, if they want to try Wada or whomever I'm fine with it but I don't think it solves the larger issue of why the cubs lost the past 2 games. That's why I think the talk of #4/5 starters is largely irrelevant. In my view, the young offense hitting better with runners on and the bullpen getting back Grimm and Ramirez are far more important to the team than whomever is their #4/5 pitcher. That's all I'm trying to say here.
 

CSF77

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Looking on espn's player card thing they had this.



Like I said, I don't have an issue with them trying something different. It's not that I'm so attached to Wood or Hendricks. However, I feel like if you're expecting more than a mid 4's ERA out of Wada you're probably going to be disappointed. Sure he was good last season but for one he's 34 so expecting a break out at 34 is a bit much. And for two if you look at his underlying numbers in the majors last season he had a 7.40/2.47 k/9 bb/9 and a 3.25/3.75 ERA/FIP. If you're presumably replacing Hendricks with him you're talking about Hendricks having a 7.01/2.10 k/9 bb/9 this season with a 5.61/4.13 ERA/FIP.

From my standpoint, there's not much difference between the two which again goes to illustrate the point I am trying to make that most #4/5 starters aren't very good. So, if they want to try Wada or whomever I'm fine with it but I don't think it solves the larger issue of why the cubs lost the past 2 games. That's why I think the talk of #4/5 starters is largely irrelevant. In my view, the young offense hitting better with runners on and the bullpen getting back Grimm and Ramirez are far more important to the team than whomever is their #4/5 pitcher. That's all I'm trying to say here.

I get that and that is why I said it was doubtful. What I'm taking this series as is a measuring stick for the Cubs and where they stand. If Lester can pull a win against them it tells me that both Hendricks and Wood are too risky for a play off series. At the end of the day that is what this boils down to. Who do you trust? In a 7 game the Cubs will have to use 1 of the 2 and you do not want to give a loss like that. At worse you want your %4 being Hammel.

Another thing to think about is if they did trade for Cole it keeps him off the Cards for the next few years. The last thing they need is to deal with Wayno and Cole...swear would be like facing the Dodgers then.
 

chibears55

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Another good game by Rizzo..

Said before in another thread....

This offense is going to score 4 + runs at least 90- 100 times this year..
Its going to be up to the pitching to make those runs hold up for most of those games..
 

justaChifan

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Hell of a game going on right now.
Baseball genius could be discussed some where other than a game thread, right?
 

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