Official WhiteSox Trade Discussion VOL 1

[BigP50]

I want is to bring up a lot of minor league guys for experience since we are going no where.

 

[Lefty]

im glad we're in agreement as well.... my entire point for saying that teahen was on the dl for 4-6 weeks was to point out that we could trade him in early july and bring up morel ASSUMING he does well in AAA... but i know the kid and if ive ever met someone with more chrarisma and excitment to be in the majors- it would be brent.

I love when two people say the same exact thing in two totally different ways

Good. But understand that it's not as simple as saying "trade Teahen when he comes off the DL". His arb years are bought out, he's signed through 2012 and he's kinda bad; I highly doubt there's much of a market for him.

 

[MattAbbatacola12]

Good. But understand that it's not as simple as saying "trade Teahen when he comes off the DL". His arb years are bought out, he's signed through 2012 and he's kinda bad; I highly doubt there's much of a market for him.

i agree with that completely.... this leads to another reason why i effing hate arbitration.

 

[Lefty]

i agree with that completely.... this leads to another reason why i effing hate arbitration.

Yeah, keeping players from having to sign for whatever amount their current contract holder dictates can be such a pain in the ass, can't it? Furthermore, free agency is a rash on the game of baseball, and should be dealt with accordingly.

 

[MattAbbatacola12]

Yeah, keeping players from having to sign for whatever amount their current contract holder dictates can be such a pain in the ass, can't it? Furthermore, free agency is a rash on the game of baseball, and should be dealt with accordingly.

uhm im talking about the history of arbitration and free agency and the players union. i agree with it to a certain extent but it started the steroid era and promoted it.

 

[Lefty]

uhm im talking about the history of arbitration and free agency and the players union. i agree with it to a certain extent but it started the steroid era and promoted it.

...........please, for the love of God explain why and how this makes sense in your head enough for you to write it out and tell other people as much. (but first, make clear what you think started the steroid era [arbitration, free agency or the players union] because you listed some different things in your post, kthxbi)

 

[MattAbbatacola12]

...........please, for the love of God explain why and how this makes sense in your head enough for you to write it out and tell other people as much. (but first, make clear what you think started the steroid era [arbitration, free agency or the players union] because you listed some different things in your post, kthxbi)

Oh I can tell you're going to be a fun character to chat with on here. Allright- listen carefully because I'm only going to explain it once.

Baseball above any other sport is based on stats, so much that it pays based on stats. You can not tell me that all the ability to negotiate contracts based on performance did not push players towards taking any edge that they could in order to get higher contracts when the ability to take steroids came to light.

the word "pro" means its a "profession" and just as in any other profession, people will cheat lie and steal to get ahead- free agency, arbitration, the players union etc (while i admit are good for a lot of other things) are all tools that in one way or another allow a player to negotiate his contract based on performance.

If tim lincecum didnt preform the way he did he couldnt have requested the amount of money that he did when he went to arbitration this past year. if (and this obviously is hypothetical) tim lincecum put a little more into his body than just pot to push himself ahead of the game, then he was able to negotiate for more money using one of the previously stated tools after falsifying information to the giants in order to gain profit for himself.

Good? Good. And can we make a man rule that guys can't write "kthxbi" in their posts? :-/

 

[Lefty]

Oh I can tell you're going to be a fun character to chat with on here. Allright- listen carefully because I'm only going to explain it once.

I can't wait......

Baseball above any other sport is based on stats,

Not....really. Baseball is a game based on ability and experience, which makes it not unlike many other team sports in that regard. What I think you're trying to say is that the statistics garnered from on-field events tell us a whole lot more about the individuals playing the game than stats from other team games, coming mainly from the construction of the game, in which we see many isolated, one-on-one events (throughout the course of a game, season, career, etc.) than in other sports.

so much that it pays based on stats.

Again: not really. I mean I get what you're saying, but really what baseball teams pay their players is largely based on value. Teams release, re-sign and promote players based on their supposed value added to the team, and while statistics play a large role in determining that value, to be sure (think micro economics to macro economics), we have seen many times that teams make moves on perceived value, not necessarily actual value as determined by stats (this is to say nothing of the ambiguity of the value realized by analyzing defensive metrics).

You can not tell me that all the ability to negotiate contracts based on performance did not push players towards taking any edge that they could in order to get higher contracts when the ability to take steroids came to light.

Players have "cheated" to gain a competitive advantage throughout the entire history of baseball, long before salary arbitration and free agency. Remember the "spit ball"? How about cork being inserted into the barrel of bats or sandpaper being used to scuff up a baseball? Those things were happening way before even the first failed attempt at forming a player's union, thus placing them WAY before the ability to declare free agency. Hell, widespread amphetamine use became a problem in the 50's, some twenty years before the arbitration ruling that created the free agent market.

So ok, widespread cheating in baseball this time around was aimed at larger salaries...so? Years before it was aimed at being the next pitch-man for Pall Malls or even winning the World Series. Why aren't you out decrying the institution of "winning" in baseball?

the word "pro" means its a "profession"

Thanks, genius

free agency, arbitration, the players union etc (while i admit are good for a lot of other things) are all tools that in one way or another allow a player to negotiate his contract based on performance.

Yeah, so? That in no way makes widespread PED-use the fault of institutional contract negotiating tools.

If tim lincecum didnt preform the way he did he couldnt have requested the amount of money that he did when he went to arbitration this past year. if (and this obviously is hypothetical) tim lincecum put a little more into his body than just pot to push himself ahead of the game, then he was able to negotiate for more money using one of the previously stated tools after falsifying information to the giants in order to gain profit for himself.

So because people abused the vehicle to higher salaries in order to profit more than they normally would have, the blame is placed on the shoulders of the medium through which higher or lower salaries are awarded? That's absolutely ridiculous.

You are implicitly treating salary arbitration and free agency as though they should have stopped or otherwise hindered cheaters from landing mega contracts. This is a ludicrous notion because even a simpleton can understand that contract negotiation has absolutely nothing to do with adherence to the rules (written or unwritten, whatever the case may be).

Furthermore, you are consistently confusing correlation with causation. Large salaries garnered by cheaters correlates well with the implementation and use of things like free agency, yes, but it's completely asinine to make the leap from "the use of arbitration and free agency correlates with high salaries begotten by cheaters by way of arbitration and free agency" to "arbitration and free agency caused and promoted the steroid era". That's a completely fallacious sentiment to have and share with other people. Stop it.

Good? Good. And can we make a man rule that guys can't write "kthxbi" in their posts? :-/

 

[MattAbbatacola12]

the fact that you took all the time you write that... leads me to make 3 points.

1) I'm all for an intelligent conversation and a little bantar back and forth but your condescending attitude is highly unappreciative and extreamly rude. your behavior leads me to believe that you live for making yourself look better by bringing others down in baseball related arguments when instead you should be perhaps using your knowledge to carry on a conversation like a real person. Your assumption that you know apparently everything in the world about the "cause" and/or "correlation" about steroids and salaries makes me sick. Instead of having such a negative "better than you" attitude why don't you take a step away from the keyboard where you clearly feel superior to those in forum boards, and pretend to act like an actual human being and implore other's opinions on different topics.

2) I could go on to make my point using tons of large words and italics and patronizing smiley faces and space out your different points to counter back with my own, but I'm not going to. There's a very simple reason for that. I simply don't care what your opinon on the matter is. My ex was a first round draft pick. We dated for 3 yeas. He did steroids (excuse the pun) out the ass. When I asked him why, he said "I'll get more money.The minor league director said if I hit more bombs and cut back on my strike outs I'll get a larger bonus when I get called up." Simple as that. So I beg to differ with your "performance and stats don't directly coorelate or or cause larger salaries" argument. Perhaps to someone who analyzes the value of a player in the way you do, it doesn't, but to farm directors and GM's, it does. It's plan and simple. There's no grey area. Better stats, better performance, = better salary. All of those tools alllow the player to negotiate for a better salary, which pushes many many many ballplayers to use steroids.

3) The next time you tell me to "stop" having an opinon or to "stop" telling people what I think when it comes to baseball, you can "stop" responding to my posts on this board, because I will not talk to or have anything to do with someone who is so disdainful, arrogant, and down-right horrible. you are not my father, you are not my priest, you are not my boss, and you are as hell are not professional baseball player (even though I have a feeling you think you should be). I refuse to allow you to think that you can control my posts and/or opinions over a FORUM board. The simple fact that this is making you so upset and feel as though you need to get into such an intense episode with a 23 year old girl over the internet seriously makes me question your intentions on this board and mental stability in general.

 

[Got teeth? Keith doesn't.]

Yea, he's kinda like the forum dbag. Surprising, isn't it?

 

[MattAbbatacola12]

Yea, he's kinda like the forum dbag. Surprising, isn't it?

i guess every forum has one haha. Im pretty confident that unless its going to be a regular intelligent conversation that doesn't include a complaisant attitude i'll be ignorning lefty

 

[Got teeth? Keith doesn't.]

i guess every forum has one haha. Im pretty confident that unless its going to be a regular intelligent conversation that doesn't include a complaisant attitude i'll be ignorning lefty

That's what everyone tends to do.

 

[BigP50]

lol yup

 

[Lefty]

the fact that you took all the time you write that... leads me to make 3 points.

On pins and needles, I am

1) I'm all for an intelligent conversation and a little bantar back and forth but your condescending attitude is highly unappreciative and extreamly rude.

Really? This coming from the person whose original drawn-out post included such zingers as:

Allright- listen carefully because I'm only going to explain it once.

Good? Good. And can we make a man rule that guys can't write "kthxbi" in their posts? :-/

That seems a little...I dunno...hypocritical, don't ya think? Especially considering I'm more than positive the post I am currently responding to will contain at least one "I know what I'm talking about because I can take one fact about my personal life that no one gives a fucking shit about and extrapolate it to fit the entirety of professional baseball"-type post.

And besides, if you don't like the way I respond to you when you say stupid shit....just don't say stupid shit. See? Simple.

your behavior leads me to believe that you live for making yourself look better by bringing others down in baseball related arguments when instead you should be perhaps using your knowledge to carry on a conversation like a real person.

No, I just don't like it when people wade into a conversation and start letting people know "the way things are" in an authoritative manner when in fact that person decidedly does not know what they're talking about. You are this kind of person, at least in this regard.

And again: don't say stupid shit from your ivory tower construct and the reaction won't be as harsh. Try to think for a change, because here you are met with at least one person that is at least a more-than-formidable opponent. (And to stop your response before it even gets started: no, not every conversation is a battle or confrontation that needs to be won or lost, and yes, I realize that this is an internet message board, that's not the point)

Your assumption that you know apparently everything in the world about the "cause" and/or "correlation" about steroids and salaries makes me sick.

And it makes you wrong. Besides, I never claimed to know everything about this topic, or any topic, really. Just more than you (if only on this subject).

Instead of having such a negative "better than you" attitude

It's not "better than you", it's "I'm almost painfully right on this subject, and you are demonstrably wrong".

why don't you take a step away from the keyboard

Oh great, here we go with the "internet tough guy" and "i bet you are this type of person" bullshit you get from people that don't like being called out on their stupid shit. It's ok, just learn from it and try not to do it in the future. The rest of this sentence warrants nothing in the way of a response from me.

2) I could go on to make my point using tons of large words

But their usage would almost assuredly be incorrect, and I don't even want to think about spelling.

and space out your different points to counter back with my own,

It's called "fisking", and it's a perfectly acceptable form of response on message boards. It keeps everything nice and neat, and limits possible confusion on points being discussed.

I simply don't care what your opinon on the matter is.

So wait, I'm supposed to "step back from the keyboard" and verbally massage opinions out of people for further discussion, but you can say shit like this? I care at least somewhat about your opinions, it just so happens that your opinion on this matter is dumb and just flat out wrong.

My ex was a first round draft pick.

Nailed it. Am I good or what?

Look, I'm sure you put a lot of work into what you're about to say about your ex and tried really hard to make what he apparently said fit your arguments, but in the end you're just offering up hearsay as proof positive of your point and extrapolating the outcome from that sample size of 1 to fit the global data set, and it's not going to work.

So I beg to differ with your "performance and stats don't directly coorelate or or cause larger salaries" argument.

For someone who struggles to look at a dictionary and construct coherent sentences, you sure do construct straw men pretty well.

Perhaps to someone who analyzes the value of a player in the way you do, it doesn't, but to farm directors and GM's, it does.

Sorry to say (not really, but that's what people say, I guess), but the way I value player performance actually falls in line quite nicely with how many GM's and front-office personnel do the same.

It's plan and simple. There's no grey area. Better stats, better performance, = better salary. All of those tools alllow the player to negotiate for a better salary, which pushes many many many ballplayers to use steroids.

Yes, but that isn't the fault of salary arbitration or free agency (again, you are implicitly treating those two tools as though they should have stopped or hindered steroid users from gaining mega-deals, which is, like much of what you say, utterly fucking stupid).

And to clarify your own argument for you, what you really have a problem with is the way goods and services have been priced and bartered over for the last 2000 years of human history: supply and demand. Good luck.

3) The next time you tell me to "stop" having an opinon or to "stop" telling people what I think when it comes to baseball, you can "stop" responding to my posts on this board,

Or you could just make life a whole lot easier on everyone and "stop" saying dumb things and maybe think about what you say before you say it. Just a thought.

because I will not talk to or have anything to do with someone who is so disdainful, arrogant, and down-right horrible.

I prefer the term "right", but you know, tomato-tomato and all that.

you are not my father, you are not my priest, you are not my boss,

Thank fucking God.

and you are as hell are not professional baseball player (even though I have a feeling you think you should be)

Not really. I have no delusions about my skill-set in high school and college baseball. I made it as far as club baseball in the Big Ten and some semi-pro stuff here in Chicago, and that's about as far as I could go. Now, if I hadn't met a snaggle tooth-looking broad in high school that all-but kept me out of baseball for two years, we might have a whole different story, but that's neither here nor there.

I refuse to allow you to think that you can control my posts and/or opinions over a FORUM board.

Right, because that's exactly what I'm trying to do

The simple fact that this is making you so upset and feel as though you need to get into such an intense episode with a 23 year old girl over the internet seriously makes me question your intentions on this board and mental stability in general.

:bowrofl: You have caught me. Please, be gentle. rolleyes

Yea, he's kinda like the forum dbag. Surprising, isn't it?

Oh shut the fuck up and go spew you stupid shit in another thread for awhile, I'll be there in a minute to clean up.

 

[Lefty]

lol yup

And you, don't even get me started on you.

 

[BigP50]

lol at you! ur a joke son.

 

[MattAbbatacola12]

oh my god. is this kid under the assumption that he runs the forum board?

 

[MattAbbatacola12]

is there anyway we can keep this conversation semi-civil and less douchey?

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

*eats popcorn* go on.....

 

[Lefty]

lol at you! ur a joke son.

You think youz a gangsta, but you just a pranksta

oh my god. is this kid under the assumption that he runs the forum board?

Well, I do kind of run this shit.

is there anyway we can keep this conversation semi-civil and less douchey?

I dunno, bring up something else and we shall see