Jim Hendry Bust or Great GM?

[Uman85]

Hey.

Sent from my Cadillac Deville on Highway 20 using Tapatalk

Cadillac, huh? Big pimpin'.

 

[The Bandit]

Just read this entire thread... headache

sent from 96 Chevy Corsica on I 81 using Tapatalk

 

[dabynsky]

I learned that when judging a team's overall performance, the LEAST relevant statistic is "wins". I guess its like those people that say a pitcher's win total is overrated. A team's win total is overrated, and is superfluous to real success.

Well I picked this quote to try to tackle the discussion about the better Cubs teams of the Hendry era. The argument seems to be that the 2003 team was the best suited for the postseason and therefore the best team of the Hendry era. I found the quote interesting since you using the statistic of wins that was the third most successful team of the Hendry era. Part of the argument seems to hinge on the fact that the Cubs were 5 outs away from the World Series. That is certainly the closest the Cubs have been to the World Series in any of our lifetimes, unless any poster here was born prior to 1945. I don't think it is unfair to point out that the 2003 Cubs team was extremely lucky to even make the postseason with the fourth best record in the NL, a Cardinals team that only won 85 games that season after winning over 90 games the previous 3 seasons and over a 100 the following two seasons, and an Astros team with 87 wins that underperformed its pythagorean record by 7 games (thanks Jimy Williams). The difference between our evaluation of the 03 Cubs and the 04 Cubs seems to have a lot to do with the performance of the Astros and Cards those years.

 

[dabynsky]

The Cubs farm system is an apt methaphor for Jim Hendry's tenure as the GM. He was promoted to assistant GM at the end of 2001. At the time the Cubs farm sysem was ranked a top 5 system and would be ranked that way until 2003. Jim Hendry deserves a large amount of credit for those rankings since prior to being the assistant GM he was the scouting director.

The man that really hurt the farm system was the guy that took over as the scouting director after Jim Hendry in John Stockstill. Now I've read different start dates for when Stockstill was responsible for the draft from 1999-2001. In 2001, the Cubs "lucked" out in being able to draft Mark Prior second overall, and the following season saw the Cubs peak system ranking. Stockstill's draft following this high point were beyond abysmal. His top draft picks the following years included gems Bobby Brownlie, Luke Hagerty, Ryan Harvey, Grant Johnson, and Mark Pawlek. The Cubs for four seasons basically got nothing out of its top draft picks, and as a result you saw the system drop in rankings every year following that peak in 2002. The effects of those really poor drafts in 2004 and 2005 weren't seen in the results until 2007-08 when those guys should have been making their way to the upper levels of the minors.

Now of course it is far too simple of answer to lay the blame for the fall of the Cubs farm system on one man. Clearly the Cubs did a poor job in develop talent for years. We just this season got a peak at how behind other organizations were in the use of video technology, and the fact the Cubs lacked a top to bottom approach to teaching the game to players. All of these things contributed to the failing system along with the poor drafting.

The Cubs approach of signing free agents to cover up their mistakes developing talent starting in the middle 2000s only compounded these issues. The Cubs didn't have a first round draft pick in 2004, they didn't have a pick between the 1st and 5th round in 2006 or a second rounder in 2007 due to signing free agents. The other factor is that while the Cubs beginning significantly upping the major league payroll the Cubs really didn't spend in amateur acquisition. Other top farm systems began to spend heavily on draft picks and international free agents, but the Tribune was more interested in spending money that made the Cubs appear more attractive at time of sale instead of the long term health of the organization.

Another interesting event that doesn't get a lot of talk is the loss of Derrek Lee's dad, Leon Lee from the organization. Leon Lee was a scout for the Cubs in the Pacific Rim in the late 90s that left the Cubs organization after 2002. The Cubs farm rankings early on were boosted by Lee signings Hee Seop Choi and Jae Kyuk Ryu. The Cubs really pulled back on Pacific Rim scouting after Lee left until 2007 with the hiring of Steve Wilson as their first full time Pacific Rim scout. Following Steve Wilson's hiring the pipeline from the Pacific Rim reopened with gusy like Dae Eun Rhee and Jae Hoon Ha as part of the Cubs farm system.

So the failing of the Cubs farm system in the past was due to a lot of factors (bad drafting by Stockstill, loss of draft picks due to short term free agent signings, pulling out of the Pacific Rim market, a few trades (Garza, Pierre, Clement too an extent), and lack of investment in the minors).

 

[FirstTimer]

The Cubs farm rankings early on were boosted by Lee signings Hee Seop Choi and Jae Kyuk Ryu. The Cubs really pulled back on Pacific Rim scouting after Lee left until 2007 with the hiring of Steve Wilson as their first full time Pacific Rim scout. Following Steve Wilson's hiring the pipeline from the Pacific Rim reopened with gusy like Dae Eun Rhee and Jae Hoon Ha as part of the Cubs farm system.

Does that really matter at all? Ryu sucked. Choi ended up sucking after a bruef flash of not sucking. Rhee will likely never see the majors. Ha is looking more and mor elike a 4th OF'er peak. I think saying the loss of Leon Lee was a huge event is rather odd since no one you named really ever amounted to anything at the MLB level.

 

[Rice Cube]

Does that really matter at all? Ryu sucked. Choi ended up sucking after a bruef flash of not sucking. Rhee will likely never see the majors. Ha is looking more and mor elike a 4th OF'er peak. I think saying the loss of Leon Lee was a huge event is rather odd since no one you named really ever amounted to anything at the MLB level.

Since baseball player development is sort of a numbers game, you still want to branch out to as many markets and exploit whatever inefficiencies you find. I actually think trying to scout the Asian territories is a bit of a waste of time though, they should invest more in Latin America which they are now. But every now and then you find some gold. So you do need to invest SOMETHING in each area. It's kind of like how most teams will send tons of scouts to California, Florida and Texas but they only send one or two scouts to rural Montana.

 

[waldo7239117]

Hendry was hit or miss... He was not a bust by any measure, though.

 

[FirstTimer]

Since baseball player development is sort of a numbers game, you still want to branch out to as many markets and exploit whatever inefficiencies you find. I actually think trying to scout the Asian territories is a bit of a waste of time though, they should invest more in Latin America which they are now. But every now and then you find some gold. So you do need to invest SOMETHING in each area. It's kind of like how most teams will send tons of scouts to California, Florida and Texas but they only send one or two scouts to rural Montana.

I think the only lasting impact Leon Lee had on the Cubs is that one of his top signings eliminated one of the ospreys in the Daytona Cubs organization.

Jim Hendry was hamstrung in developing the Cubs farm system because he lost the services of Leon Lee. Got it.

Thats like saying Bob Babich was hamstrung in running the Bears defense because Dusty Dvorcak retired.

To add to this: The Cubs looking to increase scouting in the Pacific Rim was kind a stupid fucking move anyways seeing as they were looking the wrong direction. The best talent is in Latin America, not the Pacific Rim. The Cubs scouting heavily in the Pacific Rim was a non-starter to begin with and was inherently putting them behind the other teams looking into Latin America right away.

 

[Rice Cube]

To add to this: The Cubs looking to increase scouting in the Pacific Rim was kind a stupid fucking move anyways seeing as they were looking the wrong direction. The best talent is in Latin America, not the Pacific Rim. The Cubs scouting heavily in the Pacific Rim was a non-starter to begin with and was inherently putting them behind the other teams looking into Latin America right away.

I think most people are in agreement about that. The Cubs might have been trying to exploit an inefficiency but Asian players just aren't as good as Latin Americans. And the ones that are that good (Ichiro, Yu Darvish) everyone knows about anyway. Which is why I think it's better to just send one or two guys to Japan, Korea and Taiwan and then have everyone else stay in the Western Hemisphere.

 

[dabynsky]

Does that really matter at all? Ryu sucked. Choi ended up sucking after a bruef flash of not sucking. Rhee will likely never see the majors. Ha is looking more and mor elike a 4th OF'er peak. I think saying the loss of Leon Lee was a huge event is rather odd since no one you named really ever amounted to anything at the MLB level.

Well I said it was an interesting event and there is a reason it was includ3ed at the end about why the Cubs farm system rankings fell. And since my post was about the rankings I included two highly high rated prospects in the Cubs system that boosted its rankings in the early 2000s (choi was a top 25 prospect). You are correct that neither Ryu or Choi made an impact as players but since Choi wasthe centerpiece in acquiring Lee's son it isn't like there was no positive effect on the Cubs major roster due to those two signings.

 

[FirstTimer]

Well I said it was an interesting event and there is a reason it was includ3ed at the end about why the Cubs farm system rankings fell. And since my post was about the rankings I included two highly high rated prospects in the Cubs system that boosted its rankings in the early 2000s (choi was a top 25 prospect). You are correct that neither Ryu or Choi made an impact as players but since Choi wasthe centerpiece in acquiring Lee's son it isn't like there was no positive effect on the Cubs major roster due to those two signings.

There was a positive impact as a result of one of the signings. Not both.

Then again if the Cubs were scouting Latin America maybe they don't need to go after D Lee. Who knows, but saying losing Leon Lee hurt Hendry is kinda an odd point because having Leon Lee in the PR scouting as a focus of the organization IMO was more of an issue than NOT having him.

 

[dabynsky]

I feel honored that you chose my quote, but you screwed up the context. It would have been nice had you actually used one of my quotes that actually argued the issue at hand, but this IS CCS.

I NEVER used the statistic of "wins" in reference to the 2003 Cubs. Since I never did that, I don't know how to respond to your post, other than to say you probably need to re-read this thread.

Part of the argument does hinge on the fact that the Cubs were successful in the postseason. I don't quite understand how the Cubs were "extremely lucky" to make the postseason. They won their division and had winning records against the other top teams in the MLB.

Anyway, my point was that the 2003 Cubs were the team best setup for postseason success. If you are going to try to refute that with pythagorean crap and ignore what actually happened on the field, then I guess you can claim "Cubs Poster of the Month" honors from Poodski.

The point was that the Cubs made the 2003 postseason due as much as their own performance as the unexpected, which I termed lucky, down performance of two consistent powers in the Central. The 04 did not have similar luck. Note however the fact that I didn't say that means the 04 team was better equipped for the postseason or had more elite pitching. I will however respectful decline the title of cubs poster of the month since I think you earned that with your extensive knowledge of the number of teams in major league baseball.

 

[dabynsky]

There was a positive impact as a result of one of the signings. Not both.

Then again if the Cubs were scouting Latin America maybe they don't need to go after D Lee. Who knows, but saying losing Leon Lee hurt Hendry is kinda an odd point because having Leon Lee in the PR scouting as a focus of the organization IMO was more of an issue than NOT having him.

I don't get the connection between scouting Asia and Latin America. They are two seperate entities with Oneri Fleita largely in charge of Latin America scouting. The Cubs never pulled out of Latin America as evidenced by signing guys like Felix Pie., Starlin Castro, Junior Lake, etc. 5he Cubs until recently haven't been big spenders in either market which is a point I eluded to in the first post. The Asia market has bore recent fruit for the Cubs in terms of Hak-ju Lee who is also a top 50 prospect and a key part of the trade for Matt Garza. So in very limited amounts of scouting the Cubs netted two top 50 prospects that turned into pieces on the big league roster.

 

[Rice Cube]

I thought we'd already established that the 2004 Cubs were broken.

 

[FirstTimer]

I don't get the connection between scouting Asia and Latin America.

Trust me.

I know.

They are two seperate entities with Oneri Fleita largely in charge of Latin America scouting. The Cubs never pulled out of Latin America as evidenced by signing guys like Felix Pie., Starlin Castro, Junior Lake, etc. The Cubs until recently haven't been big spenders in either market which is a point I eluded to in the first post. The Asia market has bore recent fruit for the Cubs in terms of Hak-ju Lee who is also a top 50 prospect and a key part of the trade for Matt Garza. So in very limited amounts of scouting the Cubs netted two top 50 prospects that turned into pieces on the big league roster.

But it wasn't "limited" you can't in one breath pain the loss of Leon Lee as a pretty "interesting factor" for Hendry then say the scouting was limited there. The Cubs were spending way too much time and money in the PR. Maybe if Leon Lee was in LA rather than in the PR the Cubs pull even more spects out of better baseball grounds. The Cubs PR scouting seems like they were doing it trying to be clever...more than it actually ending up being very functional.

 

[Rice Cube]

I think you have to invest something in scouting areas that are not as saturated, but most efforts should be focused in the Americas. That's where all the talent is focused.

So it's good to have a scout or two in Asia, but they should have 50 times that over on this side of the planet.

 

[FirstTimer]

I think you have to invest something in scouting areas that are not as saturated, but most efforts should be focused in the Americas. That's where all the talent is focused.

So it's good to have a scout or two in Asia, but they should have 50 times that over on this side of the planet.

Which I think is part of the problem.

If Leon Lee was significant enough to be mentioned as an "interesting" point for the Hendry era...well then..that's an issue.

 

[dabynsky]

Trust me.

I know.

Though you still have yet to show how the Cubs scouting in Asia prevented or limited their scouting in Latin America.

But it wasn't "limited" you can't in one breath pain the loss of Leon Lee as a pretty "interesting factor" for Hendry then say the scouting was limited there. The Cubs were spending way too much time and money in the PR. Maybe if Leon Lee was in LA rather than in the PR the Cubs pull even more spects out of better baseball grounds. The Cubs PR scouting seems like they were doing it trying to be clever...more than it actually ending up being very functional.

The Cubs had Leon Lee as a part time scout for 4 seasons and the bonuses issued out there were never a significant amount of the amateur budget in a given year. The Cubs were basically out of the Asian market until they hired Steve Wilson in 2007 as the first full time Pacific Rim scout. The amount the Cubs spent on the Pacific Rim could have easily been made up by not making horrible bench signings like Neifi Perez's 2.5 million in 2005 for example. There is no limit on scouts or the amount spent on amateurs prior to July 2, 2012. As I've shown never have the Cubs ignored Latin America. They were signing players from Latin America prior to Lee in Asia (Carlos Zambrano, Juan Cruz, etc.), while Lee was in Asia (Felix Pie, etc.) and after (Starlin Castro, Junior Lake, Welington Castillo, etc.) Scouting in the Pacific Rim does not and did not affect the Cubs ability to scout in the Americas. The loss of that scouting was one of many factors that I listed for the decline of the farm system. I guess I should be happy that apparently everything else meets your approval since that seems to be the only point you wish to discuss.

 

[dabynsky]

I think you have to invest something in scouting areas that are not as saturated, but most efforts should be focused in the Americas. That's where all the talent is focused.

So it's good to have a scout or two in Asia, but they should have 50 times that over on this side of the planet.

And that is what the Cubs were doing with a part time scout in Leon Lee in the late 90s and early 2000s. Then they had basically no scouting in Asia for five years and then they hired Steve Wilson as their only full time scout in Asia. The Cubs have had a strong presence in Latin America for a long time under Oneri Fleita and others.

 

[FirstTimer]

Though you still have yet to show how the Cubs scouting in Asia prevented or limited their scouting in Latin America.

Jesus Christ, yes I have.

If Leon Lee was important enough to be mentioned for the Hendry fail area and the entire premise is the Cubs were run "cheaply" by the Trib then I would say having an important scout in the PR would take away resources for the LA countires don't you?

The Cubs had Leon Lee as a part time scout for 4 seasons and the bonuses issued out there were never a significant amount of the amateur budget in a given year. The Cubs were basically out of the Asian market until they hired Steve Wilson in 2007 as the first full time Pacific Rim scout.

And no one cared or missed the prospects.

The PR is non-consequential. Hence why GM's with a brain or building baseball academies in the DR, not in South Korea.

As I've shown never have the Cubs ignored Latin America.

I never said they ignored Latin America so your point was...well pointless.

I guess I should be happy that apparently everything else meets your approval since that seems to be the only point you wish to discuss.

Not really. I just have dumber people to troll over in the Bulls forum.