Luol Deng or Toni Kukoc who was better?

[scottiepippen1994]

Spoiler

I think he's god too.

Houheffna is a member, he can't close threads like a mod can.

Adolf Hefna doesn't have to be a mod, He's GOD!! He can just stike a bolt of lightning down on us all...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfxKueh1_CY]‪Man is Struck TWICE by Lightning !‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]

This guy talked back to HueHitler a few too many times. He is dead now..be careful!

 

[97Bulls]

Why don't you concentrate on saying something of substance instead of worrying about what "Heff" would say? You bring up 1984...he would win MVP in 1993!!! Fast forward 10 years. And who gives a damn what Bobby Knight thinks?

You grade players solely on what uniform they are wearing, not of any knowledge of the game. Here's a little tip for you...somebody else besides Bulls players could play basketball! Look up Barkley some time and actually study what he did. There is a reason he is on the all time top 50 list and Rodman isn't...Barkley in his prime was top 5 in the league...Rodman was never top 10...

Actually, most of the info I listed about rodman, happened when he was a piston and spur. Maybe if you would try to be more rational and stop trying to poke holes in any player that played alongside jordan, you'd see that these guys were pretty damn good. And its funny how you can not give a shit about what bob knight says, someone who's a respected basketball coach, but then refer to the top 50.

Why don't you get off your high horse and realize jordan didn't win those game and championships by himself. And the guys I've mentioned may not be a valuable as jordan, but they're still valuable.

It seems to me you'd rather have a team with a guy that capable of winning an mvp every year. But in sports, the object of the game is to fuckn win. It doesn't matter how you do it (aside from cheating) as long as you get it done.

I never said barkley wasn't as talented as rodman. I said barkley had a terrbile work ethic. And it cost him championships. Id even go so far as to say that if he played at around 225, intead of 270, and commited himself to winning by playing defense, he probably be top 5 all-time. Cuz the athletic abilty was there, the skills were there. He just never maximized it. Sure scoring is gonna get you the awards and accolades, but its not gonne get you championships. I see barkley as a beatiful woman that had bad hygine and didn't fix herself up. I don't know how much you know about cars, but just picture a race. One car has a thousand horspower, nitrous and all the go fast goodies, and the other car has 600, nut has the suspension put together and slick etc. Which car would win? The second car. Cuz the first while, having more power (talent) and has all the go fast goodies (accolades) the second has what it takes by maximizing its power.

And barkley wore out his welcome in philly and phoenix. Just like rodman did in san antonio and detroit. I really don't remember rodman comming back to the bulls as being the dealbreaker for jordan. I remember him (jordan) saying he wouldn't play without pippen and jackson. And that if the there was a strike/lockout, he would retire.

Its funny how facts can smack you dead in the face and you act as if their irrelevant

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

rodman<barkley?

blasphemous!

forget the fact that barkley was a 20 10 guy for a bunch of seasons and won an mvp and was the lead guy on a team that went to the nba finals

and that rodman played with jordan and pippen and was never that great of and offensive player

rodman MUST be better than barkely

 

[97Bulls]

rodman<barkley?

blasphemous!

forget the fact that barkley was a 20 10 guy for a bunch of seasons and won an mvp and was the lead guy on a team that went to the nba finals

and that rodman played with jordan and pippen and was never that great of and offensive player

rodman MUST be better than barkely

Barkley played with drexler and olajuwan. The barkley, drexler, olajuwan threesome was roughly the same age as the jordan, pippen, rodman trio. The coach? He had the reigning coach of the year in rudy T. No depth? That's not true either. Why didn't barkley get that team to a title? He had arguably the best team in 93, why didn't. He win a championship? Oh let me guess, it was his teams fault? Can't have it both ways. If the only player to get full credit for a championship is the best player, then the only player to get credit for a loss should be the best player.

And rodman wasn't a bad offensive player. He did SHOOT the ball. And normally when he did, it was when the game was well in hand and he would screw around. But he had a high offensive IQ, he always initiated the fast break, and was an amazing offensive rebounder.

Barkley, by his own admonition was a shitty defender. And I don't know what's worse, the fact that he knew this and didn't take any steps to change , or that he thought it was a joke.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Barkley played with drexler and olajuwan. The barkley, drexler, olajuwan threesome was roughly the same age as the jordan, pippen, rodman trio. The coach? He had the reigning coach of the year in rudy T. No depth? That's not true either. Why didn't barkley get that team to a title? He had arguably the best team in 93, why didn't. He win a championship? Oh let me guess, it was his teams fault? Can't have it both ways. If the only player to get full credit for a championship is the best player, then the only player to get credit for a loss should be the best player.

And rodman wasn't a bad offensive player. He did SHOOT the ball. And normally when he did, it was when the game was well in hand and he would screw around. But he had a high offensive IQ, he always initiated the fast break, and was an amazing offensive rebounder.

Barkley, by his own admonition was a shitty defender. And I don't know what's worse, the fact that he knew this and didn't take any steps to change , or that he thought it was a joke.

rodman only averaged over 10 PPG once..he was a good defender and rebounder no doubt..and he's a great great player..but barkley was a much much better scorer on the offensive end and was a great rebounder especially for his size

his defense isnt as bad as some think...defense rebounding is a part of defense some dismiss..but i think its important considering it takes away another offensive opportunity..and charles was fantastic on the boards

charles could also carry his team as a leader..rather than a guy who,although is a great player, was always a supporter rather than a playmaker (think phoenix and philly)

you may say..thats who rodman is..but thats just it...thats why he isnt better than barkley...barkley could be the face of a franchise...rodman wasnt that type of a player


is he a top 100 player? rodman? ya..he is...but he isnt better than barkley imo

 

[houheffna]

Actually, most of the info I listed about rodman, happened when he was a piston and spur. Maybe if you would try to be more rational and stop trying to poke holes in any player that played alongside jordan, you'd see that these guys were pretty damn good. And its funny how you can not give a shit about what bob knight says, someone who's a respected basketball coach, but then refer to the top 50.

Why don't you get off your high horse and realize jordan didn't win those game and championships by himself. And the guys I've mentioned may not be a valuable as jordan, but they're still valuable.

It seems to me you'd rather have a team with a guy that capable of winning an mvp every year. But in sports, the object of the game is to fuckn win. It doesn't matter how you do it (aside from cheating) as long as you get it done.

I never said barkley wasn't as talented as rodman. I said barkley had a terrbile work ethic. And it cost him championships. Id even go so far as to say that if he played at around 225, intead of 270, and commited himself to winning by playing defense, he probably be top 5 all-time. Cuz the athletic abilty was there, the skills were there. He just never maximized it. Sure scoring is gonna get you the awards and accolades, but its not gonne get you championships. I see barkley as a beatiful woman that had bad hygine and didn't fix herself up. I don't know how much you know about cars, but just picture a race. One car has a thousand horspower, nitrous and all the go fast goodies, and the other car has 600, nut has the suspension put together and slick etc. Which car would win? The second car. Cuz the first while, having more power (talent) and has all the go fast goodies (accolades) the second has what it takes by maximizing its power.

And barkley wore out his welcome in philly and phoenix. Just like rodman did in san antonio and detroit. I really don't remember rodman comming back to the bulls as being the dealbreaker for jordan. I remember him (jordan) saying he wouldn't play without pippen and jackson. And that if the there was a strike/lockout, he would retire.

Its funny how facts can smack you dead in the face and you act as if their irrelevant

If he was 225 lbs in the 1990s he would have been working at McDonald's! How many 225 pound men with Barkley's skills do what he can do? That makes no sense.

You don't have any facts...Jordan left the team BECAUSE of Pippen and Rodman amongst other things. Hate to break it to you, but Jordan was tired of those guys. Pippen waited until the season to have surgery which pissed Jordan off, and Rodman was like a damn kid and couldn't stay focused. Sam Smith wrote about it...

How Jordan's decision spelled demise - NBA - ESPN

i have to uncork this for nonbelievers who think the Bulls are some superhero team that always got along...I repeat, this is not a comic book, that was reality.

 

[97Bulls]

If he was 225 lbs in the 1990s he would have been working at McDonald's! How many 225 pound men with Barkley's skills do what he can do? That makes no sense.

You don't have any facts...Jordan left the team BECAUSE of Pippen and Rodman amongst other things. Hate to break it to you, but Jordan was tired of those guys. Pippen waited until the season to have surgery which pissed Jordan off, and Rodman was like a damn kid and couldn't stay focused. Sam Smith wrote about it...

How Jordan's decision spelled demise - NBA - ESPN

i have to uncork this for nonbelievers who think the Bulls are some superhero team that always got along...I repeat, this is not a comic book, that was reality.

I honestly don't think anything in that article is true. I remember the general understanding was that jordan did not want to be apart of rebuilding team at 35 years old. Just think, if he wanted pippen and rodman gone, I'm sure krause would've obliged. Hell pippen made it clear he was not resigning. I remember him crying cuz he knew the dynasty was over

And I remember him saying in an interview that he believed that the bulls should had the opportunity to continue to defend their title and once they lost, the team was gonna be broken up. I even feel krause sabotaged the team by doing things like trading jason caffey for dickie simpkins. I remember seeing it on wgn news. And they interviewd jordan adpnd he said caffey had called him, and he (jordan) said something to the effect of "don't tell me they traded you".

Krause was on record saying he didn't want the bulls to be like the celtics. And wanted to rebuild.

To this day jordan and krause don't speak. Krause didn't even attend jordan hof ceremony. And jordan routinely took shots at krause.

That article just isn't true

Ill have to do some digging. But I'm sure I can find stuff to rebutal this.

 

[97Bulls]

I didn't understand the 225 lb question. Can you exand on it?

 

[nwfisch]

I didn't understand the 225 lb question. Can you exand on it?

I think what hou was saying that if Barkley was 225 lb, he would have had no advantage over anyone else with similar height and weight. He would not have made it in the NBA as a 225 lb. player.

 

[97Bulls]

I think what hou was saying that if Barkley was 225 lb, he would have had no advantage over anyone else with similar height and weight. He would not have made it in the NBA as a 225 lb. player.

Like hell he wouldn't have. Barkley was verys strong. Playing with all that wiegt did nothing but slow him down. He should've been a SF. With the ability to post up smaller guys, and take bigger guys off the dribble. And be able to defend at least 3 positions.

Let me put it like this. What if jordan played at 270? I don't think he'd be anywhere as good as barkley. Barkley squandered all that god given ability. And that was due to lack of work ethic. I've played with talented guys that give a shit. Those type of player that are half hearted and halfass when the game did center arround them. That was barkley. Barkley could dunk on you or shoot the hree or take you off the dribble, and then he'd get schooledon defense. And didn't. Really mind that.

 

[houheffna]

Like hell he wouldn't have. Barkley was verys strong. Playing with all that wiegt did nothing but slow him down. He should've been a SF. With the ability to post up smaller guys, and take bigger guys off the dribble. And be able to defend at least 3 positions.

Let me put it like this. What if jordan played at 270? I don't think he'd be anywhere as good as barkley. Barkley squandered all that god given ability. And that was due to lack of work ethic. I've played with talented guys that give a shit. Those type of player that are half hearted and halfass when the game did center arround them. That was barkley. Barkley could dunk on you or shoot the hree or take you off the dribble, and then he'd get schooledon defense. And didn't. Really mind that.

Charles Barkley was not a guard and never played like one. He was NATURALLY a big man...naturally. He was amongst league leaders in rebounds and was an all league all star power forward...and you wanted him to play guard? He won MVP as a power forward! You have to be kidding me. He is one of the best power forwards ever...I have no clue what you are talking about.

 

[houheffna]

I honestly don't think anything in that article is true. I remember the general understanding was that jordan did not want to be apart of rebuilding team at 35 years old. Just think, if he wanted pippen and rodman gone, I'm sure krause would've obliged. Hell pippen made it clear he was not resigning. I remember him crying cuz he knew the dynasty was over

And I remember him saying in an interview that he believed that the bulls should had the opportunity to continue to defend their title and once they lost, the team was gonna be broken up. I even feel krause sabotaged the team by doing things like trading jason caffey for dickie simpkins. I remember seeing it on wgn news. And they interviewd jordan adpnd he said caffey had called him, and he (jordan) said something to the effect of "don't tell me they traded you".

Krause was on record saying he didn't want the bulls to be like the celtics. And wanted to rebuild.

To this day jordan and krause don't speak. Krause didn't even attend jordan hof ceremony. And jordan routinely took shots at krause.

That article just isn't true

Ill have to do some digging. But I'm sure I can find stuff to rebutal this.

Reading is fundamental. Krause was pushed aside. Do some digging...when I posted it, I knew you couldn't handle it. Its okay...believe what you want. I don't believe in fairy tales...

I have heard many who were around at the time say many of the same things. The truth is the truth brother...but you don't have to accept it.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

barkley was a post man who used his weight and his ability to block out and time to rebound and score inside

if he was 225 lbs..i wouldnt go as far as to say he wouldnt be in the nba completely...but having a bigger frame certainly helps when you play more comfortably in the post despite being undersized

 

[97Bulls]

Charles Barkley was not a guard and never played like one. He was NATURALLY a big man...naturally. He was amongst league leaders in rebounds and was an all league all star power forward...and you wanted him to play guard? He won MVP as a power forward! You have to be kidding me. He is one of the best power forwards ever...I have no clue what you are talking about.

I never said he was a guard. I said he'd be better suited as a small forward. Maybe like an adrian dantley type. But a supercharged version of dantley. That is if he did have all that weight. I said he could take bigger guys off the dribble and use his athletic ability. Kinda like derrick coleman. You think guards are the only players on the court that can dribble?

He was a power forward cuz he was too fat to play defense on the perimeter. And yes he was a great rebounder, but his defense suffered. I'm telln you if he was lighter, his athletic abilty would've been amazing. He moved amazing well for a guy his size. I don't think he would've lost any of his natural strength just gained more of his god given abilities.

So yes he was a great power forward. But he'd probably would've been the best ever small forward had he had a better work ethic. Your impressed with him cuz he could fill a stat sheet. Hell rodman could do that. The only difference is that there really isn't or wasn't a stat for how effective you were as a defender. You had to earn it. Guys had to grow to respect you as a defender. Your too blind to see the difference.

 

[97Bulls]

Reading is fundamental. Krause was pushed aside. Do some digging...when I posted it, I knew you couldn't handle it. Its okay...believe what you want. I don't believe in fairy tales...

I have heard many who were around at the time say many of the same things. The truth is the truth brother...but you don't have to accept it.

Lol I don't worship sam smith like you. The general consensus is that krause broke the bulls up cuz

1. He believed he didn't receive proper credit for putting the teams together,

2. He didn't. Want the bulls to end up like the laker, celtics, and pistons.

Smith feeling jordan didn't want to play with pippen is news to me.

Espn did a special and not once did I hear that notion

‪NBA Documentary - Did Jerry Krause break up the Chicago Bulls dynasty PART 1‬‏ - YouTube

 

[97Bulls]

barkley was a post man who used his weight and his ability to block out and time to rebound and score inside

if he was 225 lbs..i wouldnt go as far as to say he wouldnt be in the nba completely...but having a bigger frame certainly helps when you play more comfortably in the post despite being undersized

I think looking back, barkley wouldve sacrificed a few boards in return for a better work ethic, and being a better defender.

 

[houheffna]

Lol I don't worship sam smith like you. The general consensus is that krause broke the bulls up cuz

1. He believed he didn't receive proper credit for putting the teams together,

2. He didn't. Want the bulls to end up like the laker, celtics, and pistons.

Smith feeling jordan didn't want to play with pippen is news to me.

Espn did a special and not once did I hear that notion

‪NBA Documentary - Did Jerry Krause break up the Chicago Bulls dynasty PART 1‬‏ - YouTube

Did you watch the second part? They repeated Sam Smith's article almost verbatim...he just went deeper than they did. What is so hard to believe about Jordan being upset with Pippen for putting himself before the team? Why would it be hard to think Jordan was tired of Rodman's antics and the fact that as the trilogy continued, Rodman got lazier and lazier on the defensive end and became more distracted? How is that difficult to understand?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyjObWm8f-E&feature=related]‪NBA Documentary - Did Jerry Krause break up the Chicago Bulls dynasty PART 2‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]

Because its news to you...its not true...and because I cited the author of Jordan Rules (which NOBODY disputes...) who as he pointed out...does NOT get along with Krause himself, I worship Sam Smith. You have to resort to that insult, though I hardly ever bring Smith up in conversation. That is very sad.

I can only imagine how you felt when you found out there was no Santa Claus.

 

[houheffna]

I never said he was a guard. I said he'd be better suited as a small forward. Maybe like an adrian dantley type. But a supercharged version of dantley. That is if he did have all that weight. I said he could take bigger guys off the dribble and use his athletic ability. Kinda like derrick coleman. You think guards are the only players on the court that can dribble?

He was a power forward cuz he was too fat to play defense on the perimeter. And yes he was a great rebounder, but his defense suffered. I'm telln you if he was lighter, his athletic abilty would've been amazing. He moved amazing well for a guy his size. I don't think he would've lost any of his natural strength just gained more of his god given abilities.

So yes he was a great power forward. But he'd probably would've been the best ever small forward had he had a better work ethic. Your impressed with him cuz he could fill a stat sheet. Hell rodman could do that. The only difference is that there really isn't or wasn't a stat for how effective you were as a defender. You had to earn it. Guys had to grow to respect you as a defender. Your too blind to see the difference.

And Rodman could have been a better player if he took the dress off and bettered his game offensively...didn't happen, so we look at them as they are. Your take on Barkley...is weird to say the least. Barkley's game was fantastic as it was. You are reaching for straws here. Again, he was an all time great...woulda coulda shoulda has nothing to do with what was. Its like saying if Magic worked on his game, he could have been a great shooting guard...I don't think so...but who the hell cares??? He was great as a point guard, arguably the greatest ever...and he was even worse than Barkley defensively.

At the end of the day, your argument fails and you know it, so now its about Barkley could have been Dr. J. What the hell is that...first ballot hall of fame all time great. Barkley earned that on the court by bangin with the big boys. playing at 250 is one thing, 220? LOL...you are definitely reaching...

 

[97Bulls]

Did you watch the second part? They repeated Sam Smith's article almost verbatim...he just went deeper than they did. What is so hard to believe about Jordan being upset with Pippen for putting himself before the team? Why would it be hard to think Jordan was tired of Rodman's antics and the fact that as the trilogy continued, Rodman got lazier and lazier on the defensive end and became more distracted? How is that difficult to understand?

‪NBA Documentary - Did Jerry Krause break up the Chicago Bulls dynasty PART 2‬‏ - YouTube

Because its news to you...its not true...and because I cited the author of Jordan Rules (which NOBODY disputes...) who as he pointed out...does NOT get along with Krause himself, I worship Sam Smith. You have to resort to that insult, though I hardly ever bring Smith up in conversation. That is very sad.

I can only imagine how you felt when you found out there was no Santa Claus.

Lol there was nothing in that video that would even give the slightest hint that jordan retired cuz he didn't want to play with rodman and pippen. Nothing. Now maybe I missed something (I didn't) so can you please pinpoint the exact time frame on this video where they say jordan retired cuz he was mad at scottie pippen and was sick of rodmans childish antics.

Cuz all I heard from that espn special, was everything I already knew. Jordan and krause didn't get along, krause and jackson didn't get along, and pippen and krause didn't get along.

 

[97Bulls]

And Rodman could have been a better player if he took the dress off and bettered his game offensively...didn't happen, so we look at them as they are. Your take on Barkley...is weird to say the least. Barkley's game was fantastic as it was. You are reaching for straws here. Again, he was an all time great...woulda coulda shoulda has nothing to do with what was. Its like saying if Magic worked on his game, he could have been a great shooting guard...I don't think so...but who the hell cares??? He was great as a point guard, arguably the greatest ever...and he was even worse than Barkley defensively.

At the end of the day, your argument fails and you know it, so now its about Barkley could have been Dr. J. What the hell is that...first ballot hall of fame all time great. Barkley earned that on the court by bangin with the big boys. playing at 250 is one thing, 220? LOL...you are definitely reaching...

There's nothing weird about my take on barkley. I readily admit that he's an all-time great. But he could've been sooooo much more. And I'm about winning. Barkley cost himself championships. He has noone to blame but himself.

And as I already stated, rodman would be ranked a lot higher had he not done some off the wall stuff to say the least. I think hell be ranked a lot higher in the next all-time great ranking.