OT - PHI Extends Fletcher Cox, Most Guaranteed $$ In The NFL For A Non-QB

[gpphat]

I get this feeling that you are posting from a locked room, only getting bits and pieces of the ongoing conversation outside of your locked room, and then chiming in with uninformed observations.

This would make sense when you look at his posting history

 

[Bort]

I actually would have done the same thing, and I didn't like the fact that we re-signed Cutler, especially for so much money.

I am not a Cutler fan.

Nonetheless, the discussion we were having was about whether Cutler is currently overpaid, and I think the answer is clearly no. He's playing like an average starting quarterback and getting paid like an average starting quarterback. Average starting quarterbacks make a lot of money.

I can't believe we've reached the point where the Cutler contract is ok with fans because Cutler has continued to suck/be average for coming up on half a decade and the rest of the NFL has improved and started handing out more money to younger QB's with more potential.


What you are saying it's really true though. It's one thing to say "average QB's get paid that much" but the QB's getting paid that much were signed based on either past performance and or potential. Cutler got paid based on neither really as a 31 year old.

It's one thing for a 26 year old developing QB to under perform a big contract. It's another for a 31 year old with almost zero potential or performance to get that money.

You're judging Cutler on the same career/contract arc as guys like Stafford, Osweiler, Tannehill etc. That's kind of football stupid.

If the Jets handed Fitzpatrick 18 million a year tomorrow and excused it by citing guys like Stafford, Osweiler, Tannehill etc and their salaries I doubt this board would buy it for the reasons I cited above.

You seem to have a very difficult time admitting mistakes.

I made it abundantly clear that I was not OK with Cutler's contract (for the same reasons that you weren't), but that nonetheless his salary is basically commensurate with his performance. You disagreed.

You are now hurling invective and twisting yourself in knots trying to argue tangentially-related points I never disagreed with.

 

[didshereallysaythat]

This would make sense when you look at his posting history

I already apologized for making fun of your picture. I don't know what else I can do to cheer you up.

 

[gpphat]

I already apologized for making fun of your picture. I don't know what else I can do to cheer you up.

it's not me who you need to apologize to, but Rory is right, too many times you have hopped in a discussion and you have no idea what is being discussed

 

[FirstTimer]

I made it abundantly clear that I was not OK with Cutler's contract (for the same reasons that you weren't), but that nonetheless his salary is basically commensurate with his performance.

Except it's not because you're then treating the situations around the contract as equal. They aren't. No one can name another 31 year old QB whose performance was similar to Cutler's who got paid like he did. It's never happened.

I could name tons of young QB's who have gotten large contracts based on potential or performance/trends.

You're treating The Dolphins betting the high side of Ryan Tannehill's development after a season in which he played 16 games at the age of 25 and had improved for three straight seasons, or the Lions paying Stafford one season removed from a 5,000 yard 41 TD 16INT season at the age of 25, and averaging that money against a 31 year old Cutler getting 7 years $126 million after missing half the year and never having a season with a passer rating over 90 as equal or similar. They aren't.

Jay Cutler's not getting paid commensurate to his performance compared to other $18 million dollar QB's because he's never performed to their level in one way and/or another and doesn't have the same long term growth potential as them.

The average NFL QB salary isn't rising because of contracts being given to players like Cutler(31 year old career average performers. Little to no resume). It's rising because of contracts given to players like Stafford, Tannehill, Osweiler, Flacco, Ryan, Eli, Rodgers, Rivers, Manning, Brady, Romo, etc So you treating Cutler's contract as acceptable or excusable or "par for the course in the NFL" because it's similar money wise to those is ridiculous.

You're 100% wrong here. Not me.

 

[didshereallysaythat]

Except it's not because you're then treating the situations around the contract as equal. They aren't. No one can name another 31 year old QB whose performance was similar to Cutler's who got paid like he did. It's never happened.

I could name tons of young QB's who have gotten large contracts based on potential or performance/trends.

You're treating The Dolphins betting the high side of Ryan Tannehill's development after a season in which he played 16 games at the age of 25 and had improved for three straight seasons, or the Lions paying Stafford one season removed from a 5,000 yard 41 TD 16INT season at the age of 25, and averaging that money against Cutler getting 7 years $126 million after missing half the year and never having a season with a passer rating over 90 as equal or similar. They aren't.

Jay Cutler's not getting paid commiserate to his performance compared to other $18 million dollar QB's because he's never performed to their level in one way and/or another and doesn't have the same long term growth potential as them.

The average NFL QB salary isn't rising because of contracts being given to players like Cutler(31 year old career average performers. Little to no resume). It's rising because of contracts given to players like Stafford, Tannehill, Osweiler, Flacco, Ryan, Eli, Rodgers, Rivers, Manning, Brady, Romo, etc So you treating Cutler's contract as acceptable or excusable or "par for the course in the NFL" because it's similar money wise to those is ridiculous.

You're 100% wrong here. Not me.

It sounds to me like you are arguing the reason behind Cutler getting the contract as being flawed. That would be correct. It was wrong for the Bears to think that an average QB at age 31 who has been average to marginally better than average for several years to all of a sudden turn into a star. It would be more acceptable for a 25 year old QB who played average and was improving in his rookie contract to be given the deal. But once the Bears (incorrectly) thought that Cutler was their franchise guy, they have him what is considered to be around the going rate for someone who put up average numbers in the years prior.

 

[FirstTimer]

It would be more acceptable for a 25 year old QB who played average and was improving in his rookie contract to be given the deal. But once the Bears (incorrectly) thought that Cutler was their franchise guy, they have him what is considered to be around the going rate for someone who put up average numbers in the years prior.

That's completely incorrect.

I repeat again: Stafford got his mega deal a season removed from a 41 TD 16 INT 5000 yard season.

Jesus Christ, just quit posting.

They didn't give Cutler "average" production money. When the Cutler was signed he was getting elite QB money. Even now when people want to point out other QB's he's similar to in salary. It makes zero sense because guys like Stafford and Tannehill have already out performed him before getting similar money. Stafford and Tannehill didn't get money to regress to Cutler numbers. They got paid what Cutler is getting paid now to either keep producing at an elite or near elite level or continue to progress from good or well above average to very good/elite.

Every year there are high paid QB's who fall off a bit and under perform their salary. Same as their are under paid QB's who rise and over perform. It's kind of stupid to compare Cutler only to the high end of guys making money who have fallen off when I can easily turn around and point out guys who made a fraction of what Cutler does and on a year to year basis rise up and perform to his level. One of them is the current #2 QB on the roster.

You're shrugging your shoudlers saying "Well, it's ok for Cutler to be average because his salary kind of falls in the middle of NFL QB salaries" when that ignores the fact that Cutler has never given you the peak or potential argument for the guys around him. Cutler is making big money without ever having really performed in a way to earn it or given the Bears the long term hope at the position even before he was given the deal in 2013/14. It's not the same case.

 

[didshereallysaythat]

That's completely incorrect.

I repeat again: Stafford got his mega deal a season removed from a 41 TD 16 INT 5000 yard season.

Jesus Christ, just quit posting.

They didn't give Cutler "average" production money. When the Cutler was signed he was getting elite QB money. Even now when people want to point out other QB's he's similar to in salary. It makes zero sense because guys like Stafford and Tannehill have already out performed him before getting similar money. Stafford and Tannehill didn't get money to regress to Cutler numbers. They got paid what Cutler is getting paid now to either keep producing at an elite or near elite level or continue to progress from good or well above average to very good/elite.

Every year there are high paid QB's who fall off a bit and under perform their salary. Same as their are under paid QB's who rise and over perform. It's kind of stupid to compare Cutler only to the high end of guys making money who have fallen off when I can easily turn around and point out guys who made a fraction of what Cutler does and on a year to year basis rise up and perform to his level. One of them is the current #2 QB on the roster.

You're shrugging your shoudlers saying "Well, it's ok for Cutler to be average because his salary kind of falls in the middle of NFL QB salaries" when that ignores the fact that Cutler has never given you the peak or potential argument for the guys around him. Cutler is making big money without ever having really performed in a way to earn it or given the Bears the long term hope at the position even before he was given the deal in 2013/14. It's not the same case.

Osweiler got "elite" money too for average performance. The salaries of QBs (and even other positions now) are exponentially growing to where QBs that put up average stats as a starter are getting paid like crazy in hopes that they develop into a star. It's a QB hungry driven league.

 

[didshereallysaythat]

Also, no one is saying that it is ok for Cutler to be average because he gets paid like an average QB.

 

[FirstTimer]

Osweiler got "elite" money too for average performance.

What?!

Osweiler got paid elite money because he's 25 years old and showed some very good potential on a SB winning team.

Why in God's name would you make that comparison?

 

[didshereallysaythat]

What?!

Osweiler got paid elite money because he's 25 years old and showed some very good potential on a SB winning team.

Why in God's name would you make that comparison?

You don't get the point. If a team feels that the QB is a FRANCHISE QB, they will pay him elite money.

 

[FirstTimer]

Also, no one is saying that it is ok for Cutler to be average because he gets paid like an average QB.

Modo did earlier in this very thread.

Stop posting.

 

[Bort]

Except it's not because you're then treating the situations around the contract as equal. They aren't. No one can name another 31 year old QB whose performance was similar to Cutler's who got paid like he did. It's never happened.

I could name tons of young QB's who have gotten large contracts based on potential or performance/trends.

You're treating The Dolphins betting the high side of Ryan Tannehill's development after a season in which he played 16 games at the age of 25 and had improved for three straight seasons, or the Lions paying Stafford one season removed from a 5,000 yard 41 TD 16INT season at the age of 25, and averaging that money against a 31 year old Cutler getting 7 years $126 million after missing half the year and never having a season with a passer rating over 90 as equal or similar. They aren't.

Jay Cutler's not getting paid commiserate to his performance compared to other $18 million dollar QB's because he's never performed to their level in one way and/or another and doesn't have the same long term growth potential as them.

The average NFL QB salary isn't rising because of contracts being given to players like Cutler(31 year old career average performers. Little to no resume). It's rising because of contracts given to players like Stafford, Tannehill, Osweiler, Flacco, Ryan, Eli, Rodgers, Rivers, Manning, Brady, Romo, etc So you treating Cutler's contract as acceptable or excusable or "par for the course in the NFL" because it's similar money wise to those is ridiculous.

You're 100% wrong here. Not me.

The problem is that I never made any of the statements or arguments that you're attributing to me.

I agree with you that Cutler's contract was dumb. I thought it was dumb at the time, and I still think it was dumb. It's dumb to give a 31 year old average player that much money.

Nonetheless, as we sit here in 2016, the market price for an average NFL quarterback has increased so much that Cutler's salary is almost exactly equal to the median starting NFL quarterback salary.

Whether it was more or less reasonable for the Dolphins to give Tannehill a huge contract or for the Lions to give Stafford a huge contract is a totally separate issue that I never broached.

Learn to admit mistakes and let things go sometimes. You'll live a happier life that way.

 

[FirstTimer]

You don't get the point. If a team feels that the QB is a FRANCHISE QB, they will pay him elite money.

That's NOT the point of this discussion. It's if Cutler is getting the "going rate" for a QB. He's not. The guys making $18 million a year don't have career arcs similar to Cutler relative to when they got paid that money. The going rate for a 31 year old QB with 1 Pro Bowl, 1 playoff appearance, lead the league in turnovers or INT's multiple times, and a passer rating never over 90 is not $18 million a year.

 

[FirstTimer]

Nonetheless, as we sit here in 2016, the market price for an average NFL quarterback has increased so much that Cutler's salary is almost exactly equal to the median starting NFL quarterback salary.

But it's not the "going rate" for a QB with Cutler's career arc dumb shit..which is the entire point of the discussion.

It's if Cutler is getting the "going rate" for a QB. He's not. The guys making $18 million a year don't have career arcs similar to Cutler relative to when they got paid that money. The going rate for a 31 year old QB with 1 Pro Bowl, 1 playoff appearance, lead the league in turnovers or INT's multiple times, and never having a passer rating never over 90 is not $18 million a year.


Either learn to understand the discussion or stop taking part in it.

 

[didshereallysaythat]

That's NOT the point of this discussion. It's if Cutler is getting the "going rate" for a QB. He's not. The guys making $18 million a year don't have career arcs similar to Cutler relative to when they got paid that money. The going rate for a 31 year old QB with 1 Pro Bowl, 1 playoff appearance, lead the league in turnovers or INT's multiple times, and a passer rating never over 90 is not $18 million a year.

This is getting comical. I gotta stop reading your shit because I can't stop laughing out loud at work.

 

[didshereallysaythat]

You would think that people would understand a simple concept of what the going rate of a contract/salary is. Oh well.

 

[Bort]

But it's not the "going rate" for a QB with Cutler's career arc dumb shit..which is the entire point of the discussion.

It's if Cutler is getting the "going rate" for a QB. He's not. The guys making $18 million a year don't have career arcs similar to Cutler relative to when they got paid that money. The going rate for a 31 year old QB with 1 Pro Bowl, 1 playoff appearance, lead the league in turnovers or INT's multiple times, and a passer rating never over 90 is not $18 million a year.


Either learn to understand the discussion or stop taking part in it.

You get really mad when you're wrong, don't you?

 

[Bronze65]

http://overthecap.com/position/quarterback/

Looks like Cutler's getting the "going rate" to me.

 

[FirstTimer]

This is getting comical. I gotta stop reading your shit because I can't stop laughing out loud at work.

I thought the guys in the suits at Chuck E Cheese were supposed to laugh?