Offseason rumors/discussion thread

Castor76

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So it's all just guessing. Reminds me of when the planets revolved around the sun in perfect circles and we had "proven" it. That's one o the reasons I'm not a huge fan of these metrics.
 

beckdawg

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That still doesn't answer what offensive number balances out unless you're saying a player in the -5 to -10 DRS but a wRC in the 75 to 90 is balanced.

Normally I wouldn't tell people to do this because it's not super scientific or anything but if you just want a some what easy conversion between the loss in DRS to what you would need to gain in wRC+ it's probably something like for every 1 run you lose in DRS you need to gain 2 wRC+. It might be some where between 1.5-2.5 instead and I think it can sort of depend on the circumstances but that's a easy way to look at things.

In other words if you're -10 DRS, in order to be equal value to a 100 wRC+ 0 DRS player you would likely need to hit 120 wRC+. Conversely, if you're +10 DRS you could likely be an 80 wRC+ and be an equal value to that same 100 wRC+ 0 DRS. As I said that's an overly simplistic way to look at thing because it doesn't factor in position scarcity or base running but I think it gets to what you're asking in the very least.
 

Castor76

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But with this
Harper: 135 wRC+ above avg (not quite great) RF -16 awful..damn so above avg drops to poor value. -16 was a aberration though. But it pushes the LF argument where he held a 0 in 2014. over all 2018 might be a outlier as he has hovered around avg and CF/RF tanked.

It does give concern though.

Which is why I'm a fan of 3 year averages. It tends to lessen outlier good or bad years. You could even say it's trending in a direction.
 

CSF77

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I think at the end of the story Heyward holds more value in CF because CF holds more value due to spray charts. That is it. I can buy that more because he lacks the power to be on par with other RF in baseball. As a CF his ability to preven while giving neutral valued O holds more value.

It is a logical way of looking at things. Especially with how lefties are shifted to death now.

Which is why I'm a fan of 3 year averages. It tends to lessen outlier good or bad years. You could even say it's trending in a direction.

A 1 year can be a out lier or it could be a trend. It could be related to injury. With Heyward it looks like he peaked with Stl and now he is in decline earlier than he should have. Which might just be related to starting earlier and wear has set in at a younger age.

Zambrano was the same. Out of baseball at a young age but he started at 19 compiling the innings.

So there are plenty of factors going on and a 3 year avg is a tool but not a rule.
 

beckdawg

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With Heyward it looks like he peaked with Stl and now he is in decline earlier than he should have.

Not really. The difference is he was healthy the entire season in 2015. You have to remember these are counting stats. While it is possible to be amazing in a short period of time, it's more likely that good defenders will accumulate their advantage slowly over games rather than in a big bunch. If you look at his range factor there is a direct correlation between the number of innings played and how high/low it is. And if you look at the RZR portion, he made 142 plays on 155 balls in his zone. The difference between that and 2015 was literally him making 2 more plays. The rate at which he got to balls out of his zone was very similar as well.

That's why you don't view these numbers over small samples. If a guy is hurt and doesn't play a full season and makes one bad play it can largely impact the overall view. But I mean just watch the games. Presumably you did. Did Heyward look any different than 2016/17? For me personally not really. I think you could argue there were a few plays that uncharacteristically ate him up but it wasn't like he suddenly lost a step range wise. I'd also question how much playing 42 games in 44 days hurt. That's 1/4 of the season with no break. If he had just typical stiffness without days off it's easy to see that slowing him down. I mean it's not like the numbers were terrible last year they were just down a little. His third best season in DRS was 2017.

So, it doesn't strike me as him losing anything. Plus I mean he's only 29. He's probably pretty comparable to Cain. Cain who's 3 years older hasn't really fallen off from his prime.
 

CSF77

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Not really. The difference is he was healthy the entire season in 2015. You have to remember these are counting stats. While it is possible to be amazing in a short period of time, it's more likely that good defenders will accumulate their advantage slowly over games rather than in a big bunch. If you look at his range factor there is a direct correlation between the number of innings played and how high/low it is. And if you look at the RZR portion, he made 142 plays on 155 balls in his zone. The difference between that and 2015 was literally him making 2 more plays. The rate at which he got to balls out of his zone was very similar as well.

That's why you don't view these numbers over small samples. If a guy is hurt and doesn't play a full season and makes one bad play it can largely impact the overall view. But I mean just watch the games. Presumably you did. Did Heyward look any different than 2016/17? For me personally not really. I think you could argue there were a few plays that uncharacteristically ate him up but it wasn't like he suddenly lost a step range wise. I'd also question how much playing 42 games in 44 days hurt. That's 1/4 of the season with no break. If he had just typical stiffness without days off it's easy to see that slowing him down. I mean it's not like the numbers were terrible last year they were just down a little. His third best season in DRS was 2017.

So, it doesn't strike me as him losing anything. Plus I mean he's only 29. He's probably pretty comparable to Cain. Cain who's 3 years older hasn't really fallen off from his prime.

I was mostly talking from a hitting perspective.

wRC+
2010: 134
2011: 96
2012: 121
2013: 120
2014: 109
2015: 121
2016: 72
2017: 88
2018: 99

It feels like he peaked early and is in the decline. But he is at 5000 PA right now. 500 ahead of Rizzo.
 

anotheridiot

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Not really. The difference is he was healthy the entire season in 2015. You have to remember these are counting stats. While it is possible to be amazing in a short period of time, it's more likely that good defenders will accumulate their advantage slowly over games rather than in a big bunch. If you look at his range factor there is a direct correlation between the number of innings played and how high/low it is. And if you look at the RZR portion, he made 142 plays on 155 balls in his zone. The difference between that and 2015 was literally him making 2 more plays. The rate at which he got to balls out of his zone was very similar as well.

That's why you don't view these numbers over small samples. If a guy is hurt and doesn't play a full season and makes one bad play it can largely impact the overall view. But I mean just watch the games. Presumably you did. Did Heyward look any different than 2016/17? For me personally not really. I think you could argue there were a few plays that uncharacteristically ate him up but it wasn't like he suddenly lost a step range wise. I'd also question how much playing 42 games in 44 days hurt. That's 1/4 of the season with no break. If he had just typical stiffness without days off it's easy to see that slowing him down. I mean it's not like the numbers were terrible last year they were just down a little. His third best season in DRS was 2017.

So, it doesn't strike me as him losing anything. Plus I mean he's only 29. He's probably pretty comparable to Cain. Cain who's 3 years older hasn't really fallen off from his prime.

I was waiting for the 42 games in 44 days argument to show its ugly face. Are you saying Heyward played in all those games? In the 37 he participated in, the team went 22-15, ending on a 6 game win streak. He was on the DL for the end of it. But if you want to blame anyone for the not getting days off I would start pointing at maddon. A team with 11 position player starters and he cannot find a way to schedule a few days off, most notably, playing him both ends of the double header against st louis 6 games in?

as far as CSF77 comment on peaking in st louis, he peaked the year before free agency. Alot like Fowler who does not show he has much to play for anymore after getting his deal.
 

CSF77

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I was waiting for the 42 games in 44 days argument to show its ugly face. Are you saying Heyward played in all those games? In the 37 he participated in, the team went 22-15, ending on a 6 game win streak. He was on the DL for the end of it. But if you want to blame anyone for the not getting days off I would start pointing at maddon. A team with 11 position player starters and he cannot find a way to schedule a few days off, most notably, playing him both ends of the double header against st louis 6 games in?

as far as CSF77 comment on peaking in st louis, he peaked the year before free agency. Alot like Fowler who does not show he has much to play for anymore after getting his deal.

All I said was cheaper. **** up is a **** up. But at least you have a lead offy
 

beckdawg

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I was waiting for the 42 games in 44 days argument to show its ugly face. Are you saying Heyward played in all those games? In the 37 he participated in, the team went 22-15, ending on a 6 game win streak. He was on the DL for the end of it. But if you want to blame anyone for the not getting days off I would start pointing at maddon. A team with 11 position player starters and he cannot find a way to schedule a few days off, most notably, playing him both ends of the double header against st louis 6 games in?

as far as CSF77 comment on peaking in st louis, he peaked the year before free agency. Alot like Fowler who does not show he has much to play for anymore after getting his deal.

Don't you think the bolded part might be relevant to what I said? The point I was making was that if you're physically active for 40 straight days there's going to be days where you're just stiff. You don't even have to be hurt but if he lays out to grab a ball you can easily bruise something. The next day your not going to run as fast/far. It doesn't mean you are "hurt" but those bumps and bruises add up. Hell the concussion he had was from playing defense last year.

Point here is, my eye test didn't notice him being substantially worse defensively last year. That doesn't match up with the metrics. That leads me to believe there's something in the metrics that isn't being accounted for.
 

beckdawg

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I was mostly talking from a hitting perspective.

wRC+
2010: 134
2011: 96
2012: 121
2013: 120
2014: 109
2015: 121
2016: 72
2017: 88
2018: 99

It feels like he peaked early and is in the decline. But he is at 5000 PA right now. 500 ahead of Rizzo.

See, I think this is drawing the wrong conclusions. I mean I agree with what you're suggesting that essentially his numbers are down since then but I don't agree with the why In fact I'd argue that St. Louis is the reason he is fucked up as a hitter. The thing that stands out to me is the fact 2015 he had a 2.44 GB/FB rate. That isn't good. League average is 1.22. There's some players who can make it work. For example, Yelich is a career 2.88 guy. But typically speaking you want to hit the ball in the air.

As it pertains to Heyward, with the exception of his weird rookie year when he puts the ball in the air he hits the ball harder. If you look at the 3 year "prime" of his career from 2012-2014 in atlanta he was 1.20 , 1.25, and 1.28. You then had that 2.44 year in STL followed by the last three where he's been 1.39, 1.45, and 1.41. However, if you look at the first half of last year he was at 1.13. The second half it went big again at 2.08. First half he hit .285/.344/.431(109 wRC+). Second half he hit .247/.321/.337(82 wRC+). So, I don't think he's peaked as it were. I think there's something that's changed in his swing he's trying to get back to. Basically, if he hits the ball in the air good things happen for him. And even with that bad second half he still posted the third hardest hit rate of his career at 29.7%. Only two better years were that weird 2010 at 38.8% and then 2012 at 34.5%.
 

Castor76

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What level of irony is it that many of us, myself included, want the Cubs to "solve their leadoff problem" yet they had the 2nd highest OBP from leadoff in the majors last year?
 

Diehardfan

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What level of irony is it that many of us, myself included, want the Cubs to "solve their leadoff problem" yet they had the 2nd highest OBP from leadoff in the majors last year?

I think people are looking for the more stereotypical lead off guy....a Kenny Lofton or Maury Wills. I know that's the kind of player that comes to mind when I think leading off. Not a whole lot of those type of guys around anymore....the game has changed. I mean when the Cub's most successful LO guy is Rizzo....
 

CSF77

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See, I think this is drawing the wrong conclusions. I mean I agree with what you're suggesting that essentially his numbers are down since then but I don't agree with the why In fact I'd argue that St. Louis is the reason he is fucked up as a hitter. The thing that stands out to me is the fact 2015 he had a 2.44 GB/FB rate. That isn't good. League average is 1.22. There's some players who can make it work. For example, Yelich is a career 2.88 guy. But typically speaking you want to hit the ball in the air.

As it pertains to Heyward, with the exception of his weird rookie year when he puts the ball in the air he hits the ball harder. If you look at the 3 year "prime" of his career from 2012-2014 in atlanta he was 1.20 , 1.25, and 1.28. You then had that 2.44 year in STL followed by the last three where he's been 1.39, 1.45, and 1.41. However, if you look at the first half of last year he was at 1.13. The second half it went big again at 2.08. First half he hit .285/.344/.431(109 wRC+). Second half he hit .247/.321/.337(82 wRC+). So, I don't think he's peaked as it were. I think there's something that's changed in his swing he's trying to get back to. Basically, if he hits the ball in the air good things happen for him. And even with that bad second half he still posted the third hardest hit rate of his career at 29.7%. Only two better years were that weird 2010 at 38.8% and then 2012 at 34.5%.

I was at a spring game that he homered. His swing mechanic did change from what Mellee forced onto him. I'm guessing that he was more collateral damage from Davis.
 

CSF77

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I think people are looking for the more stereotypical lead off guy....a Kenny Lofton or Maury Wills. I know that's the kind of player that comes to mind when I think leading off. Not a whole lot of those type of guys around anymore....the game has changed. I mean when the Cub's most successful LO guy is Rizzo....

I was kinda milling:

Rizzo
Bryant
Zobrist
Baez
Schwarber
Contreras
Heyward
Almora
 

CSF77

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Albert Almora Jr.: .797 OPS, 117 wRC+ (213 plate appearances)
Ben Zobrist: .810 OPS, 121 wRC+ (140 PAs)
Anthony Rizzo: .979 OPS, 161 wRC+ (138 PAs)
Daniel Murphy: .840 OPS, 125 wRC+ (130 PAs)
 

Castor76

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I think people are looking for the more stereotypical lead off guy....a Kenny Lofton or Maury Wills. I know that's the kind of player that comes to mind when I think leading off. Not a whole lot of those type of guys around anymore....the game has changed. I mean when the Cub's most successful LO guy is Rizzo....

I understand that, but that kind of player just doesn't really exist anymore. While Rizzo was insanely good at LO, he was just under 18% of the PAs at leadoff. So other guys did have good numbers there. Zobrist had an OBP over .370 while in LO.
 

Castor76

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Not saying he won't have a breakthrough, but Schwarber has yet to have a good season hitting with Runner's on. If he were to be traded, and I'm not calling for it, that would be a reason why I could see it happening.

By comparison, Runners On and then RISP over the past 3 seasons, Schwarber has lines of .203/.318./.417 and .168/.331/.345 versus Happ and lines of .255/.354/.406 and .259/.392/.459.

Just something to chew on.
 

JimJohnson

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If our OBP is so good, why do we seem to hit an ungodly amount of solo HRs? I struggle to understand that.
 

Castor76

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If our OBP is so good, why do we seem to hit an ungodly amount of solo HRs? I struggle to understand that.

The Cubs didn't hit a lot of home runs in general. They were 22nd in the majors, probably part of why Davis was let go. They had that same rank in solo homers and were 19th in homers with runners on. They were 9th in total homers last season and 13th in 2016.
 

JimJohnson

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The Cubs didn't hit a lot of home runs in general. They were 22nd in the majors, probably part of why Davis was let go. They had that same rank in solo homers and were 19th in homers with runners on. They were 9th in total homers last season and 13th in 2016.

That I know. What I'm saying is that when they did hit them, they always seem to be solo shots (i.e. no runners on base).
 

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