Jeff Samardzija and Jason Hammel traded to Oakland Athletics for Addison Russell plus

dabynsky

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Well that comes with the obvious question as to why they'd deal the guy. Just as an aside, if you compare the situations of the Giants and Rockies the Giants are already in first place. Their starter era is 3.51. The rockies by contrast have a team starter era of 4.77. Colorado is 2 back in the wild card. I think it's pretty fair to wonder what the giants motivation here is in trading a top 50 prospect for a relatively minor upgrade overall. Lincecum and Vogelsong would clearly be replaceable but if we assume they are going to make the playoffs, they already have 3 quality starters for playoff series in Cain, Hudson, and Bumgardner and both Lincecum and Vogelsong have played well in the playoffs if memory serves last time the Giants made a title run.

I suppose their motivation doesn't particularly matter if you think Crick is the goods even if they may or may not. However, a team like the rockies being perhaps a bit more desperate to consider trading a Gray level prospects makes sense. They clearly need the pitching badly to make a run. In their case, Butler has just hit the majors and while he got shelled in his first outing they obviously hope to get more out of him. Tyler Matzek a former high round pick finally hit the majors and pitched good in his first start. Jordan Lyles has been a decent starter for them as well. However, most of their other regulars have been 4+ ERA. And while Brett Anderson has only made two starts due to a finger injury, he should return shortly. Even when everyone is healthy they don't have "the guy" at the top.

Hypothetically, if they traded for Shark, you would have him, Brett Anderson(26), Jordan Lyles(23), Butler(23), Matzek(23), Tyler Chatwood(24) as MLB ready or pretty close in the case of Butler and Matzek. They also drafted Kyle Freeland as a college arm with the 8th pick. They also have Jhoulys Chacin as an Arb. 3 player. Obviously you can make the case for them being patient with Gray. I mean he's not far away right? The problem is that Cargo and Tulow are arguably at their peaks right now. I read something about the Indians in the pre-moneyball times having a database that calculated a players peak year at 29 typically. It was an interesting read that you can view here if you want. Anyways, Tulow is 29 this year. Cargo is 28.

So, while Gray looks every bit the part of a top of the rotation starter, can they honestly afford to wait maybe 2 years for him to be a full time starter? They along with the O's are really the only team with a pitching prospect who has TOR potential where I feel it makes sense for them to go for it. In the case of the Rockies, it makes a lot of sense if you think Shark can get you to the playoffs. They have numerous younger options for 4/5th starters and enough highly thought of young arms that the loss of Gray wouldn't really kill you.

I don't get what you mean by being a full time starter in two years? Are you talking about him being developmental ready because I doubt he takes that time. Are you talking about him being able to handle the starters workload? Again I don't see them having to wait on Gray for that long, and again we agree that Gray is the goods here. So why don't they try him first before dealing him and more to get Samardzija?

I understand the Cubs wanting to get TOR/mlb ready arms for Shark. I don't understand why another team trades one of those guys for Samardzija besides being desperate/dumb.
 

beckdawg

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I don't get what you mean by being a full time starter in two years? Are you talking about him being developmental ready because I doubt he takes that time. Are you talking about him being able to handle the starters workload? Again I don't see them having to wait on Gray for that long, and again we agree that Gray is the goods here. So why don't they try him first before dealing him and more to get Samardzija?

I understand the Cubs wanting to get TOR/mlb ready arms for Shark. I don't understand why another team trades one of those guys for Samardzija besides being desperate/dumb.

I meant full time at the major league level. Sorry if I wasn't clear. Basically, I'm saying it's likely a year from now at the very earliest before Gray is called up and stays up. And then there's the possibility of him needing to adjust to major league pitching. In other words, you realistically wont see his best for most likely 2+ years. As for why another team would consider trading a TOR guy for Shark, let's not forget they are still prospects. I don't think Shark is an ace in the sense of him being one of the top 15 pitchers in the league. But clearly he's shown this year he's definitely deserving of being talked about in that second tier of pitching. If your teams window is say the next 3-4 years you can make a strong case that Shark is a more valuable player than someone in AA right now no matter how good their future may be.

Is that desperation? Maybe. I mean I also didn't bring up the aspect that some GMs who have those type of pitchers could be on the hot seat and may not care about the future past the next 2-3 years if they don't keep their job. While I agree it's not a move every team will be willing to make, it makes sense for a few teams.
 

dabynsky

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I meant full time at the major league level. Sorry if I wasn't clear. Basically, I'm saying it's likely a year from now at the very earliest before Gray is called up and stays up. And then there's the possibility of him needing to adjust to major league pitching. In other words, you realistically wont see his best for most likely 2+ years. As for why another team would consider trading a TOR guy for Shark, let's not forget they are still prospects. I don't think Shark is an ace in the sense of him being one of the top 15 pitchers in the league. But clearly he's shown this year he's definitely deserving of being talked about in that second tier of pitching. If your teams window is say the next 3-4 years you can make a strong case that Shark is a more valuable player than someone in AA right now no matter how good their future may be.

Is that desperation? Maybe. I mean I also didn't bring up the aspect that some GMs who have those type of pitchers could be on the hot seat and may not care about the future past the next 2-3 years if they don't keep their job. While I agree it's not a move every team will be willing to make, it makes sense for a few teams.
I would be happy to be wrong about this and gladly will pluck the second and third draft picks from last years draft, but I just can't see it when I look at it from the other team's perspective. That is why the upside but flawed arm like Crick makes more sense to me than Gray being dealt.
 

beckdawg

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I would be happy to be wrong about this and gladly will pluck the second and third draft picks from last years draft, but I just can't see it when I look at it from the other team's perspective. That is why the upside but flawed arm like Crick makes more sense to me than Gray being dealt.

I mean I get what you're saying. But also consider that in 2011 mlb.com had Jarrod Parker, Jameson Taillon, Dellin Betances, Drew Pomeranz, Kyle Gibson, Jacob Turner, Mike Montgomery, Tyler Skaggs, Casey Kelly, Jake Odorizzi and Manny Banuelos as top 30 prospects. 3 years later are any of them even really competing with Shark? And I mean I get it. Development isn't linear and those players still could be something. But if you were a fan of a team like the Rockies 3 years ago would you be so sure about giving up one of them?
 

chibears55

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@jonmorosi: Sources: Cubs telling teams they are willing to listen to offers for starting pitchers Samardzija, Hammel, E. Jackson and Arrieta. (more)

@jonmorosi: Cubs not planning to *trade* all 4, but they want to see what market values are for each and then decide on course. Due diligence.

@jonmorosi: Jackson has a large contract and ERA above 5.00. Arrieta would draw interest from more clubs; first-time arb eligible next year.

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chibears55

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Just heard on sports talk chicago as they were discussing samardzija and trades that samardzija is looking for 6 yrs 135 million. I never knew what he was asking for but that crazy money for him, I can see why their looking to move him..

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brett05

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Just heard on sports talk chicago as they were discussing samardzija and trades that samardzija is looking for 6 yrs 135 million. I never knew what he was asking for but that crazy money for him, I can see why their looking to move him..

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im surprise its that low for the Cubs

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Trading Arrieta would be really dumb. If Shark is asking for that amount then they should definitely trade him in the next month because that's going to be his max value. Hopefully he continues to be great the next month and a half and we can get a big haul
 

Captain Obvious

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im surprise its that low for the Cubs

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You expected him to ask for more? He'd be the 6th highest paid pitcher in baseball. That's ridiculous.

This year he is the 18th best pitcher per WAR. Last 3 years has been the 21st best. He's worth about 15 million a year. I just don't see what leverage he has to ask for much more.
 

brett05

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You expected him to ask for more? He'd be the 6th highest paid pitcher in baseball. That's ridiculous.

This year he is the 18th best pitcher per WAR. Last 3 years has been the 21st best. He's worth about 15 million a year. I just don't see what leverage he has to ask for much more.
to play for the Cubs??? be real please

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Captain Obvious

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to play for the Cubs??? be real please

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To play for any team. Danks is the 18th highest paid pitcher at 15.75 MM and Ervin Santana is the 21st at 14 MM.

I suppose that Shark's numbers have been better than Danks, Santana, and Peavy's, but not Scherzer's... so maybe a little more, but he's worth around 15-17 MM. I don't see why that is so hard to see...
 

brett05

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I doubt he will be playing for any team at 22 per for 6 yrs. .
16-18 tops per depending on how he finishes the year

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that maybe, but more money and an ntc is what the Cubs need to offer for a top 30 pitcher

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brett05

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To play for any team. Danks is the 18th highest paid pitcher at 15.75 MM and Ervin Santana is the 21st at 14 MM.

I suppose that Shark's numbers have been better than Danks, Santana, and Peavy's, but not Scherzer's... so maybe a little more, but he's worth around 15-17 MM. I don't see why that is so hard to see...
max rejected 26 million per

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chibears55

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that maybe, but more money and an ntc is what the Cubs need to offer for a top 30 pitcher

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who knows what cubs countered but im sure it was less then 20 per and definitely no NTC..



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