Jordan Howard with three touchdowns against Green Bay

[remydat]

I don’t know why you’re vortexing out of control about history. Nobody ever brought up history. I am talking about right now. It’s also already been establish we are not in fact talking about successful teams we are talking about the BEST teams. Don’t try to change a discussion you did not start.

The Pats are a successful team right now and have Michel.

The Ravens are a successful team right now and have Ingram

The Rams are a successful team right now and have Brown.

So again you point is still asinine.

 

[WestCoastBearsFan]

The Pats are a successful team right now and have Michel.

The Ravens are a successful team right now and have Ingram

The Rams are a successful team right now and have Brown.

So again you point is still asinine.

BEST TEAMS DUMMY. Ravens are not one of the best teams in the NFL. Brown has 20 carries. He is a back up that comes in and takes snaps when Gurley gets tired. If you want that to be the basis of your argument vortex on.

 

[remydat]

The Patriots are the Patriots level success because they have the greatest football player in history and the greatest coach in history.

Which doesn't change the fact they have used traditional RBs like Dillion and Michel.

Also Michel averaged over 100 yards rushing in the playoffs and Brady was quite bad against the Rams in the SB. Anyone with a brain understands that Michel was a huge part of their winning last year once the playoffs started.

 

[remydat]

BEST TEAMS DUMMY. Ravens are not one of the best teams in the NFL. Brown has 20 carries. He is a back up that comes in and takes snaps when Gurley gets tired. If you want that to be the basis of your argument vortex on.

No you said successful.

DO YOU HAVE A LINK TO SOME OF “THE NFL’S MOST SUCCESSFUL TEAMS”. I WOULD SAY THE PATRIOTS, CHIEFS, SAINTS, AND RAMS ARE THE MOST SUCCESSFUL TEAMS IN THE NFL RIGHT NOW. NONE OF THEM RUN A FOXBALL OFFENSE THAT HOWARD CAN PRODUCE IN.

THANKS.

Being 2-1 with your only loss coming against the 3-0 Chiefs who may be the best team in football and while being the No 1 offense in the NFL is still successful.

And the point with Brown is that successful teams still have roles for more traditional backs. Just like the Eagles found a good role for a traditional back and outscored the Bears against the Pack.

You keep defending Nagy's decision as if the Bears are a successful offense. They succeed on D. Their offense this year has scored at John Fox levels outside of the Redskins so again your entire premise is dumb.

Good coaches find ways to fit their system around the players they have. Nagy has yet to show he can do this with RBs or the QB for that matter.

 

[WestCoastBearsFan]

No you said successful.



Being 2-1 with your only loss coming against the 3-0 Chiefs who may be the best team in football and while being the No 1 offense in the NFL is still successful.

And the point with Brown is that successful teams still have roles for more traditional backs. Just like the Eagles found a good role for a traditional back and outscored the Bears against the Eagles.

You keep defending Nagy's decision as if the Bears are a successful offense. They succeed on D. Their offense this year has scored at John Fox levels outside of the Redskins so again your entire premise is dumb.

LMFAO. I said MOST successful. Stop being a disingenuous straw man. I even fucking repeated the phrase “MOST SUCCESFUL” in the very same post you linked. You’re reaching and you know it.

 

[remydat]

LMFAO. I said MOST successful. Stop being a disingenuous straw man.

Ok how are you measuring this? I mean if you want to ignore the fact the Ravens have the No 1 offense and just look at records, the Bills use Frank Gore, Cowboys have Zeke, and Niners have Breida and Wilson. That is in addition to Michel with Pats and Brown with Rams.

I truly am confused why you want to ignore the no 1 scoring offense though in a discussion about offenses using RBs. Your logic makes no sense.

The reality is offenses can win any number of ways. There is no requirement for every RB to be a dual purpose threat and some of the most successful teams this year still have room for traditional RBs. The difference is good coaches use the talent they have while Nagy seems to value his scheme and gadgets over the players.

 

[WestCoastBearsFan]

Ok how are you measuring this? I mean if you want to ignore the fact the Ravens have the No 1 offense and just look at records, the Bills use Frank Gore, Cowboys have Zeke, and Niners have Breida and Wilson. That is in addition to Michel with Pats and Brown with Rams.

I truly am confused why you want to ignore the no 1 scoring offense though in a discussion about offenses using RBs. You logic makes no sense.

Jesus Christ remy try and keep up. I get everybody is allowed an off day but this is truly bad. I was responding to a post by HHM and he said “MOST SUCCESFUL TEAMS”. Nobody said “most successful offenses”. If you had an issue with the premise of this discussion being “MOST SUCCESSFUL TEAMS” maybe you shouldn’t have entered it.

 

[remydat]

Jesus Christ remy try and keep up. I get everybody is allowed an off day but this is truly bad. I was responding to a post by HHM and he said “MOST SUCCESFUL TEAMS”. Nobody said “most successful offenses”. If you had an issue with the premise of this discussion being “MOST SUCCESSFUL TEAMS” maybe you shouldn’t have entered it.

You can't be this stupid. I don't have a problem with the premise. I am saying most successful teams would include teams with good offenses given we are talking about the RB position. IT would be quite asinine to interpret most successful to be in reference to a team with a great D but a shitty offense.

 

[remydat]

Not to completely REKT your *** about this but "modern offense" is not a static thing. There is constant evolution and cyclical developments in most everything in this world and the NFL is no outlier.

If you follow closely enough I think you might see that there is a trending toward power O going on in some of the NFL's most successful teams, and guys like Jordan Howard can literally style all over your "modern offense" when the right mix of player personnel is committed to his style of play.

Thanks.

Not sure how you can read the above and think HeHateMe is not talking about teams like the Ravens with the No 1 offense.

Some of the NFL's most successful teams would include the Ravens dummy as he references Jordan Howard of the Eagles and the Ravens have been more successful thus far than the Eagles.

But why don't you ask HHM if he was excluding the Ravens since he mentioned it and likely had some times in mind. You however can't claim to know who HHM was talking about.

 

[napo55]

Very clear that the a Bears made a mistake trading Howard and bringing in Davis. And having to rely on rookie Montgomery to carry the load is a huge gamble. Maybe he will explode, but don't count on it.

 

[94c4lt1]

Howard's yards before contact was 1.8 last year and after contact 2.0.

Monty's current yards before contact is 2.6 and after contact 1.4.

In short people see what they want to see.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HowaJo00.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MontDa01.htm

PFR has an extra 1 yard per rush (after contact) compared to PFF stats on Howard:

https://sports.yahoo.com/pro-football-focus-jordan-howard-203029839.html

 

[94c4lt1]

Howard's yards before contact was 1.8 last year and after contact 2.0.

Monty's current yards before contact is 2.6 and after contact 1.4.

In short people see what they want to see.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HowaJo00.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MontDa01.htm

PFR has an extra 1 yard per rush compared to PFF stats on Howard:

https://sports.yahoo.com/pro-football-focus-jordan-howard-203029839.html

 

[Pegger]

So basically he sucks at things that a modern offense requires from its running backs. Good to know. I guess congratulations to Howard for being able to not fumble and being a decent blocker?

You are aware that the Eagles, like the Bears, run a 'modern' offense? From a schematic level they are material differences, but it's not like my team is running the wishbone out there.

Okay, let me try to use a different player as an example. Desean Jackson is a smaller, fast WR who is amazing at adjusting to the ball when it's in the air. These 'areas of strength' have allowed him to have over 70 plays of 40+ yards.

He might be one of the best 'deep threat' WRs of all time.

Desean Jackson sucks at slants, deep in routes and blocking. It's not only that he's physically not equipped to do it, but he has no desire to do it. Call it a business decision.

Question - If you had an offense that required the outside WRs to run slants, deep in routes and block how valuable is he to you? Conversely, if you had an offense that asked your WR to take the top off a defense and draw a double team how valuable is he?

Some you Bears fans look at Jordan Howard like a jaded ex where the reason things didn't work out is entirely someone else's fault. Your 'relationship' with Jordan Howard first worked out really well, then as things changed he wasn't a fit. No biggie. The only constant in life is change, so just roll with the punches.

 

[WestCoastBearsFan]

Not sure how you can read the above and think HeHateMe is not talking about teams like the Ravens with the No 1 offense.

Some of the NFL's most successful teams would include the Ravens dummy as he references Jordan Howard of the Eagles and the Ravens have been more successful thus far than the Eagles.

But why don't you ask HHM if he was excluding the Ravens since he mentioned it and likely had some times in mind. You however can't claim to know who HHM was talking about.

Dummy I named the teams I thought, since he failed to name them, and he did not counter with any so presumably the list I came up with was fine. But by all means continue to vortex.

 

[Pegger]

His YAC went down considerably over the last three years with the Bears, going from 2.2 ('16)-> 1.5 -> 1.0 ('18). He's terrible at breaking tackles (42nd ranked RB in broken tackles in 2018), but can "fall forward" when in a grasp (to the tune of an extra yard, per '18). I wouldn't necessarily call that "excelling," but he's serviceable. Not a back you'd want to pay big $ for, however.

I wish JHow luck, seeing as he was a Bear I rooted for, but I don't regret that we moved on from him one bit.

RE: the stats you provided - As long as he's had the same blocking schemes, talent along the OL and played against the same defensive schemes/players, I guess it's a logical conclusion that Jordan has regressed...

RE: pay him big money - The market is not a good judge of talent or even scheme fit, so it's a poor measure. He's still on his rookie contract, so it's all about the value a team can extract for that relative cap space spent.

RE: JHow luck, good move to move on - I 100% agree. He was a non fit in the Bears scheme. No one is to blame for him not fitting. Nagy's job is to win games the best way he knows how and that doesn't include a player with Howard's weaknesses. Sometimes walking away is just the best for all parties.

 

[WestCoastBearsFan]

You are aware that the Eagles, like the Bears, run a 'modern' offense? From a schematic level they are material differences, but it's not like my team is running the wishbone out there.

Okay, let me try to use a different player as an example. Desean Jackson is a smaller, fast WR who is amazing at adjusting to the ball when it's in the air. These 'areas of strength' have allowed him to have over 70 plays of 40+ yards.

He might be one of the best 'deep threat' WRs of all time.

Desean Jackson sucks at slants, deep in routes and blocking. It's not only that he's physically not equipped to do it, but he has no desire to do it. Call it a business decision.

Question - If you had an offense that required the outside WRs to run slants, deep in routes and block how valuable is he to you? Conversely, if you had an offense that asked your WR to take the top off a defense and draw a double team how valuable is he?

Some you Bears fans look at Jordan Howard like a jaded ex where the reason things didn't work out is entirely someone else's fault. Your 'relationship' with Jordan Howard first worked out really well, then as things changed he wasn't a fit. No biggie. The only constant in life is change, so just roll with the punches.

I am. He was not good as a Chicago Bear at the end of his tenure and quite honestly sucked, and was therefore replaced. the skills he does bring to the table are skills that mirror more of a back up "role player" change of pace back more than a feature back.

 

[Pegger]

The simple fact is Nagy doesn't appear to know what the fuck he is doing with RBs. Dress it up however you want but there is nothing thus far that suggests he has a grasp on how to properly use them. He misused Howard last year and thus far he has pretty much misused Cohen, Davis and Monty to varying degrees.

I just posted in a different thread, but Nagy was brought in to win football games. He's doing that the best way he knows how and often that asks certain positions to do certain things. If we can agree on that then based on last season it's clear that Howard's limitations just made him a non-fit. Does that mean Nagy should adjust what he feels is right? No. Does that mean Howard is a terrible football player across the board? No. It's just a non-fit.

 

[Pegger]

I am. He was not good as a Chicago Bear at the end of his tenure and quite honestly sucked, and was therefore replaced. the skills he does bring to the table are skills that mirror more of a back up "role player" change of pace back more than a feature back.

I think the NFL is actually getting very specialized. There are players whom can succeed in all systems, but those guys are becoming less common.

Let's look at the model franchise being the Patriots. They have a bunch of WRs/RBs that either already failed or would fail elsewhere. Why do they perform well in NE? It's because they ask players to specialize in areas that cater to their strengths. They also go one step further in that their game plans cater to using certain specialized players in situations that optimize their chance of success.

It seems logical and something all teams should do, but it's actually extremely hard to do. Andy Reid, who has a QB that's looking like a god on earth is fairly hard headed in his approach. That hard headed nature looks great when it's working, but he is far from being a perfect play caller.

 

[HeHateMe]

Dummy I named the teams I thought, since he failed to name them, and he did not counter with any so presumably the list I came up with was fine. But by all means continue to vortex.

I dint mention RAVENS because I thought RAVENS was too obvious and dint want to presume you were a FOOTBALL R-TARD

Thanks.

 

[WestCoastBearsFan]

I dint mention RAVENS because I thought RAVENS was too obvious and dint want to presume you were a FOOTBALL R-TARD

Thanks.

ARE OTHER TEAMS LIKE THE PATRIOTS, RAMS, SAINTS, AND CHIEFS GOING TO BE RETCONNED ONTO THE LIST AS WELL??