Rabbi supports ground zero mosque

[PatrickSharpRules]

[quote name="bubbleheadchief"]

Where as I dont agree with you that all wars are bullshit, I firmly believe the 91 gulf war was justified, and sorry, I dont believe the conspiracy theory crap about "we did 9/11 to our own", our government has done really dumb things, but I can not believe that one. and if Bush the 2nd was a dumbass, then so were several other member countries of NATO for believing the intel they were fed.

How the **** can you say you are considered a lesser american for voicing your own views?? Frame your own opinion and scream it out. So fucing what, freedom of speech. Christ I am active duty, think our president is a fucking idiot, the Dem congress has already raised my sons taxes to astronomical levels that he wont be able to afford when he is of job working age and have no idea why we are still in Iraq, But I firmly believe in my country and excuse the **** out of me for waving the flag, this country has provided for me and mine for a couple or three generations now, and I am paying that back by wearing the Unifrom Of the United States Navy. And if one of these duties is going overseas to fight in an unpopular war, so be it.[/quote]

Well I'm not making it up, I've been in numerous arguments which involve patriotism and since I am generally on the side against what the government is doing it usually ends in how I don't like America, or should move somewhere else. I love this country and think we do a hell of a lot of good, but the shit that gets publicity is usually all bad. I myself don't see the point of all the flag waving, I guess its kind of like wearing a Hawks jersey, but where all in the same country, everyone knows me and you are American. To me its kind of like prayer, whole lot of talking and show, but its getting absolutely nothing done. And I'm glad your serving our country right now that is something I could not do. When a guy like Dick Cheney was one of the head beatoffs in charge of these two wars and he asked for 5 draft deferments to get out of Vietnam, there's just no way I could go die for someone like that.



And I also don't believe in conspiracy theories, especially 9/11. And I know people consider the Gulf War a war but come on? We lost more men on Peleliu in WWII in one day than the Gulf War. I know its really not comparable, but when you look at the Iraqi death tolls it should be called the The United States Pounding Iraq in the Ass War.

 

[winos5]

[quote name="Variable"]



Pearl Harbor was pretty much allowed to happen. I don't even really see how there can be an argument against that anymore. 9/11 has got some HUGE fucking questions as to what the hell happened (that won't ever be answered) and how it happened. The government doesn't really care about you. That's about as plain as it can be said. We are expendable if need be. If it helps further an agenda, so be it. War is the best business to be in as long as you're not involved with the actual fighting. Even when you look at WWII and you start digging deeper into it, stuff like American banks financing the rise of the Nazi party, stuff like that really makes you question what the hell is going on.[/quote]



I'd go for the foil hat now, before you start questioning the historical accuracy of the holocaust....

 

[E Runs]

[quote name="Kerfuffle"]



No they don't!! I can't believe the crap being tossed around here. Think about all our military that has died in 7 years of war and the 3000 we lost on 9/11 before saying they have a right to build a tropy at Ground Zero.[/quote]

So in other words the Constitution need only apply when it supports your own beliefs?

 

[E Runs]

[quote name="roshinaya"]Ah please, the fighting for freedom BS. At no point in time were the freedoms of the average American under any threat.[/quote]

Ironic that our government actually rescinds the freedoms of it's own populace when defending "our freedoms" isn't it?

 

[TSD]

[quote name="Variable"]





This is a good illustration of one of our big problems. No where in my post did I say I believe the government was behind everything. All I said was that there is a lot of unanswered questions. And you went automatically to the conclusion that I am crazy. You can't even raise a question, a doubt without being labled something and that's good for no one. It becomes a roadblock. No matter who you choose to believe on this topic, you are choosing to believe in a conspiracy theory. Remember that.[/quote]



Some dudes flew planes into some buildings, terrorists claimed responsibility....wheres the questions? Wheres the conspiracy theory? What questions exactly do you have?



How did they get on the planes maybe? Different world, AFTER 9/11 i went to visit family in Kentucky, I got on the plane with a pocket knife with a 3inch blade (it was an accident, it was attached to my keychain I forgot about it) they must have not even noticed when i put my keys in the bucket.



Secondly, we have the phone calls people made from the flights to family. They said themselves terrorists took over the planes. I just dont see what questions you could possibly have.



Unless again you are implying that they "let" it happen. I can't even comment on that. I am not any intelligence expert, I was in the signal corps in the Army (I got and still hold a SECRET government clearance from that).



Anywho, the idea the government knew the who, what, when and where with the 9/11 attacks, is an assumption. Based on what? That they knew an attack might occur? that doesnt mean they knew enough details to actually prevent it.



As for your comment re: american banks financing the Nazi party....your point? There were nazi's in America at the time, still are, maybe those making decisions at the banks were Nazi sympathizers. Everything isn't some conspiracy. People are free to believe/support whatever they want and if some CEO was a Nazi thats his decision I guess.



I am not blinding myself, or ignoring things, i am basing my viewpoint on the facts at hand.



I am well aware that my country has done some down right evil things that are counter-intuitive to the idea of freedom, but so has every country to serve their own ends in the interest of the nation and or an entity of the nation.



It's the nature of the beast, there is no utopian perfectly moral government on the face of this earth and there never will be.



As long as Agencies like the CIA, KGB, MI6, etc etc etc are allowed to exist and classify their activites, clandesdine imperialism will continue to go on under the nose of the general public.

 

[sth]

Guess what there already is a Mosque four blocks from ground zero and its been there for forty years.



http://www.nowpublic.com/culture/40...caught-ground-zero-mosque-debate-2649279.html

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

[quote name="sth"]Guess what there already is a Mosque four blocks from ground zero and its been there for forty years.



http://www.nowpublic.com/culture/40...caught-ground-zero-mosque-debate-2649279.html[/quote]



How dare they be allowed to keep their "trophies" up after 9/11!

 

[Kerfuffle]

I'm ashamed that some of you here call yourselves Americans and are actually advocating on behalf of this mosque. You have short term memories and don't remember the pain of 9/11 and what they did to us. That lackadaiscal attitude is what they counting on for another attack. At what point do you stand up and say no to this? When we are all living under Sharia law? Unbelievable and extremely insensitive to the victims.

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

[quote name="Kerfuffle"]I'm ashamed that some of you here call yourselves Americans and are actually advocating on behalf of this mosque. You have short term memories and don't remember the pain of 9/11 and what they did to us. That lackadaiscal attitude is what they counting on for another attack. At what point do you stand up and say no to this? When we are all living under Sharia law? Unbelievable and extremely insensitive to the victims.[/quote]



The innocent people in Afghanistan/Iraq are victims as well. I don't see ANYONE being incentive. You are being intolerant saying they shouldn't be allowed to erect a temple because of it's proximity to ground zero.



Oh well, I guess all Muslims who pray to Allah want to kill all Americans because they are all infidels and an enemy to Allah!!!!!!!!!! Therefore, they shouldn't be able to build a church where they please.



Islam teaches peace, compassion and love just like Christianity. There are just some extremist idiots who take the Qu'ran in a totally different direction than it was intended.

 

[Kerfuffle]

[quote name="Stu Grimson"]

The innocent people in Afghanistan/Iraq are victims as well. I don't see ANYONE being incentive. You are being intolerant saying they shouldn't be allowed to erect a temple because of it's proximity to ground zero.



Oh well, I guess all Muslims who pray to Allah want to kill all Americans because they are all infidels and an enemy to Allah!!!!!!!!!! Therefore, they shouldn't be able to build a church where they please.



Islam teaches peace, compassion and love just like Christianity. There are just some extremist idiots who take the Qu'ran in a totally different direction than it was intended.[/quote]

That's right - I don't want a mosque on ground zero to serve as their trophy symbol. Are you aware that the Iman in charge of that mosque has said some pretty hateful rhetoric about the US - and in line with the jihad extremists? And he's the guy in charge of the thing. Also, when is the last time you saw a Muslim community or leader condemning terrorism or the 9/11 attacks? I've been waiting for 9 years to see just one of these examples of peace and love that you mentioned. You want them to have a mosque - fine build it 5 miles away. It doesnt' have to be at Ground Zero.



Another thing - it will be interesting to see if any construction crew actually will accept the contract to build this mosque. There will be protests and violence that occur around it and no company will not want to be involved with it.

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

[quote name="Kerfuffle"]

That's right - I don't want a mosque on ground zero to serve as their trophy symbol. Are you aware that the Iman in charge of that mosque has said some pretty hateful rhetoric about the US - and in line with the jihad extremists? And he's the guy in charge of the thing. Also, when is the last time you saw a Muslim community or leader condemning terrorism or the 9/11 attacks? I've been waiting for 9 years to see just one of these examples of peace and love that you mentioned. You want them to have a mosque - fine build it 5 miles away. It doesnt' have to be at Ground Zero.



Another thing - it will be interesting to see if any construction crew actually will accept the contract to build this mosque. There will be protests and violence that occur around it and no company will not want to be involved with it.[/quote]



Well it might be contracted out to one of the Muslim countries. I can't remember if Islamic Temples are built over in their respective countries and flown over here like how India does with the Hindu Temples.



It being in New York, I'm sure they will be able to find some company to do it.

 

[LordKOTL]

[quote name="Kerfuffle"]Also, when is the last time you saw a Muslim community or leader condemning terrorism or the 9/11 attacks? I've been waiting for 9 years to see just one of these examples of peace and love that you mentioned. [/quote]



About the last time you saw a catholic community leader condemning the acts of pedophile priests.



Don't look at religious leaders of any religion; they're the ones causing most of the problems. But the fact remains, the US Constitution gauren-damn-tees the right to pratice whatever religion you want to, and if that mosque has the land, permeits, and all that, it has the right to be there. We can't simply say that we're going to write Islam out of the religiouns covered by the 1st amendment just because some extremists did a terrorist attack. What's next? Banning Baptists because of the deplorable acts of the Westboro Baptist church? Banning Mormons because some don't agree with Polygamy?



I'm sorry Maybe I'm un-american, but I think the hate belongs to the perpetrators of 9/11, not those that share the same religion. That religion has as much right to be in this Country as the religion you practice--it says so in the constitution. And if you want to abridge the rights of freedoms just because it's unpopular, then YOU are the one who's unamerican.



And if you still find me unamerican?



Do Svidaniya, Tovarish!

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

Oh and about condemning the attacks:



http://islam.about.com/cs/currentevents ... ements.htm

The Chairman of Saudi Arabia's Supreme Judicial Council summarized that, "Islam rejects such acts, since it forbids killing of civilians even during times of war, especially if they are not part of the fighting. A religion that views people of the world in such a way cannot in any sense condone such criminal acts, which require that their perpetrators and those who support them are held accountable. As a human community we have to be vigilant and careful to preempt these evils."

Shaykh Muhammed Sayyid al-Tantawi, imam of al-Azhar mosque in Cairo, Egypt:

“Attacking innocent people is not courageous, it is stupid and will be punished on the day of judgement. ... It’s not courageous to attack innocent children, women and civilians. It is courageous to protect freedom, it is courageous to defend oneself and not to attack.”

‘Abdulaziz bin ‘Abdallah Al-Ashaykh, chief mufti of Saudi Arabia:

“Firstly: the recent developments in the United States including hijacking planes, terrorizing innocent people and shedding blood, constitute a form of injustice that cannot be tolerated by Islam, which views them as gross crimes and sinful acts. Secondly: any Muslim who is aware of the teachings of his religion and who adheres to the directives of the Holy Qur'an and the sunnah (the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad) will never involve himself in such acts, because they will invoke the anger of God Almighty and lead to harm and corruption on earth.”

Shaikh Saleh Al-Luheidan, Chairman of the Supreme Judicial Council, Saudi Arabia:

"As a human community we must be vigilant and careful to oppose these pernicious and shameless evils, which are not justified by any sane logic, nor by the religion of Islam."

Shaikh Muhammad Yusuf Islahi, Pakistani-American Muslim leader:

“The sudden barbaric attack on innocent citizens living in peace is extremely distressing and deplorable. Every gentle human heart goes out to the victims of this attack and as humans we are ashamed at the barbarism perpetrated by a few people. Islam, which is a religion of peace and tolerance, condemns this act and sees this is as a wounding scar on the face of humanity. I appeal to Muslims to strongly condemn this act, express unity with the victims' relatives, donate blood, money and do whatever it takes to help the affected people.”

 

[Tater]

[quote name="Stu Grimson"]



Well it might be contracted out to one of the Muslim countries. I can't remember if Islamic Temples are built over in their respective countries and flown over here like how India does with the Hindu Temples.



It being in New York, I'm sure they will be able to find some company to do it.[/quote]



As strong as the unions are in N.Y., I imagine there would be a huge uproar if they did try to fly people here to build it.

I could really see that getting ugly.

 

[E Runs]

[quote name="Kerfuffle"]I'm ashamed that some of you here call yourselves Americans and are actually advocating on behalf of this mosque. You have short term memories and don't remember the pain of 9/11 and what they did to us. That lackadaiscal attitude is what they counting on for another attack. At what point do you stand up and say no to this? When we are all living under Sharia law? Unbelievable and extremely insensitive to the victims.[/quote]

And I'm ashamed that you only want Constitutional righs upheld as long as they align with your beliefs.

 

[PatrickSharpRules]

[quote name="Kerfuffle"]I'm ashamed that some of you here call yourselves Americans and are actually advocating on behalf of this mosque. You have short term memories and don't remember the pain of 9/11 and what they did to us. That lackadaiscal attitude is what they counting on for another attack. At what point do you stand up and say no to this? When we are all living under Sharia law? Unbelievable and extremely insensitive to the victims.[/quote]

BubbleheadChief^^^



Prime example of someone who thinks their MORE American cause I think it wouldn't be a problem to have a mosque there. Thank you Kerfuffle :clap: :clap:

 

[puckjim]

[quote name="E Runs"]

And I'm ashamed that you only want Constitutional righs upheld as long as they align with your beliefs.[/quote]



Ashamed, but not surprised, I'm sure.



Bigotry is alive and well at IHN. So is ignorance.

 

[JOVE23]

[quote name="roshinaya"]



Let it come, let all your right winged furor rain upon the godless heathen from the socialist hellhole known as Finland. Spare me the "we saved your ass from the Nazi's" crap, that's old hat by now.[/quote]



How about, "The Nazis and Simo Hayha saved you from the Commies?"

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

[quote name="JOVE23"]



How about, "The Nazis and Simo Hayha saved you from the Commies?"[/quote]



He had a good kill/death ratio...

 

[MassHavoc]

I don't really want to get into this, but after reading through some of it, I think it's a HUGE disservice to characterize a multi-national, hugely funded, well armed, and trained terrorist network as a couple of a nutjobs who flew a plane into a couple of towers. On top of that, I'm tired of people thinking that that day was just about those two towers. There were several other plans, and it was a coordinated attack unlike any this generation has we've seen on the mainland. One with at least 15 - 20 directly involved and who knows how many helping coordinate and fund it....



but yeah, just a couple of nutjobs.