Offseason discussion/rumors

czman

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Fowler got 5 years 82.5 million and a full no trade clause. I thought his value was at 3 to 4 years and 14 million. I am really shocked he got 5 years and a full no trade clause. When did the Cardinals lose their minds? I guess a Cubs WS and losing two players to the Cubs last off-season broke them.

I really think Fowler may be one of the best things to happen to the Cubs. He played well for the Cubs, helping win a WS during his prime years. Then he signed a 5 year deal, as he exists his prime, with a full no trade in the division, and it is highly unlikely he will live up to that contract.
 

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Fowler got 5 years 82.5 million and a full no trade clause. I thought his value was at 3 to 4 years and 14 million. I am really shocked he got 5 years and a full no trade clause. When did the Cardinals lose their minds? I guess a Cubs WS and losing two players to the Cubs last off-season broke them.

I really think Fowler may be one of the best things to happen to the Cubs. He played well for the Cubs, helping win a WS during his prime years. Then he signed a 5 year deal, as he exists his prime, with a full no trade in the division, and it is highly unlikely he will live up to that contract.
Sounds like the Cubs with Heyward
 

czman

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Actually, Fowler was more valuable to Bryant than the other way around. What made him special was working counts and taking a tremendous amount of walks. This gassed the pitcher with Bryant coming to the plate. And it forced the pitcher to go right at KB with a runner on first. The fact that Bryant batted behind Fowler makes DF pitch rate and walk rate even more impressive as the last thing the pitcher wanted to do was to walk Fowler.

????????

Keep telling yourself that.
 

fatbeard

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Fowler got 5 years 82.5 million and a full no trade clause. I thought his value was at 3 to 4 years and 14 million. I am really shocked he got 5 years and a full no trade clause. When did the Cardinals lose their minds? I guess a Cubs WS and losing two players to the Cubs last off-season broke them.

I really think Fowler may be one of the best things to happen to the Cubs. He played well for the Cubs, helping win a WS during his prime years. Then he signed a 5 year deal, as he exists his prime, with a full no trade in the division, and it is highly unlikely he will live up to that contract.

That simply can't the case. Many learned baseball minds on this very forum told us that Fowler wouldn't get more than 3/36 or 4/48, certainly not a fifth year, let alone a full NTC. And now you expect us to believe that Dexter Fowler signed a contract at his *gasp* actual market value???
 

czman

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Sounds like the Cubs with Heyward

Only if the Cardinals win the WS this season. Even then, Heyward is 4 years younger and has a longer 30+ WAR in 7 years to Fowlers sub 20 in 9 years. Odds are that Heyward will be better going forward.

I know you hate Heyward, but it is dangerous to be so strongly against something. If he turns it around you will look like a clown again. Loopy swing and the worst team in baseball may take a backseat if Heyward comes back next season and hits 285/360/430 with 15 HRs and wins another GG. Do you really want another season of being called out. Might want to let it die down for a bit and see how he plays next season.
 

czman

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That simply can't the case. Many learned baseball minds on this very forum told us that Fowler wouldn't get more than 3/36 or 4/48, certainly not a fifth year, let alone a full NTC. And now you expect us to believe that Dexter Fowler signed a contract at his *gasp* actual market value???

People were talking about 20 per for Fowler. I think the 16 he got is closer to th the 14 I predicted. The 5th year is odd. The full no trade was never even discussed to my knowledge. I think I was close on his value at 14 per year. I don't feel I got this very wrong. Moreover, I am really happy he signed the 5th year with the Cardinals.
 

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Only if the Cardinals win the WS this season. Even then, Heyward is 4 years younger and has a longer 30+ WAR in 7 years to Fowlers sub 20 in 9 years. Odds are that Heyward will be better going forward.

I know you hate Heyward, but it is dangerous to be so strongly against something. If he turns it around you will look like a clown again. Loopy swing and the worst team in baseball may take a backseat if Heyward comes back next season and hits 285/360/430 with 15 HRs and wins another GG. Do you really want another season of being called out. Might want to let it die down for a bit and see how he plays next season.
I pride myself on my abilities to discern situations and understand people. I'm right about 95% of the time. When I'm wrong I admit it and move one
 

DJMoore_is_fat

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I love Dex, but I think people don't realize how much the Cubs and their insane positioning group creates the defense they have. His defense only became passable with the Cubs because his range went from massively negative to slightly positive and the Cardinals don't have that system for him to walk in to. While his bat was good here, it was also incredibly streaky and it's always easier to get out of a slump when you're surrounded by great players because teams, even when you're struggling, still have to throw you strikes. He also derives a lot of value from baserunning and I'm not sure I trust a guy at age 32+ to give me highly positive baserunning value while playing every day in the outfield.

I love Dex, I think he was insanely valuable for the Cubs these past two years, but to give him 5/80 and give up a first round pick seems insane to me. Cardinals basically need Dex to be a 3+ WAR guy every year of this deal and if he's not that because his defense slips + time off due to an injury like he has every year, this deal can get away from you quickly. Someone is going to come in and tell me that $8 million / WAR is the current market rate and while I think I have even used that number in the past, I think that number is far too high to evaluate any deal and I was wrong when I did. Looking at what St Louis is paying for, I think they need Dexter to be about 15 WAR or else they've drastically overpaid the market (especially losing a first round pick).

I disagree. I think its a great signing by St. Louis. There is a pretty chance his production will match or come close to matching his salary. Dex is a high OBP guy with pretty good power - he set the tone for our offense the past two years. I highly doubt his production at the plate will decline significantly. He's a tremendous club house guy, which is immeasurable. And his fielding is adequate.

The guy played a huge role on a championship team. My only concern would be his ability to stay healthy. Regardless, the talent disparity between us and St. Louis is still significant. Dexter Fowler isn't getting them past us -- but it's a great signing and we should have some excellent battles.
 

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I pride myself on my abilities to discern situations and understand people. I'm right about 95% of the time. When I'm wrong I admit it and move one

From time to time I like regale this forum with a story:

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TC in Mississippi

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I disagree. I think its a great signing by St. Louis. There is a pretty chance his production will match or come close to matching his salary. Dex is a high OBP guy with pretty good power - he set the tone for our offense the past two years. I highly doubt his production at the plate will decline significantly. He's a tremendous club house guy, which is immeasurable. And his fielding is adequate.

The guy played a huge role on a championship team. My only concern would be his ability to stay healthy. Regardless, the talent disparity between us and St. Louis is still significant. Dexter Fowler isn't getting them past us -- but it's a great signing and we should have some excellent battles.

I'm not sure why people think Fowler can't live it up to this contract. I said an earlier post that he needed to amass 10-12 fWAR over the rest of the deal but as someone correctly pointed out it's really just 10 with WAR being valued at $8 mil/WAR. Dexter was a 4.7 WAR in 2016 and 3.3 WAR in 2015. Before coming to Chicago he played for some questionable teams in Houston and Colorado and didn't seem to get a lot of coaching. In Chicago he got that and he brings that with him to St. Louis. Now I don't think a lot about Matheny there but they do have talented coached and Dexter brings what he learned. I fully expect him to be a 4 WAR player in 2017 & 2018 and after that most of you get is gravy. If the Cardinals get 1 more big bat I think they nip at our heels all season and while I don't think they'll take the division I'd pencil them into the WC even without that bat. If you don't think Fowler makes them much better I think you're letting your emotions cloud your judgement.

edit: I realize you weren't on the negative side of this so when I say "you" it's the royal "you". Sorry for any confusion.
 

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From time to time I like regale this forum with a story:

"Cubs have morphed into one of the worst teams in baseball. Not a chance in hell they would win a single playoff game. Forum members and ESPN reporters claiming this is one of the best teams in history are fucking morons." Egg Scrambles prediction
It's the Mod with the anger management issues
 

fatbeard

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People were talking about 20 per for Fowler. I think the 16 he got is closer to th the 14 I predicted. The 5th year is odd. The full no trade was never even discussed to my knowledge. I think I was close on his value at 14 per year. I don't feel I got this very wrong. Moreover, I am really happy he signed the 5th year with the Cardinals.

My point was not about anything you specifically might have predicted. There were a bunch of absurd predictions that had Fowler settling for a contract that was 60% of his actual value. Just bizarre: http://www.chicitysports.com/forum/showthread.php/83103-Fowler-says-he-will-be-free-agent
 

czman

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I'm not sure why people think Fowler can't live it up to this contract. I said an earlier post that he needed to amass 10-12 fWAR over the rest of the deal but as someone correctly pointed out it's really just 10 with WAR being valued at $8 mil/WAR. Dexter was a 4.7 WAR in 2016 and 3.3 WAR in 2015. Before coming to Chicago he played for some questionable teams in Houston and Colorado and didn't seem to get a lot of coaching. In Chicago he got that and he brings that with him to St. Louis. Now I don't think a lot about Matheny there but they do have talented coached and Dexter brings what he learned. I fully expect him to be a 4 WAR player in 2017 & 2018 and after that most of you get is gravy. If the Cardinals get 1 more big bat I think they nip at our heels all season and while I don't think they'll take the division I'd pencil them into the WC even without that bat. If you don't think Fowler makes them much better I think you're letting your emotions cloud your judgement.

edit: I realize you weren't on the negative side of this so when I say "you" it's the royal "you". Sorry for any confusion.

I know common "wisdom" is that 1 WAR= 8mil, but I don't think that is what winning teams pay. I guess if you look at all of the FA contracts and tally up the price per WAR and average you may get something close to 8mill per WAR. That just seems like a silly way to look at it though. All that really means is that when you take all of the horrible contracts, all of the great contracts, and all of the rest you get an average. Teams don't win by getting average contracts. They just don't. They win by getting better than value for their money in a vast majority of the deals.

I think for a contract to be considered good, you really want to pay closer to 5-6 million per WAR. If you are paying 8 you are doing just as good as the most contracts and that will put you right in the middle of the pack (read that as competing for a WC spot).

Here is what I mean (dropping the value of the WS win this season).
Zobrist signed a 4 year 56 million dollar deal. For you he needs 7 WAR to be a good deal. I think that is way to expensive. at 6 million per WAR he needs 9.333. He needs about 6 WAR over the next 3 years to get to 6 million per WAR. He needs 5 for yours. If Zobrist adds 5 WAR over the next 3 seasons are you going to call that deal a success. My guess is no you won't.

Team really need to pay 5-6 million per WAR to be doing well. If you are paying 8 million per WAR you are probably doing it wrong.

Fowler would have to get 13-14 WAR over the course of the 5 years to be a good deal. That is going to be 2.5-3 WAR a year for the course of the deal. If he gets 10 WAR over the 5 years, that is not a good deal. It is a deal that pushes you to the middle of the pact in baseball.
 

chibears55

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I dont think anyone is hating on him except maybe anotheridiot. You think Fowler having that OBP and seeing those pitches are a result of him and not who was behind him? I mean you are going to see a lot of good pitches in the first when you have the MVP and another top 5 MVP behind him. Im guessing you are a Cardinals fan.
Because of what you just said
Wouldn't surprise me if Maddon considers putting Heyward in leadoff spot to see better pitches with Bryant after him...

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