Luol Deng or Toni Kukoc who was better?

[97Bulls]

Hell, if Barkley was on the 1995 Bulls (the year Jordan returned) instead of Pippen, the Bulls probably would have won the championship that season instead of losing in 6 in the Magic.

See how unreasonable you are? Pippen had an amzing series vs orlando. It was jordan that was subpar. So now pippen gets blamed when jordan falls short?

 

[scottiepippen1994]

Um, I RARELY bring up stats and neither does Houf. You are completely off-base and are trying to cover up the fact that your opinions are largely based on your fanhood of the entire team.

If Jordan was never born, Barkley would have his one championship. Pippen would probably have zero. Kukoc would have zero. And Rodman would have 3-4 as the third or fourth best player on that Pistons' team. That is not based on stats either.

You calling Barkley a fatass shows that you are clearly biased against him because you ignore what he was able to accomplish with his athleticism and thickness for his entire career. The guy was a winner and a 1st option. Pippen was a winner and a 2nd option.

Number of all-star appearances are bullshit ways to evaluate a player because it is subjective. Barkley is a MUCH better scorer and MUCH better rebounder than Pippen while Pippen is a MUCH better defender. Based on what I have watched, I will take Barkley.

That's funny.....I Jordan was never born, the whole universe events of the world would be totally differant..I think it has somthing to do with the time space continuum...That's what Doc Brown and Marty McFly told me....Barkely might have been an actor or football player and not ever played basketball at all in the alternate universe...Pippen might never have been born at all....This messageboard might not even exist and I might not be talking to you right now....On single event like Jordan never being born could alter all of history.....

 

[BMR31]

That's funny.....I Jordan was never born, the whole universe events of the world would be totally differant..I think it has somthing to do with the time space continuum...That's what Doc Brown and Marty McFly told me....Barkely might have been an actor or football player and not ever played basketball at all in the alternate universe...Pippen might never have been born at all....This messageboard might not even exist and I might not be talking to you right now....On single event like Jordan never being born could alter all of history.....Bif back to the future

BG, before you start debating time and space, perhaps you should learn to spell the word different? One of the most basic english words. Just a thought.

 

[scottiepippen1994]

BG, before you start debating time and space, perhaps you should learn to spell the word different? One of the most basic english words. Just a thought.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XAe0PDnics]‪Back to the Future REMIX "Think, McFly, Think!"‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Barkley was plenty motivated until he knew his time was past in the late 90's. After that, he really did stop caring.

Caring alone doesn't make you a great player. It helps but it is not the deciding factor. Barkley did a lot of things better than Pippen. He was almost as good of a rebounder as Rodman. And he wasn't nearly as bad on defense as you make him out to me.

Barkley is a better player than Pippen or Rodman. That is the truth.

 

[BMR31]

Barkley was plenty motivated until he knew his time was past in the late 90's. After that, he really did stop caring.

Caring alone doesn't make you a great player. It helps but it is not the deciding factor. Barkley did a lot of things better than Pippen. He was almost as good of a rebounder as Rodman. And he wasn't nearly as bad on defense as you make him out to me.

Barkley is a better player than Pippen or Rodman. That is the truth.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

See how unreasonable you are? Pippen had an amzing series vs orlando. It was jordan that was subpar. So now pippen gets blamed when jordan falls short?

That team lacked rebounding and a balanced attack scoring. They had no low-post offense that could consistently get it done. Barkley would have given the Horace Grant-less/Rodman-less Bulls a fighting chance.

 

[BMR31]

That team lacked rebounding and a balanced attack scoring. They had no low-post offense that could consistently get it done. Barkley would have given the Horace Grant-less/Rodman-less Bulls a fighting chance.

That makes sense. But thinking Chuck was better than Pippen is a reach. He was way better than Rodman, though.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

That makes sense. But thinking Chuck was better than Pippen is a reach. He was way better than Rodman, though.

Pippen holds his own against anybody but Barkley was a dominant force in two aspects of the game. Pippen was great at all aspects of the game but he was never quite a dominant force at anything. Being the best perimeter defender in the league and an amazing finisher in transition makes him a pretty dominant player. But he is no Barkley.

 

[BMR31]

Pippen holds his own against anybody but Barkley was a dominant force in two aspects of the game. Pippen was great at all aspects of the game but he was never quite a dominant force at anything. Being the best perimeter defender in the league and an amazing finisher in transition makes him a pretty dominant player. But he is no Barkley.

Chuck was a better #1 guy, i will agree with that. But Pippen was more valuable to his teammates. I think if you switched the two in their prime, both of their value would drop considerably. So, i see what you are saying, but FOR THE BULLS, id take Pip over Chuck all day.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Chuck was a better #1 guy, i will agree with that. But Pippen was more valuable to his teammates. I think if you switched the two in their prime, both of their value would drop considerably. So, i see what you are saying, but FOR THE BULLS, id take Pip over Chuck all day.

I'm talking about strictly during the year when they lacked a PF. Other than that, Pippen over Chuck on the Bulls all day.

 

[BMR31]

I'm talking about strictly during the year when they lacked a PF. Other than that, Pippen over Chuck on the Bulls all day.

Eh the Bulls wouldnt have won either way. Jordan wasnt close to himself in those playoffs.

 

[houheffna]

I'm sorry Hue, somtimes we forget that your always right and that you are a certified NBA expert..How silly of us to debate someone who's opinion is the only one that counts here.....Tony Kucoc was awful and probabely didn't belong in the NBA..It is simply incredible that the Bulls were able to win three championships in a row with a garbage ass buster like Tony as the 6th man and 3rd leading scorer on that team..After all Tony was the worst 6th man in the history of sports..I promise and will may sure none of us ever eat homecooking again..Well just pile up on Mcdonalds and Donkin Donuts like you i f it pleases you oh great master of the messageboard....Please forgive us for disagreeing with you Lord..:bow:
We are nothing but the buzzing of flies to the likes of you your honor..

‪My dear, sweet brother Numsie!!‬‏ - YouTube

:bow::bowrofl:

Its hilarious how you speak like an idiot and have to illustrate your point with pictures like a damn kid. Grow up and put the Dr. Seuss books down.

 

[houheffna]

Rodman is better defender then Barkley, that is for sure. He was defensive player of the year 2 times. The value of Rodman is higher then Barkley one, especially in bulls team where we had scores like mj, pip, kerr, kukoc and others.

Rodman was a better defender than Barkley...but Barkley was a better player. And no, the value of Rodman is not higher than Barkley's...Barkley was a franchise player...Rodman was not.

 

[houheffna]

i am watching basketball and you are not playing as i understood.
dirk can score against anyone because opponent coach don't know how to defend him. Don Nelson's warriors team defended dirk well in 2007 and advanced to the second round. so defense is not 1 on 1 thing but team effort. i am sure that phil jackson could find the way to defend dirk by kukoc or you know who.... by scottie pippen.
barkley is more a scorer then defender. rodman is defense minded and can score too for fun.

Your assumption that Pippen could shut everybody down is hilarious. Putting Kukoc on one of the best scoring big men in NBA history is stupid. Comparing Rodman to Barkley is just plain stupid. Enough already.

 

[97Bulls]

Rodman was a better defender than Barkley...but Barkley was a better player. And no, the value of Rodman is not higher than Barkley's...Barkley was a franchise player...Rodman was not.

I always considered a franchise player a player you could build a team around with them being the best player. And be able to keep fans in the seats.

Dennis rodman was arguably the best player on that 90 pistons championship team when he avg basically a double double and was all-nba defense and won dpoy. I believe that once he started, he avg like 12 pts and 15 rbds. That piston team was built around defense and rodman was the best defender on that team.

And he was the clear best player on the pistons team from 91 to 92 where he got his other dpoy award and avg damn near 20 rebounds a game.

the year the spurs won 63 games, rodman missed the fort 20 games of the season roughly. The spurs were 8-11, not even 500. Rodman came back and they finished with 63 wins.

The bulls beat by the magic in 95. They get rodman, and not only do they sweep the magic, the bulls finish with the 72 wins that we all know about

And just as a point of emphasis, ben wallace was the most important player to that pistons champion 04 team.

The proof is there, rodman is a franchise type player.

Barkley? Amazing stats. An mvp, but nothing more.

 

[houheffna]

You must understand the pov that rami and heff come from. They're about stats. I'm about wins. My pov is tried and true. They're stat whores. The way they see a basketball game, is the same way I did when I was about 11 years old.

Like in the barkley/rodman comparison. A child would pick barkley cuz of his stats. But a championship coach would choose rodman cuz he's a winner. He's gonna do anything he needs to do to win. Barkley is an amazing talent. But he's not commited to winning. He has a errible work ethic and doesn't. Respect the game enough to utilize and maximize that amazing talent. That's why he has no rings. A lot of stats, but no rings.

Why do you think bob knight left his fat ass of the 84 olympic team? What he saw out of barkley was what we saw out of barkley his whole career. If he wanted stats, I'm sure barkley will get it for you. But lead a team to a championship? Forget it.

And as far as accomplishments, which I'm sure heff will allude to. Heff will say rodman didn't go to a lot of all-star games and didn't win all nba teams etc. Those are amzing accomplishments. But those are awards that are handed out to the best scorers. Not neccesarily the best players. I'm sure if you ask any nba player (including barkley) whose career they'd rather have, they all would choose rodmans.

Why don't you concentrate on saying something of substance instead of worrying about what "Heff" would say? You bring up 1984...he would win MVP in 1993!!! Fast forward 10 years. And who gives a damn what Bobby Knight thinks?

You grade players solely on what uniform they are wearing, not of any knowledge of the game. Here's a little tip for you...somebody else besides Bulls players could play basketball! Look up Barkley some time and actually study what he did. There is a reason he is on the all time top 50 list and Rodman isn't...Barkley in his prime was top 5 in the league...Rodman was never top 10...

 

[houheffna]

I always considered a franchise player a player you could build a team around with them being the best player. And be able to keep fans in the seats.

Dennis rodman was arguably the best player on that 90 pistons championship team when he avg basically a double double and was all-nba defense and won dpoy. I believe that once he started, he avg like 12 pts and 15 rbds. That piston team was built around defense and rodman was the best defender on that team.

And he was the clear best player on the pistons team from 91 to 92 where he got his other dpoy award and avg damn near 20 rebounds a game.

the year the spurs won 63 games, rodman missed the fort 20 games of the season roughly. The spurs were 8-11, not even 500. Rodman came back and they finished with 63 wins.

The bulls beat by the magic in 95. They get rodman, and not only do they sweep the magic, the bulls finish with the 72 wins that we all know about

And just as a point of emphasis, ben wallace was the most important player to that pistons champion 04 team.

The proof is there, rodman is a franchise type player.

Barkley? Amazing stats. An mvp, but nothing more.

Rodman was NEVER the best player on those Pistons teams...what the hell were you watching? And thinking you could build a team around Rodman is crazy. Calling Rodman a franchise player when he played a supporting role his whole career is absolutely ludicrous....what are you talking about?

You actually think Rodman was the main reason the Bulls would beat the Magic? My goodness man, you makes stuff up as you go along...

Barkley was a great player, not great rebounder, scorer...great player. There is no debate. There has been plenty of debate about Rodman. Did you know that Rodman was a BIG reason Jordan retired in 1998? Rodman was a big ass kid, and Jordan was tired of him and his antics. Lets stop portraying Rodman as some choir boy...its a bit much.

 

[scottiepippen1994]

Thank you Lord Heffer....You are God here......We are all stupid because you say so...If you say it, it is fact....Please don't banish us from your kingdom lord...Hal Hefner!!!!!...
:bow: :bow:

 

[nwfisch]

Spoiler

I think he's god too.

Houheffna is a member, he can't close threads like a mod can.