Kevin Barkley vs Charles Durant thread formerly AtL

Scoot26

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Maybe not so much NFL, but even there you have teams in recent years that are always in the mix. NE always is. Plus single elimination in football can cause more surprises. In baseball, historically you saw a couple teams dominate and in recent years you even saw the Giants win every other year. I'm not a big baseball fan, I find it painfully boring and by the looks of the stadiums, so do the fans. European soccer typically only has a couple teams compete year to year, and they're not hurting for money or popularity either. NHL is fairly competitive but I bet they wished they had NBA money.

I just don't think this notion of competitiveness drives popularity or revenue.

You gotta think, there was no unrestricted free agency in the NBA until the late 80s. Didn't make the league less competitive, if anything it's been more competitive since then, and even if it hasn't, it never hurt the bottom line.


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The NFL does benefit from single game elimination.

The Patriots, Colts, Broncos, Packers are all teams that have gone to the playoffs just about every year in recent history. And the superstars of hte league are pretty much there every year. But you get parity because of that one game playoffs. But the NFL is pretty much if you have a superstar QB, you're going to the playoffs. Much like the NBA you are going deep in the playoffs if you have a superstar.

Baseball I feel is more so run by front office moves than have "superstars". Often the superstar gets vastly overpaid by some other team, then never sees success again minus a few times the Yankees are able to do it. Baseball hasn't seen a repeat champion since the 1998-2000 Yankees, while the NBA has done in multiple times since the Yankees did that. Baseball hasn't even seen a back-to-back repeat matchup in years, while the NBA has seen it happen 4 straight years now (Sa-Mia and GSW-Cle).

And for as much as the NBA gets flak on lack of parity, no era has as much of a lack of parity as the 1980's. That decade saw 5 total Finalist, 4 champions. The only team to not win a championship that was in the Finals was the Rockets who were major underdogs in 1981 and 1986. The Lakers, Sixers, Celtics dominated that decade the Pistons came in at the very end, replacing the Celtics. Its really one of the least competitive eras in NBA history, yet one of the most popular.
 

remydat

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That is just bullshit. Barkley was traded and is no way a hypocrite. He is not always right in what he has done or said but he is nothing but honest in his views. And he is 100% correct in his assessment of the bullshit going on in the NBA and they are killing the golden goose. Hell, they should probably cancel the regular season and go directly to the championship round. I even hear two numbnuts on a local radio station out here saying that how much fun it was going to be to see two teams roll over everyone in their conferences and be SUPER TEAMS. Well **** THIS. I suggest that fans not go to their local teams games. Just find something else to do. THe tickets are highly priced and you team doesn't have a chance to win so **** it. Teach these assholes a lesson.

Barkley demanded a trade Hawk and was talking about how great it would be playing with Hakeem and Drexler one month before the trade was final as I already provided in the link.

So he is full of shit. He lobbied for the trade so he could play with superstars. Also, to this idea of well Barkley wasn't in his prime. Barkley put up 23.2 PPG and 11.6 RPG the year before the trade. WTF does prime have to do with it when he was still one of the best players in the NBA? The dude put up better numbers than Green at 33 so who gives a **** about this concept of prime?

Clyde Drexler put up 19.3 PPG, 5.8 APG, 7.2 RPG 2.0 SPG and was still one of the best all round 2 guards in the NBA leading 2 guards in rebounds, 2nd in assists, and 8th in the NBA in steals.

Hakeem put up 26.9 PPG (2nd in NBA), 10.9 RPG, 2.9 BPG.

So this is amusing. Barkley joined a team of superstars who whether you call it their prime or not were still top players in the NBA. So what does age have to do with anything? He was chasing a championship and wanted to ride the coattails of other superstars. Great he waited a few more years to do so than Durant. So fucking what?
 

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The NFL does benefit from single game elimination.

The Patriots, Colts, Broncos, Packers are all teams that have gone to the playoffs just about every year in recent history. And the superstars of hte league are pretty much there every year. But you get parity because of that one game playoffs. But the NFL is pretty much if you have a superstar QB, you're going to the playoffs. Much like the NBA you are going deep in the playoffs if you have a superstar.

Baseball I feel is more so run by front office moves than have "superstars". Often the superstar gets vastly overpaid by some other team, then never sees success again minus a few times the Yankees are able to do it. Baseball hasn't seen a repeat champion since the 1998-2000 Yankees, while the NBA has done in multiple times since the Yankees did that. Baseball hasn't even seen a back-to-back repeat matchup in years, while the NBA has seen it happen 4 straight years now (Sa-Mia and GSW-Cle).

And for as much as the NBA gets flak on lack of parity, no era has as much of a lack of parity as the 1980's. That decade saw 5 total Finalist, 4 champions. The only team to not win a championship that was in the Finals was the Rockets who were major underdogs in 1981 and 1986. The Lakers, Sixers, Celtics dominated that decade the Pistons came in at the very end, replacing the Celtics. Its really one of the least competitive eras in NBA history, yet one of the most popular.

I don't think the NFL is a league of parity because of one game elimination. I think it's a league of parity because, regardless of what team you are or what city you play in, you have just as good of a chance as any other team to build a consistent winner. Probably the biggest reason for that is the hard cap. Every team has the same amount of money to spend. If you're a great player, you'd have to take a significant pay you if you wanted to help build a super team, like the Warriors in the NBA. Or you can go to an average team and sign a huge contract, and help make them a great team. Most players in the NFL choose the money.

In the NBA? You can have both as long as the owners are willing to pay. And a team like LA, BOS, DAL, NY, etc. can and are willing to pay big bucks to accumulate stars. That leaves teams like MIN, MEM, ORL, MIL, etc. unable to compete because they simply don't have the cash flow that other teams have. The only shot those teams have is to draft a HOF caliber player, and hope he doesn't leave. Even while they have them, again, it's difficult for them to exceed the cap too much, because they simply can't afford to may millions and millions of dollars in taxes. For example, the Hornets projected five-year profit was negative 16 million dollars. Why or how could a team like that afford to pay 20 million in taxes just to get a few great players? That's a huge risk. If they get injured or never really win anything, you just blew a lot of fuckin money. But the Lakers and other big market teams profit anywhere between 30-150 million a year.
 

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The NFL has parity because the 50th guy has a similar change to succeed as the 10th guy picked. In the NBA the talent selection is not nearly hit and miss. There are also a lot fewer real difference makers in the NBA. Maybe 3 at any one time. In the NFL there are dozens at anyone time.

The NBA is more of an individual game and the NFL is more of a team game.

There are many reasons. Anyone who thinks the NBA can get by with all the talent on 2-4 teams for 20 years and not start to cripple is crazy. The pain is down the line when fan bases dwindle and arenas 25 cities are empty. If this trend continues I suspect that the NBA will be in very poor shape 20 years from now.
 

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At no point in his chastising Durant did he claim his only objection was the timing. That is something you added to argue why he isn't a hypocrite.

Further, it is a matter of opinion whether you choose to consider that a significant enough distinction. We both know that Barkley went chasing after championships at some point in his career. So who is he to get upset that Durant chose to do so sooner in his career than he did? It's a stupid fucking distinction to make particularly when Durant gave OKC 9 years of his career because it's completely arbitrary.

If we assume that Barkley's view is as you said then all he did was set an arbitrary number for deciding that it's too soon for Durant to team up with superstars to chase a championship and lo and behold, that arbitrary number happens to ensure he is not included in the group he wants to chastise.

Since you're STILL intellectually bankrupt...

This is stupid.

I agree. Your entire point is stupid.

People that are hypocrites also lived their lives in reality so the fact we know this doesn't make Barkley any less a hypocrite.
Your entire basis for Barkley being a hypocrite is him criticizing Kevin Durant and Lebron James for doing something he himself did.

Barkley didn't do what James and Durant did based on the reality and context of the situations, therefore Barkley is not a hypocrite.


You can't claim Barkley is a hypocrite, calling into evidence what he did and using his past against him, then when the ACTUAL context of the history and situations are brought up claim that we can't make those distinctions because Barkley didn't.

YOU brought Barkley's past into the equation by making claims about/against him, as such his entire history and actual life is now admissible to evaluate and in this case rebuke those claims.

No one with a brain expects Barkley to give a 15 page address on the issue citing differences in his situation. We saw it happen, we have the internet, we have data and the actual experience. Normal minded people can evaluate this pretty easily.

You, for some reason, have the cognitive ability of a three year old and aren't able to.

So yes, I agree, this(you) are stupid.









That basically penalizes Durant because he entered the league as a teenager and is entirely self serving Bullshit by Barkley.
No. Here's the actual situation(s)..again:

Barkley was traded from a floundering Suns franchise to the Rockets at nearly 34 years old. He was joining Drexler and Hakeem who were both 34 as well and Houston was coming off a season where they didn't just set the NBA record for wins in a season.

Drexler retired a year later.
Olajuwon never started more than 50 games a year the rest of his career after 96-97 and was retired 5 years later.
Barkley retired 4 years later.

Barkley going to the Rockets is nothing like what has happened with James/Durant, unless you expect Durant, Curry, Thompson, and Green to all be retired in two to five seasons and the Warriors were a middling team in the West last year.

Barkley getting traded to the Rockets based on this offseason is most comparable to Wade coming to Chicago if ANY comparison is going to be made.

He didn't/should have had to make any distinction in his comments because people with a brain know the difference.

The other trade you bring up he went to the Suns, who had no other super star players, much less the reigning two time MVP, they hadn't made it past the 2nd round the previous two years..one year falling ou tin the 1st round...much less back to back NBA Finals appearances including a win, on top of all this the 76ers were a train wreck at the time. Barkley was asking for a trade to go to a team where he could be THE guy.

His comments going back years are about other established franchise guys in their prime, going to other teams to team up with other superstars to take a step back and chase rings.




You're easily the worst poster in this entire community.

Congrats.
 

FirstTimer

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Barkley, 33, has two years left on his contract,


I repeat:

The season before the trade Barkley was the 15th highest paid player in the NBA.

The season he was traded he was making the same as a guy like Karl Malone.

Again, reality bites you in the ass.
 

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The NFL has parity because the 50th guy has a similar change to succeed as the 10th guy picked. In the NBA the talent selection is not nearly hit and miss. There are also a lot fewer real difference makers in the NBA. Maybe 3 at any one time. In the NFL there are dozens at anyone time.

The NBA is more of an individual game and the NFL is more of a team game.

There are many reasons. Anyone who thinks the NBA can get by with all the talent on 2-4 teams for 20 years and not start to cripple is crazy. The pain is down the line when fan bases dwindle and arenas 25 cities are empty. If this trend continues I suspect that the NBA will be in very poor shape 20 years from now.

I agree with you 100%. Barkley was right when he said that this assembling superstar teams is killing the league in the long run. Putting asses in the seats is how NBA owners make their money and having just 2-4 teams with a chance of winning a championship is not going to put asses in the seats for the great percentage of teams. Imagine being a Philly fan. What the hell would motivate those guys going to watch a game?

The other thing is the ticket prices themselves. Who can afford them? At some point, probably this coming year, people will stop going to games. I think that Reinny understood this and was the reason that the Bulls signed Rondo and Wade.
 

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I remember wanting allen Crabbe in the draft because of his shooting ability... but 4-years, 75 million with potential to reach 83 million? Holy ****
 

clonetrooper264

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I remember wanting allen Crabbe in the draft because of his shooting ability... but 4-years, 75 million with potential to reach 83 million? Holy ****
Man...JLin got shafted by the Nets
 
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remydat

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I am stunned/aghast that this statement was made. Honestly. If you polled 1,000,000 NBA fans about what they thought of Barkley's comments on Durant's move to Golden State, not a single person would have mentioned Durant entering the league as a teenager in any context. Not a single person out of 1,000,000 people. It has no relevance whatsoever.

Of course it does. People are complaining about players leaving in their primes well given the age at which a guy out of High School enters the league, you are essentially arguing that for something like the first 12-14 years of a player's career, they can't contemplate leaving for a contending team. That's basically an entire career in and of itself. And even after 12 years, a guy that came in at 18 would still only be 30 and so someone may still cry that they are in their prime. It's stupid.

If someone puts in 9 years with a team, I think that is more than enough time for them to decide it's time to move on to whichever team gives them the best chance to win a championship. So Barkley's point is stupid. The idea that Durant after 9 years with OKC shouldn't go to a team that in his view gives him the best chance of winning a championship is asinine.

I repeat:

The season before the trade Barkley was the 15th highest paid player in the NBA.

The season he was traded he was making the same as a guy like Karl Malone.

Again, reality bites you in the ass.

Which has already been addressed. He was making 4.6 million in an era where there was more of a hard cap. There was limited ability for teams to build super teams because you couldn't pay 3 or 4 guys 5-7 million as it would eat up damn near all of your cap and you couldn't go over. Super teams can be built today because teams like the Cavs or Warriors can just go over the cap and pay a luxury tax and offer players ridiculous sums. So when these old guys claim they would never have done what these guys today are doing, they are full of shit because the NBA salary cap and landscape is drastically different.

Barkley was never offered the opportunity to play with other elite players in his prime and make a **** ton of money doing so but then said, "Nah I want to win on my own." The offer would have never come because it was never that economically feasible back then.

And Barkely is a hypocrite because he left for a team with 2 superstars who were still superstars regardless of age and he is crying about the fact Lebron and Durant basically were smart enough to do the same thing earlier in their careers in part because their careers started much earlier than Barkely's did and because the NBA salary cap and structure makes it possible.

You keep going on about Barkley's circumstances being different which if that is the case then it works both ways. LeBron and Durant's situations are much different and nothing in Barkley's statement acknowledges these differences as reasons why they make they decisions they are making. If these differences are reasons for why Barkley isn't a hypocrite then they are also reasons why to be disappointed about guys taking advantage of the situations they operate in today and say they are cheating their way to a championship is fucking absurd. That's what he said. That they were cheating. GTFOH. He's constantly crying about the young generation and it comes off as petty ego driven bullshit.
 

remydat

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Rockets team of superstars prior to Barkley = 48-34, 3rd in division

Warriors prior to Durant = 73-9, best record ever

Makes sense, in an amusing sort of way.

So what you are saying is Durant made the smarter choice in the super stars he chose to go play with. And?
 

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Again:

At no point in his chastising Durant did he claim his only objection was the timing. That is something you added to argue why he isn't a hypocrite.

Further, it is a matter of opinion whether you choose to consider that a significant enough distinction. We both know that Barkley went chasing after championships at some point in his career. So who is he to get upset that Durant chose to do so sooner in his career than he did? It's a stupid fucking distinction to make particularly when Durant gave OKC 9 years of his career because it's completely arbitrary.

If we assume that Barkley's view is as you said then all he did was set an arbitrary number for deciding that it's too soon for Durant to team up with superstars to chase a championship and lo and behold, that arbitrary number happens to ensure he is not included in the group he wants to chastise.

Since you're STILL intellectually bankrupt...

This is stupid.

I agree. Your entire point is stupid.

People that are hypocrites also lived their lives in reality so the fact we know this doesn't make Barkley any less a hypocrite.
Your entire basis for Barkley being a hypocrite is him criticizing Kevin Durant and Lebron James for doing something he himself did.

Barkley didn't do what James and Durant did based on the reality and context of the situations, therefore Barkley is not a hypocrite.


You can't claim Barkley is a hypocrite, calling into evidence what he did and using his past against him, then when the ACTUAL context of the history and situations are brought up claim that we can't make those distinctions because Barkley didn't.

YOU brought Barkley's past into the equation by making claims about/against him, as such his entire history and actual life is now admissible to evaluate and in this case rebuke those claims.

No one with a brain expects Barkley to give a 15 page address on the issue citing differences in his situation. We saw it happen, we have the internet, we have data and the actual experience. Normal minded people can evaluate this pretty easily.

You, for some reason, have the cognitive ability of a three year old and aren't able to.

So yes, I agree, this(you) are stupid.









That basically penalizes Durant because he entered the league as a teenager and is entirely self serving Bullshit by Barkley.
No. Here's the actual situation(s)..again:

Barkley was traded from a floundering Suns franchise to the Rockets at nearly 34 years old. He was joining Drexler and Hakeem who were both 34 as well and Houston was coming off a season where they didn't just set the NBA record for wins in a season.

Drexler retired a year later.
Olajuwon never started more than 50 games a year the rest of his career after 96-97 and was retired 5 years later.
Barkley retired 4 years later.

Barkley going to the Rockets is nothing like what has happened with James/Durant, unless you expect Durant, Curry, Thompson, and Green to all be retired in two to five seasons and the Warriors were a middling team in the West last year.

Barkley getting traded to the Rockets based on this offseason is most comparable to Wade coming to Chicago if ANY comparison is going to be made.

He didn't/should have had to make any distinction in his comments because people with a brain know the difference.

The other trade you bring up he went to the Suns, who had no other super star players, much less the reigning two time MVP, they hadn't made it past the 2nd round the previous two years..one year falling ou tin the 1st round...much less back to back NBA Finals appearances including a win, on top of all this the 76ers were a train wreck at the time. Barkley was asking for a trade to go to a team where he could be THE guy.

His comments going back years are about other established franchise guys in their prime, going to other teams to team up with other superstars to take a step back and chase rings.




You're easily the worst poster in this entire community.

Congrats.


Barkley, 33, has two years left on his contract,


I repeat:

The season before the trade Barkley was the 15th highest paid player in the NBA.

The season he was traded he was making the same as a guy like Karl Malone.

Again, reality bites you in the ass.
 

remydat

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The NFL has parity because the 50th guy has a similar change to succeed as the 10th guy picked. In the NBA the talent selection is not nearly hit and miss. There are also a lot fewer real difference makers in the NBA. Maybe 3 at any one time. In the NFL there are dozens at anyone time.

The NBA is more of an individual game and the NFL is more of a team game.

There are many reasons. Anyone who thinks the NBA can get by with all the talent on 2-4 teams for 20 years and not start to cripple is crazy. The pain is down the line when fan bases dwindle and arenas 25 cities are empty. If this trend continues I suspect that the NBA will be in very poor shape 20 years from now.

When hasn't the NBA been dominated by 2-4 teams? The 80s were dominated by the Lakers, Celtics with the Sixers and Pistons winning one championship each. The 90s where the Bulls and Rockets with the Pistons second championship comeing at the beginning of the decade and the Spurs coming at the end. The 2000s were the Lakers and Spurs with the Pistons, Heat, and Celtics get 1 title a piece.

The NBA has always seemed to have 1 or 2 dominate teams in a given decade. In fact, the 2010 to current is the first decade where we have had as many champions as the Lakers, Mavs, Spurs, Heat. Warriors and Spurs have all won. So if anything it's the fans of the traditional powers that seem upset that other teams have emerged.
 

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When hasn't the NBA been dominated by 2-4 teams? The 80s were dominated by the Lakers, Celtics with the Sixers and Pistons winning one championship each. The 90s where the Bulls and Rockets with the Pistons second championship comeing at the beginning of the decade and the Spurs coming at the end. The 2000s were the Lakers and Spurs with the Pistons, Heat, and Celtics get 1 title a piece.

The NBA has always seemed to have 1 or 2 dominate teams in a given decade. In fact, the 2010 to current is the first decade where we have had as many champions as the Lakers, Mavs, Spurs, Heat. Warriors and Spurs have all won. So if anything it's the fans of the traditional powers that seem upset that other teams have emerged.

:aj:
 

remydat

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That has nothing to do with what I posted. For the record, I am pro-Durant and anti-Barkley in this 'debate'. I take issue with YOU calling Barkley 'hypocritical' and treating his move to Houston as being the same as Durant going to GS. Those are incorrect statements.

It is the same from the perspective that he demanded a trade so he could go play with elite players to chase a championship. You guys want to make a distinction because of this concept of prime. That is fine if you choose to do that but I find that distinction irrelevant. They were still elite players so it's not like these were guys who skills had eroded so much that they were no longer elite. Both Hakeem and Barkley were top 10 in scoring and rebounding prior to the trade. Drexler was still one of the top 2 Guards in the NBA.

The fact there were better teams out there because of Jordan and Pippen or Stockton and Malone doesn't change the fact Barkley teamed up with 2 other studs. Again, Barkley seems to be crying about the fact, that Durant made a better choice than he did when he decided to go chase a ring. I have no doubt that if the salary cap had allowed for the Jazz or Bulls to pick up Barkley and they wanted him, he would have jumped at the chance so yeah he's a hypocrite.
 

remydat

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Its odd. You have two distinct statements in this thread...what Barkley said about Durant, and what remydat said about Barkley. When we question what remydat says about Barkley, why does he refer back to what Barkley said about Durant?

I am flummoxed to the point of exhaustion at this point.

This is dumb. My statement about Barkley is that he is a hypocrite. In order to explain why I think that, I have to naturally discuss what Barkley said about Durant because it's his statements about Durant that make him a hypocrite.
 

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elite players to chase a championship.
Barkley was traded from a floundering Suns franchise to the Rockets at nearly 34 years old. He was joining Drexler and Hakeem who were both 34 as well and Houston was coming off a season where they didn't just set the NBA record for wins in a season.

Drexler retired a year later.
Olajuwon never started more than 50 games a year the rest of his career after 96-97 and was retired 5 years later.
Barkley retired 4 years later.

Barkley going to the Rockets is nothing like what has happened with James/Durant, unless you expect Durant, Curry, Thompson, and Green to all be retired in two to five seasons and the Warriors were a middling team in the West last year.

Barkley getting traded to the Rockets based on this offseason is most comparable to Wade coming to Chicago if ANY comparison is going to be made.

He didn't/should have had to make any distinction in his comments because people with a brain know the difference.

The other trade you bring up he went to the Suns, who had no other super star players, much less the reigning two time MVP, they hadn't made it past the 2nd round the previous two years..one year falling ou tin the 1st round...much less back to back NBA Finals appearances including a win, on top of all this the 76ers were a train wreck at the time. Barkley was asking for a trade to go to a team where he could be THE guy.

His comments going back years are about other established franchise guys in their prime, going to other teams to team up with other superstars to take a step back and chase rings.


....
 

FirstTimer

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So the actual historical context is irrelevant...good to know going forward. I guess I was under the impression that the facts were relevant.

We should have known by now that to remy, reality is not relevant.
 

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We aren't debating what Barkley said about Durant, we are debating what you said about Barkley. We are all in agreement about what Barkley said.

Exactly.

Barkley isn't a hypocrite because he didn't do what Durant did. The situations aren't the same.

That's it.

Remy's entire basis now seems to be some hypothetical scenario where Barkley would have joined the Bulls in 1996 if he had the chance.

1. This didn't happen. It's pure speculation if Barkley would have or wouldn't have.
2. Barkley still wasn't in his prime. Neither were Jordan or Pippen.

All this aside, to remy Barkley is apparently guilty of hypocrisy now because of some hypothetical alternative universe he has now set up in his own mind.

Great. Good stuff.
 

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