Jim Hendry Bust or Great GM?

[FirstTimer]

This has gone beyond retardation. Its like trying to discuss baseball with a 2nd grader. Disprove this, disprove that. I don't dispute the facts that you mention, I dispute the conclusions you are drawing from them. Thats why I had previously asked you if you had ever held a conversation, because the way you are posting makes no sense.

Rory: The 2003 Cubs were set up for postseason success moreso than the 2004 Cubs, because they had two elite starters and acquired Kenny Lofton at the end of the year.

dabynsky: The 2004 Cubs won more regular season games than the 2003 Cubs.

Rory: That wasn't my point.

dabynsky: Disprove my statement that the 2004 Cubs won more regular season games than the 2003 Cubs.

Rory: X 1 million

This.

x infinity +1

 

[Rice Cube]

I am amazed (well, "amazed" in the CCS sense, which means not really amazed...more like "stupefied") that this is the "assertion" that you are harping on, and not something more along the lines of...



Jae Kuk Ryu's lifetime Cubs statistics:

0-1, 15 IP, 8.40 ERA, 7 HR ALLOWED, 1 Osprey eliminated = ASSET

I agree that the amount of talent coming from Asia is miniscule compared to what would have come out of the Americas. I'm "harping" on the "assertion" because someone said it and I wanted it clarified as either...

A- something that is true but was not substantiated (link would be nice, let's see Paul Sullivan or Phil Rogers say ZOMFG LEON LEE FTW)

B- something that is categorically untrue and used inappropriately to discredit another poster

So an elaboration of that point would be appreciated. I don't think dabynsky ever said it and if it was implied, then my bad. But the only time I saw Leon Lee being referred to as "the best Cubs scout EVAR" was in FirstTimer's post and in Rory's Cliffs notes. I don't think that's too much to ask.

 

[Rice Cube]

Rory: The 2003 Cubs were set up for postseason success moreso than the 2004 Cubs, because they had two elite starters and acquired Kenny Lofton at the end of the year.

dabynsky: The 2004 Cubs won more regular season games than the 2003 Cubs.

Rory: That wasn't my point.

dabynsky: Disprove my statement that the 2004 Cubs won more regular season games than the 2003 Cubs.

Rory: X 1 million

Yeah, that can't be disputed, and it is true that one team made the playoffs while the other did not. It is also true that the 2004 Cubs were broken despite having some great offensive output, but luck is one of those subjective things that you can't really quantify. You are therefore left with the facts (2003 almost got there, 2004 didn't even get to play) and the "what if" is purely philosophical.

 

[Rice Cube]

It was implied, because if losing the services of a part time Pacific Rim scout is one of the main reasons for Jim Hendry's downfall, then that part time scout must have been the best in the Cubs organization at that time.

Also, I don't remember saying that Leon Lee was the best Cubs scout ever, but I don't deny the accuracy of that statement. The guy brought in some top talent, and he only worked part-time.

It reminds me of my office...you put 3 people making $100,000+ on a project, and if something gets messed up they all blame the temp making $9.75/hr.

Fair enough. I think in dabynsky's post he only listed that as one of several points he was trying to make, but didn't say that nobody was scouting Latin America in the meantime. I can see how one could construe his statements the way you guys did.

They do need to focus more in the Americas but as I said, you have to have one or two guys bouncing around in Asia and other territories (Europe, Australia) as well. You never know if one of them will bump into Asian Albert Pujols :lol: But you're also more likely to find Latin American Albert Pujols v2.0 in Latin America.

 

[FirstTimer]

I think in dabynsky's post he only listed that as one of several points he was trying to make

Which is the issue. If Lee was "important" enough to mention in that context then he can't turn around 3 posts later and try to diminish Lee by labeling him part time.

but didn't say that nobody was scouting Latin America in the meantime.

OMG...............

Yeah, we know.

No one ever said that. Ever. Why is this still coming up?

I can see how one could construe his statements the way you guys did.

If your above statement is an attempt to see how we "construed" a comment then you aren't seeing it the way we did.

 

[Rice Cube]

Yeah, we know.

No one ever said that. Ever. Why is this still coming up?

Because you and Rory both assumed that because there was some effort in Asia that dabynsky was not emphasizing that the Cubs were still scouting there? I don't know, why'd you guys start going on that point?

If your above statement is an attempt to see how we "construed" a comment then you aren't seeing it the way we did.

I'm saying that you guys had a point but picked a certain statement to twist the meaning of. That's all.

I had a post a while back trying to summarize the arguments but I guess it was ignored. Oh well.

 

[FirstTimer]

Because you and Rory both assumed that

No we did not.

Ever.

Jesus.

 

[nwfisch]

No we did not.

Ever.

Jesus.

 

[Rice Cube]

That's pretty clear to me. Thanks for the post.

Do you guys want to keep this going or should I close the thread now?

 

[FirstTimer]

Why close the thread? Its the best thing going on CCS right now.

I don't know Rory. I think it's only a minor part time thing going on here.

 

[Rice Cube]

I re-read through babynsky's postings, and I can now kind of understand what he is trying to say. He just unsurprisingly fails to see the bigger issue, which is why he comically repeats himself after awhile. I am not an expert on Cubs scouting history, and I'm just going off of what babynsky has told me...but if one of the most important parts of your scouting operation is some part-time guy in the Pacific Rim, shouldn't that in itself be a clear indication that something is wrong?

Its like a few years ago when punter Brad Maynard was the Bears team MVP...would it make sense to give props to Jerry Angelo for making such a great signing, or is it a sign of the bigger problem that your punter is your best player?

I think there was a lot wrong with the Cubs that Hendry tried to fix but either didn't or couldn't (due to ownership issues). The fact that the farm system got progressively worse and that the Cubs continued to bleed draft picks every time they picked up a new expensive free agent didn't help matters. Also the fact that they had one of the least analytical front offices in MLB meant they couldn't properly evaluate talent to maximize the picks they did have.

I'm too lazy to read back but I think that's something we all agreed on.

 

[MRubio52]

I think we can all agree that Hendry's tenure would best serve the Cubs fanbase if it was reduced to a footnote.

 

[nwfisch]

 

[KBisBack!]

Above average and he provided the best run of baseball the team had seen in about a century.

 

[KBisBack!]

That wasn't an option. Its either "bust" or "great".

Then neither. There is plenty of room between the two options it is pretty ignorant to limit it to just two.

 

[KBisBack!]

I didn't create the thread.

Then don't cry like a teenage girl left out of the Twilight marathon sleepover that someone choose an option other than the two original listed.

 

[brett05]

Actually those options were never listed. It was a thread title. Those two are not the same.

 

[patg006]

Then neither. There is plenty of room between the two options it is pretty ignorant to limit it to just two.

Exactly. I'm not calling him a saint or a savior, but he made some phenomenal moves on the good and bad sides of the spectrum. At the time, Signing Milton Bradley after the year he had prior in Texas was brilliant. .321 hitter from both sides of the plate who was there to aid a predominantly right handed line up. It was a gamble Jim lost, shipping Saint DeRosa for Milton.

Gambling away Augie Ojeda and Bobby hill was brilliant.

His moves over and over again being credited or discredited is pointless; weve beaten that dead horse. Hendry got this team damn close some years, but like football--in the playoffs its all about who's healthy and hot. If we would have drawn the mets round 1 instead of the Dodgers; we could be talking a whole nother ballgame.

One thing that disgusts me with the theo fappers is how current players Wellington Castillo, Castro, Shark, Barney, Russell, Marshall are/were all successful farm products but not credited to Jim Hendry. Hendry got these guys, not theo. Baez too.

At this point it doesnt really matter, Hendry didnt win. But he got as close as he could with this team. I'd call it a success in some aspects and failures in others. You cant call him either great or bust. Thats Special person......there is far too much information usable to put him in the middle.

 

[SilenceS]

At the time, Bradley was a headcase and a DH who was terrible in the field. At the time, teams couldn't get rid of Bradley fast enough. Many questioned the signing. Hendry thought Bradley could play RF -- he couldn't.

Ironically, the need for Bradley was brought about by another terrible Hendry signing...Kosuke Fukudome for $48M/4yr...a guy who no one else projected MLB stardom for. Bradley's salary was $30M/3yr, so Hendry essentially tied up $78M over the next 4 years for 2 subpar RFs. Great work.



But the Cubs didn't come close to beating the Dodgers. They were swept by a 20-6 differential. Mets didn't make the postseason.

Cubs werent the highest bidder for Fukudome. He chose them over a team that bid higher. Also, the reason Bradley was signed because Cubs fans were screaming for a left handed bat and him and Ibanez was the best choice. I can use revisionist history when I want as well.

 

[FirstTimer]

At the time, Bradley was a headcase and a DH who was terrible in the field. At the time, teams couldn't get rid of Bradley fast enough. Many questioned the signing. Hendry thought Bradley could play RF -- he couldn't.

Ironically, Bradley succeeded another terrible Hendry signing...Kosuke Fukudome for $48M/4yr...a guy who no one else projected MLB stardom for. Bradley's salary was $30M/3yr, so Hendry essentially tied up $78M over the next 4 years for 2 subpar RFs. Great work.



But the Cubs didn't come close to beating the Dodgers. They were swept by a 20-6 differential. Mets didn't make the postseason.

Shoulda signed Dunn instead of Bradley.