Rabbi supports ground zero mosque

[bubbleheadchief]

[quote name="TSD"]





The Hiroshima example is a little different. A better comparrison would be this, If a bunch of catholic protestors bombed an abortion clinic killing everyone inside, would people be clamoring against a chruch being built next door? I doubt it.



Its just the fact the majority in this country are christian. if a neighborhood in Iraq was obliterated by a terrorist bomb I dont they would have a problem with a mosque being erected on the site. Now say the Americans Liquidated a town in Iraq, then some group wanted to build a church there, Im pretty sure there would be some pissed off Iraqi's.



Its all a matter of perception. its hard for people in america that are not islamic not to see all of islam as the enemy. Just like its difficult for muslims that are currently affected by the two wars not to see the christian west as the enemy.[/quote]

I altered my reply proior to you hitting send on this. I dont want any kind of religious monument or building of any denomination built on or near ground zero.

 

[TSD]

[quote name="bubbleheadchief"]

I altered my reply proior to you hitting send on this. I dont want any kind of religious monument or building of any denomination built on or near ground zero.[/quote]





I mean for the most part I do actually agree with the idea the mosque near ground zero is in bad taste. I more or less dont agree with the sensationalist and hateful reasons people give for not wanting to allow it.





Like their all terrorists and dont deserve it, or OMG its their victory trophy!



Saying it may be insensitive is good enough as a reason. People dont need to go around saying what horrible people all muslims are.

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

[quote name="TSD"]





I mean for the most part I do actually agree with the idea the mosque near ground zero is in bad taste. I more or less dont agree with the sensationalist and hateful reasons people give for not wanting to allow it.





Like their all terrorists and dont deserve it, or OMG its their victory trophy!



Saying it may be insensitive is good enough as a reason. People dont need to go around saying what horrible people all muslims are.[/quote]



Exordium Surah:



In the name of God (Allah), the compassionate, the merciful.

Praise be to God, Lord of the Worlds.

The compassionate, the merciful.

Master of Judgment Day.

You alone we worship, and to You alone we pray for help.

Guide us to the straight path.

The path of those whom You have favored.

Not of those who have incurred Your wrath, nor of those who have gone astray.



This is the first chapter in the Qu'ran, doesn't really look like God supports killing innocent people to me. As I've said, contemporary Islam is very similar to Christianity in the morals area.



Islam is a religion founded on peace... not killing and the form of "Jihad" we're seeing today.



But I agree with all sentiments of building a Mosque might be in bad taste... however that shouldn't be a preventative hurdle for the Muslims who do want that Mosque.

 

[LordKOTL]

[quote name="TSD"]





The Hiroshima example is a little different. A better comparrison would be this, If a bunch of catholic protestors bombed an abortion clinic killing everyone inside, would people be clamoring against a chruch being built next door? I doubt it.



Its just the fact the majority in this country are christian. if a neighborhood in Iraq was obliterated by a terrorist bomb I dont they would have a problem with a mosque being erected on the site. Now say the Americans Liquidated a town in Iraq, then some group wanted to build a church there, Im pretty sure there would be some pissed off Iraqi's.



Its all a matter of perception. its hard for people in america that are not islamic not to see all of islam as the enemy. Just like its difficult for muslims that are currently affected by the two wars not to see the christian west as the enemy.



Its a scary thought, but I am willing to bet following 9/11 if a vote was taken of the populace in favor of interning all peoples of arab descent, i am willing to bet the majority would have favored it. Its amazing how an experience like this can drive perminent hate for an entire group of people. Whats worse is parents on both sides are espousing this hateful rhetoric in front of their children creating a whole new generation that is going to have the exact same problems.[/quote]

See Also: Manzanar.



And I agree: Judge the person based on the person themselves, not the groups they identify with.



And for my perspective, religion is a lot like masturbation, everyone does it, but it shouldn't be a public spectacle and no one can really say that someone else is doing it wrong as long as it gets you off.

 

[bubbleheadchief]

[quote name="TSD"]





I mean for the most part I do actually agree with the idea the mosque near ground zero is in bad taste. I more or less dont agree with the sensationalist and hateful reasons people give for not wanting to allow it.





Like their all terrorists and dont deserve it, or OMG its their victory trophy!



Saying it may be insensitive is good enough as a reason. People dont need to go around saying what horrible people all muslims are.[/quote]

Never said that, never will.



I will however take exception to someone saying that American's brought down terrorism on their head by going out and acting like douches in other countries. And then some ass-hat say "I am not going to explain myself to you because you are in the military and obviously have been brainwashed by the system." **** off. I am going to go celebrate the new shiney medal I just got for eating three more babies.

 

[TSD]

[quote name="Stu Grimson"]



Exordium Surah:



In the name of God (Allah), the compassionate, the merciful.

Praise be to God, Lord of the Worlds.

The compassionate, the merciful.

Master of Judgment Day.

You alone we worship, and to You alone we pray for help.

Guide us to the straight path.

The path of those whom You have favored.

Not of those who have incurred Your wrath, nor of those who have gone astray.



This is the first chapter in the Qu'ran, doesn't really look like God supports killing innocent people to me. As I've said, contemporary Islam is very similar to Christianity in the morals area.



Islam is a religion founded on peace... not killing and the form of "Jihad" we're seeing today.



But I agree with all sentiments of building a Mosque might be in bad taste... however that shouldn't be a preventative hurdle for the Muslims who do want that Mosque.[/quote]





Alot of this may have to do with the word "jihad" itself. It does appear in the Qu'ran. The thing is jihad means struggle, and today its been associated with "holy war".



and most laypeople in America think holy war is a literal translation of Jihad, So terrorists for some reason think jihad means they should blow shit it up, jihad can also mean peaceful protest. you can take struggle to mean whatever the hell you want, and you can do the same shit with the bible. Thats a problem with religion in general not just islam, there will be people that say insert religion here is peaceful while others can rightly find rhetoric they can use to mean they should exterminate everyone else on the planet.



Just like people in general theres good ones and bad ones, you cant hate em all. If a woman gets raped does that warrant a hatred for all men? If A mexican guy mugs you are all mexicans criminals? i could go on.

 

[TSD]

[quote name="bubbleheadchief"]

Never said that, never will.



I will however take exception to someone saying that American's brought down terrorism on their head by going out and acting like douches in other countries. And then some ass-hat say "I am not going to explain myself to you because you are in the military and obviously have been brainwashed by the system." **** off. I am going to go celebrate the new shiney medal I just got for eating three more babies.[/quote]





I would agree (I was in the military as well). We havent acted anymore like douches than any other country in the history of the world and that includes middle eastern states. We just happen to get more press and criticism.

 

[jaxhawksfan]

Rosh, serious question (maybe not today, but think about 8-10 years ago):



Do you think for one second that if the USA wanted to rule the world that anyone could stop us? If we wanted all the oil we would take it. If we wanted all the other resources we would take it. I'm sick of hearing the 'USA wants to rule the world' shit, or your Manifest Destiny crap.

 

[MassHavoc]

[quote name="jaxhawksfan"]Rosh, serious question (maybe not today, but think about 8-10 years ago):



Do you think for one second that if the USA wanted to rule the world that anyone could stop us? If we wanted all the oil we would take it. If we wanted all the other resources we would take it. I'm sick of hearing the 'USA wants to rule the world' shit, or your Manifest Destiny crap.[/quote]

I think if it was just us with no allies against the rest of the world? We'd lose.

 

[roshinaya]

[quote name="TSD"]

I would agree (I was in the military as well). We havent acted anymore like douches than any other country in the history of the world and that includes middle eastern states. We just happen to get more press and criticism.[/quote]



But saying that you haven't acted anymore like douches than any other country, doesn't make it anymore OK, does it?

 

[winos5]

If the Islamic soceity funding the mosque legally owns the land/building, and the zoning allows for that type of building, and they have the proper permits, then what if anything can prevent them from building it?



Personally I would love to see it built with a public monument inside the grounds, just so a few thousand infadels a day could pass through the holy ground and spit on it, thats just me though...

 

[jaxhawksfan]

[quote name="MassHavoc"]

I think if it was just us with no allies against the rest of the world? We'd lose.[/quote]



Yes, when phrased as the world vs. the USA I think you are correct. I'm talking strategically pickiing off one or two countries at a time so we can steal all their shit.

 

[roshinaya]

[quote name="jaxhawksfan"]Rosh, serious question (maybe not today, but think about 8-10 years ago):



Do you think for one second that if the USA wanted to rule the world that anyone could stop us? If we wanted all the oil we would take it. If we wanted all the other resources we would take it. I'm sick of hearing the 'USA wants to rule the world' shit, or your Manifest Destiny crap.[/quote]



That's some school yard crap right there.."my dad could beat up your dad, neener neener". Sick of hearing about "USA wants to rule the world" shit? Then stop acting like you could take on the world. You pretty much have already culturally taken over the world. I'm a fan of a hockey team in a hockey league I find more entertaining than my own countries league for fucks sake.

 

[bubbleheadchief]

[quote name="roshinaya"]



But saying that you haven't acted anymore like douches than any other country, doesn't make it anymore OK, does it?[/quote]

And because it's not right for anyone to act like a ******, we brought terrorism down on our heads???



And Mass, you're right, if we took on the rest of the world, by ourselves, and didn't use the nukes, we would lose, bad.

 

[roshinaya]

[quote name="jaxhawksfan"]



Yes, when phrased as the world vs. the USA I think you are correct. I'm talking strategically pickiing off one or two countries at a time so we can steal all their shit.[/quote]



Judging by the clusterfuck in Iraq, I wouldn't be too confident.

 

[jaxhawksfan]

[quote name="roshinaya"]



That's some school yard crap right there.."my dad could beat up your dad, neener neener". Sick of hearing about "USA wants to rule the world" shit? Then stop acting like you could take on the world. You pretty much have already culturally taken over the world. I'm a fan of a hockey team in a hockey league I find more entertaining than my own countries league for fucks sake.[/quote]



You didn't answer the question. And secondly, you also missed the point. The USA doesn't own the world and all its shit. We practice a helluva lot of restraint if you ask me. Now, you could say that it is due to the fact that we only want to get involved when there is money or power in it for us, in which case I would agree for the most part.

 

[jaxhawksfan]

[quote name="roshinaya"]



Judging by the clusterfuck in Iraq, I wouldn't be too confident. [/quote]



Iraq and Afghanistan are poorly mismanaged because we don't allow our military to do what they are trained to do. I said 8-10 years ago, remember? Back when we let soldiers kill people without being shot at. Back when we shot first and asked questions later. Back when we would drop fucking bombs all over the place and level it like a fucking playground. You know, real war stuff, not the police bullshit they are forcing the military to do now.

 

[TSD]

[quote name="roshinaya"]



But saying that you haven't acted anymore like douches than any other country, doesn't make it anymore OK, does it?[/quote]





No but its the nature of the beast.



This peaceful utopia on earth where we are all friends will most likely never exist until we find an enemy among the stars.



Sure the united States has done things such as the CIA being responsible for killing the peaceful democratic potential leader of chile because he was going to nationalize their copper mines or some shit and kick out an american corporation, in which then they then installed a ruthless dictator who killed a bunch of Spanish nationals (which they still hate us for) who would let the American company continue to operate.

(this is all de-classified now btw)



But its nothing more or less no other country does/has done.

 

[bubbleheadchief]

The problem is the USA is the big kid on the block, we're damned if we do, damned if we don't.



Rosh, you said "You have basically taken the world over culturally already." I wonder why that is.

 

[roshinaya]

[quote name="bubbleheadchief"]

And because it's not right for anyone to act like a ******, we brought terrorism down on our heads???

[/quote]



What are you trying to say? That you are all innocent and then the evil muslim terrorists just thought it would be a good idea to crash jetliners into skyscrapers? As I tried to explain earlier, the Western resentment among islamic countries has been brewing for almost two centuries maybe even longer, due to a number of different actions done by colonial powers. The westernization of the Ottoman empire, backing a West-leaning Shah in power in Iran which resulted in a revolution and the formation of a theocracy, who in large is behind the modern islamist movements. The US involvement and aggressive foreign policy, some might even call it imperialism, made them a prime target to radical islam.



[quote name="bubbleheadchief"]

And Mass, you're right, if we took on the rest of the world, by ourselves, and didn't use the nukes, we would lose, bad.[/quote]



And using nukes would be a Pyrrhic victory at best.





It's clear we are never going to see eye to eye on this subject. So I see no point in continuing this.