Jeff Samardzija and Jason Hammel traded to Oakland Athletics for Addison Russell plus

[DewsSox79]

I hear ya.

Here's a thought....what do you think might have happened to the Cubs if John McDonough didn't get enticed by Rocky Wirtz's offer? I mean he took the what many called the worst franchise in pro sports (Blackhawks) and in a few short years made them one of the best franchises in sports. What if the Cubs had retained him and gave him the power that Wirtz did?

Well, as a huge Hawk fan....I'd still be in a funk as would the team probably....just wonder how that might have worked out for the Cubs.

i think he would have been an asset for the cubs and he would have helped a lot with PR but mcdonough or not the hawks would still have had amazing teams on the ice. maybe no red carpet events but it wouldnt have changed talent.


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[chibears55]

I hear ya.

Here's a thought....what do you think might have happened to the Cubs if John McDonough didn't get enticed by Rocky Wirtz's offer? I mean he took the what many called the worst franchise in pro sports (Blackhawks) and in a few short years made them one of the best franchises in sports. What if the Cubs had retained him and gave him the power that Wirtz did?

Well, as a huge Hawk fan....I'd still be in a funk as would the team probably....just wonder how that might have worked out for the Cubs.

maybe im wrong but McDonough not hands on with players side is he ? isnt he basically doing what he did with the cubs which is more promoting the team, marketing, extending good will to ex players, appealing to fans, making the business side of it better?

so, I don't know how to answer that question. . I think the main reason he left was after 15 yrs of doing baseball he decided to take on a new challenge with hockey and im sure Rocky upbeat enthusiasm was uplifting over the old cranky tribune suits.



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[beckdawg]

Well, as a huge Hawk fan....I'd still be in a funk as would the team probably....just wonder how that might have worked out for the Cubs.

Probably a false option to be honest. There's so many working parts in both baseball and hockey that they are different. Take Mark Appel for example. He was far and away the top prospect in last year's draft. However this year he goes out and has a 11.94 ERA. in A+ for a 22 year old who arguably should dominate that level of league. Had the Astros pasted for whatever reason the cubs under most any management would have taken him.

And honestly, given the circumstances that Theo has been put in, he hasn't done a bad job. They've essentially dropped payroll to 2/3's of what it was when he started and they are roughly at a similar win%. I get why some don't see that as a success. But, when you factor in what he's had to spend you weren't going to suddenly turn them into a contender. You arguably would have need $160-170 mil payroll in 2012 to be a contender. They had $110. In that time frame, they've replenished the farm system into one of the best.

Keep in mind, the Hawks drafted Toews in 2006 and Kane in 2007 and it wasn't until 2008 when both of those players reached the NHL for their second year that they made the playoffs. That's after several years of stocking up the team some with guys like Boland, Seabrook, Crawford, and Keith between 2002-2005. I'm not going to pretend to be highly knowledgeable about the hawks. I'm only a passing hockey fan. But, it wasn't just that they hired better management and suddenly things were better. It starts with a number of smaller players and then they nailed two super starts in Kane and Toews.

In the case of the cubs, Theo has been trying to add some of the smaller pieces by crafty trades for guys like Arrieta and Strop because when he started their best players as it turns out were in A ball. Obviously the hope was Vitters and Jackson were something but as we've seen they haven't been as of yet. And given what he's had to work with he's done a lot with smoke and mirrors some how managing to find 3 quality starters in Maholm, Fedlman, and Hammel for pennies and in turn have dealt 2 for potential pieces they can build around when their stars(Almora, Baez, Bryant) get to the majors. They got Wood for a bullpen arm.

Obviously the restless fans want to see big money spent. However, that's an issue with ownership. Theo is on record as saying he spent every dime they had in 2012-2013. They held on to a chunk of cash for Tanaka and crapped out.

 

[justaChifan]

maybe im wrong but McDonough not hands on with players side is he ? isnt he basically doing what he did with the cubs which is more promoting the team, marketing, extending good will to ex players, appealing to fans, making the business side of it better?

so, I don't know how to answer that question. . I think the main reason he left was after 15 yrs of doing baseball he decided to take on a new challenge with hockey and im sure Rocky upbeat enthusiasm was uplifting over the old cranky tribune suits.



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McDonough, forced by the Trib , came out with a statement that the Cubs were going to win a world series "for the long suffering and deserving Cub fans". Almost guaranteeing it.

No link and maybe not verbatim, but he DID say something along those lines.
After the stated goal wasn't accomplished he probably felt foolish and realized he might not have a position with new ownership anyway, so why not get out.
Plus I don't think he wanted the challenge of selling a complete, entire, major, many year rebuild to the fans he just snookered.

 

[chibears55]

McDonough, forced by the Trib , came out with a statement that the Cubs were going to win a world series "for the long suffering and deserving Cub fans". Almost guaranteeing it.

No link and maybe not verbatim, but he DID say something along those lines.
After the stated goal wasn't accomplished he probably felt foolish and realized he might not have a position with new ownership anyway, so why not get out.
Plus I don't think he wanted the challenge of selling a complete, entire, major, many year rebuild to the fans he just snookered.

it was part of a marketing campaign in 2007 when they brought in pinella, upped payroll and started that run they had. .

seriously people the cubs aren't the only team in sports who tell their fans they want to go play and win the championship even if it looks doubtful. ..

he left after 2007 season, the ricketts didn't buy the team til fall 2009, the rebuild started in off season 2011..
so McDonough unless he visited a psychic had no idea a future rebuild was coming.

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[beckdawg]

Braves right-hander Gavin Floyd has suffered a broken olecranon bone in his right elbow and will be placed on the disabled list, the team announced (Twitter links). While the recovery time has yet to be announced, Yahoo’s Jeff Passan notes that Joel Zumaya suffered the same injury on June 28, 2010 and missed the remainder of the season (Twitter link). Floyd’s case, of course, is its own case and doesn’t necessarily have to follow the same timeline.

Wasn't sure if to include this here or the Hammel thread as I'm not sure which they' be more interested in. But, that should heat up the talks on both more as I believe i'd heard they were mentioned as possible suitors even prior to this.

 

[Diehardfan]

I'm not gonna quote everyone but the bottom line is that if you can't afford to spend with the big boys, particularly if you are in a major market city, you should not own a MLB team. It's that simple. The guy I wanted in here would not be doing things like Ricketts is....counting pennies, lowering payroll, holding back potential stars to keep their salary in line for an extra year or two. I just wish Mark Cuban could've got his hands on the Cubs and I think we can all thank Jerry Reinsdorf for that. Cuban would've made the Sox an even smaller piece of the Chicago sports puzzle and Reinsdorf knew it.

 

[nwfisch]

Exactly Diehard. At some point, the Cubs have to build something at the MLB level. If Shark isn't that guy, fine, I couldn't care less.

Buying to sell isn't going to result in sustained success. And Kris Bryant, Baez etc. won't save the day alone.

Neither will extending or trading Shark be the franchise saver or the "death sentence"

Just figure out what they want to do with him and they should have a conviction that they're doing the right thing.

 

[beckdawg]

They are building things at the major league level just not in the way people want. As I said before, the lack of talent from 2002-2010 left their upper minors pretty devoid of players. People obviously made snide comments when trades like Feldman for Arrieta and Strop happened because they saw a failed played. But the thing they were missing is the cubs had to not only build their young minors but also had to build a group of players they should have had from those 2002-2010 drafts that eventually would have elevated to the MLB level. That's why you have seen a lot of "lightning in a bottle" hopes.

Seriously, look at the 2012 Iowa cubs.
C - Steve Clevenger, Anthony Recker, Juan Apodaca, Castillo(176 ABs), Blake Lalli, Brian Esposito
1B - Rizzo(257 ABs), Greg Rohan, Blake Lalli
2B - Gioskar Amaya, Adrian cardenas, Nate Samson, Alfredo Amezaga, Diory Hernandez
SS - Valbuena(211 ABs), Amezaga, Mat Tolbert
3B - Vitters, Greg Rohan, Diory Hernandez
OF - Jim Adduci, Ty Wright, Edgar Gonzalez, Nate Samson, Tony Campana, Jeff Frazier, Dave Sappelt, Brett Jackson, Jonathan Mota, Blake Dewitt

SP - Rusin, Rodrigo Lopez, Brooks Raley, Frankie De La Cruz, Chris Volstad, Casey Coleman, Jay Jackson, Randy Wells, Ryan Rowland-Smith, Wood, Tyrelle Harris, Yoanner Negrin, Horacio Ramirez, Seth Mcclung, Esmailin Caridada
RP - Alfredo Amezaga, Marmol, Jonathan Mota, Ryan Searle, Jario Asencio, Rafael Dolis, Michael Bowden, Scott Maine, Blake Parker, Jeff Beliveau, Manuel Corpas, Alberto Cabrera, Miguel Socolovich, Frank Batista, Brian Esposito, Jaye Chapman, Mike Macdougal, Nate Robertso, Marcus Hatley, Juan Apodaca, Blake Lalli, Shane Lindsay, Dan Berlind

And let's not stop there. Here's the 2012 Smokies
C - Juan Apodaca, Michael Brenly, Luis Flores, Chad Noble
1B - Justin Bour
2B - Logan Watkins, Nate Samson, Dustin Harrington, Elliott Soto
SS - Junior Lake
3B - Jonathan Mota, Lake, Samson, Matthew Cerda, Greg Rohan, Dustin Harrington,
OF - Ty Wright, Jim Adduci, Jonathan Mota, Jae-Hoon Ha, Rubi Silva, Michael Burgress, Matt Szczur, Nelson Perez, Rebel Riding

SP - Dallas Beeler, Nick Struck, Dae-Eun Rhee, Eric Jokisch, Trey Mcnutt, Brooks Raley, Austin Kirk, Lendry Castilo, Tyrelle Haris, Jeffery Antigua, Ryan Searle, Casey Harmen, Jake Bringham, Rusin, Yoanner Negrin, Rosscup
RP - Rafel Dolis, Jaye Chapman, Jonathan Mota, Scott Weismann, Dustin harrington, Joseph Zeller, Frank Batista, Alberto Cabrera, Brian Schlitter, Marcus Hatley, Tony Zych, Kevin Rhoderick, Casey Weather, Nate Samson, Dan Berlind


Yeah those teams were THAT bad. The depth was absolute shit and getting players at those levels are typically failed players for other teams unless you sell off major players.

 

[chibears55]

They are building things at the major league level just not in the way people want. As I said before, the lack of talent from 2002-2010 left their upper minors pretty devoid of players. People obviously made snide comments when trades like Feldman for Arrieta and Strop happened because they saw a failed played. But the thing they were missing is the cubs had to not only build their young minors but also had to build a group of players they should have had from those 2002-2010 drafts that eventually would have elevated to the MLB level. That's why you have seen a lot of "lightning in a bottle" hopes.

Seriously, look at the 2012 Iowa cubs.
C - Steve Clevenger, Anthony Recker, Juan Apodaca, Castillo(176 ABs), Blake Lalli, Brian Esposito
1B - Rizzo(257 ABs), Greg Rohan, Blake Lalli
2B - Gioskar Amaya, Adrian cardenas, Nate Samson, Alfredo Amezaga, Diory Hernandez
SS - Valbuena(211 ABs), Amezaga, Mat Tolbert
3B - Vitters, Greg Rohan, Diory Hernandez
OF - Jim Adduci, Ty Wright, Edgar Gonzalez, Nate Samson, Tony Campana, Jeff Frazier, Dave Sappelt, Brett Jackson, Jonathan Mota, Blake Dewitt

SP - Rusin, Rodrigo Lopez, Brooks Raley, Frankie De La Cruz, Chris Volstad, Casey Coleman, Jay Jackson, Randy Wells, Ryan Rowland-Smith, Wood, Tyrelle Harris, Yoanner Negrin, Horacio Ramirez, Seth Mcclung, Esmailin Caridada
RP - Alfredo Amezaga, Marmol, Jonathan Mota, Ryan Searle, Jario Asencio, Rafael Dolis, Michael Bowden, Scott Maine, Blake Parker, Jeff Beliveau, Manuel Corpas, Alberto Cabrera, Miguel Socolovich, Frank Batista, Brian Esposito, Jaye Chapman, Mike Macdougal, Nate Robertso, Marcus Hatley, Juan Apodaca, Blake Lalli, Shane Lindsay, Dan Berlind

And let's not stop there. Here's the 2012 Smokies
C - Juan Apodaca, Michael Brenly, Luis Flores, Chad Noble
1B - Justin Bour
2B - Logan Watkins, Nate Samson, Dustin Harrington, Elliott Soto
SS - Junior Lake
3B - Jonathan Mota, Lake, Samson, Matthew Cerda, Greg Rohan, Dustin Harrington,
OF - Ty Wright, Jim Adduci, Jonathan Mota, Jae-Hoon Ha, Rubi Silva, Michael Burgress, Matt Szczur, Nelson Perez, Rebel Riding

SP - Dallas Beeler, Nick Struck, Dae-Eun Rhee, Eric Jokisch, Trey Mcnutt, Brooks Raley, Austin Kirk, Lendry Castilo, Tyrelle Haris, Jeffery Antigua, Ryan Searle, Casey Harmen, Jake Bringham, Rusin, Yoanner Negrin, Rosscup
RP - Rafel Dolis, Jaye Chapman, Jonathan Mota, Scott Weismann, Dustin harrington, Joseph Zeller, Frank Batista, Alberto Cabrera, Brian Schlitter, Marcus Hatley, Tony Zych, Kevin Rhoderick, Casey Weather, Nate Samson, Dan Berlind


Yeah those teams were THAT bad. The depth was absolute shit and getting players at those levels are typically failed players for other teams unless you sell off major players.

to add to that. . when you have a weak system you tend to hold onto vets too long, you cant trade for top talent, and you end up overpaying for FAs to fill a need.



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[FirstTimer]

Cool, so basically you made up a conclusion based on no facts. Great story.

So PetCo park factors aren't facts?

 

[CSF77]

So PetCo park factors aren't facts?

They brought in the fences this year.

 

[nwfisch]

They are building things at the major league level just not in the way people want.

So far the Cubs have Rizzo, Castro, and maybe Castillo and Lake that will be around when this team starts competing.

Yep. That's a lot of building done at the major league level in three years.

3 of those guys were here when management arrived.

Until Bryant, Almora, et. al get to the MLB level, the MLB team isn't built. There is a difference between building a farm system and building the MLB ballclub.

 

[FirstTimer]

They brought in the fences this year.

So Rizzo would have become even more valuable?

 

[FirstTimer]

So far the Cubs have Rizzo, Castro, and maybe Castillo and Lake that will be around when this team starts competing.

Yep. That's a lot of building done at the major league level in three years.

3 of those guys were here when management arrived.

Until Bryant, Almora, et. al get to the MLB level, the MLB team isn't built. There is a difference between building a farm system and building the MLB ballclub.

You're better than this. You know that in baseball is myopic to look at building an MLB ball club for down the line and looking only at the MLB roster.

 

[Derkach77]

The Cubs really don't need Shark. If he really does want a crazy amount just let him walk. Trade him for a good pitching prospect. Whats awesome is how close we really are to a playoff team. The way the team is currently constructed is enough to be at .500 or just below it. That is near the middle of the league when it's all said and done. Now you add Bryant, Baez, Alcantara then a couple pitchers and all of a sudden you have a wild card playoff team at the very worst. Rotation would be Arrieta, an ace to replace Shark, Wood, Jackson, Hammel or someone else solid. Then you add Vizcaino and Edwards to the team and a nice lefty like Rusin. Possibilities are endless. Be happy Cubs fans. The time is near. 2015 is going to be one hell of a ride.

 

[FirstTimer]

The Cubs really don't need Shark. If he really does want a crazy amount just let him walk. Trade him for a good pitching prospect. Whats awesome is how close we really are to a playoff team. The way the team is currently constructed is enough to be at .500 or just below it. That is near the middle of the league when it's all said and done. Now you add Bryant, Baez, Alcantara then a couple pitchers and all of a sudden you have a wild card playoff team at the very worst. Rotation would be Arrieta, an ace to replace Shark, Wood, Jackson, Hammel or someone else solid. Then you add Vizcaino and Edwards to the team and a nice lefty like Rusin. Possibilities are endless. Be happy Cubs fans. The time is near. 2015 is going to be one hell of a ride.

2015 will be the "These kids can play" Year.

2016 is when you'll see the Cubs be a contender in the NL Central/WC race.

 

[Derkach77]

2015 will be the "These kids can play" Year.

2016 is when you'll see the Cubs be a contender in the NL Central/WC race.

Idk man. The "kids" are going to be producing better then those they are replacing at the MLB level. That can only mean a better team. Plus the Cubs need the mentality to win. They aren't interested in that entirely right now. Wanting to win goes a long way.

 

[nwfisch]

You're better than this. You know that in baseball is myopic to look at building an MLB ball club for down the line and looking only at the MLB roster.

I guess I'm one of those people that while the farm system is much better than it was 3 years ago, and it is imperative to building a successful MLB club I won't really recognize or give credit to having "x" top 100 prospects etc. :shrug:

At the end of the day, I can only hope that one of the top farm systems in baseball can help the Cubs to "sustained success."

 

[FirstTimer]

Idk man..

I do.

You're overrating this Cubs team.