Saints Cut OG Warford

[remydat]

Forgot to add, I accept Warford is more of a mauler but the Saints can be picky because they have a great line and it has worked for them.

The Bears line is filled with finesse guys who quite frankly get pushed around so Nagy',s fixation on mobilty makes little sense. Doesn't matter if Ifedi fits the scheme better if he ultkmately still sucks. We have a lot of great scheme fits who suck at actually blocking. Further if Nagy's version of scheme was proven to have worked then he would get more leeway but he has overseen the desteuction of the run game for guys that are scheme fits with disastrous results.

But hey if it works this time with Castillo then he will deserve credit but there is more reason to doubt his run game and OL than there is to believe in it. There are a lot of unemployed coaches that valued scheme fit over simply getting good players. Hope Nagy ends up being smart enough to not be one of them.

 

[Bearly]

Ok at least we are debating the issues.

1. They could have simply cut him before draft as they ended up doing after the draft. The only reason to keep him until after the draft is in the event someone like Ruiz is there. Do you honestly think they still cut him if they didnt get Ruiz? Contrast that with Pace cutting Burton for little savings before the draft and it is clear the timing is because one team envisioned possibly keeping a guy if the draft didnt fall right and the other team did not.

2. I am not fixated on something that should happen. I was explaining why something did happen ie the Saints cutting Warford. I already said it is fine if Pace goes with Ifedi over Warford as long as we can agree that if the line still sucks and we lose as a result Pace should pay the price. So in the end I concede I could be wrong. The debate here is over playthrough harping on the Warford cut as a means to absolve Pace. In the end, Pace will be proven right or wrong on the field.

3. They saved 7.5 million and currently have 9.3 million in space. So 80% of their current cap space is the result of cutting Warford. So it is most certainly significant. Iggy was not rated higher than Ruiz as a prospect in any pre draft publication I saw. Ruiz was solidly in the first round while Iggy was mostly 2nd round who could sneak into 1st. If they went with a CB then he would likely be nickel as Jenkins is uncuttable because they just extending him and Lattimore doesnt solve cap issue as he would led to zero cap savings. Nickel is important but thry still would have to cut someone to create space. Warford was the most obvious because with one cut you create 7.5 million.

There's also the chance of trading Warford for a pick once they selected Ruiz and I don't know if they cut him without Ruiz. They may have simply drafted next best or later in another round. My understanding is that they were trying to trade him before the draft so there are other scenarios.

It's not so much Ifedi over Warford as it is we already have Ifedi and he 'might' be a better fit even though not as stout. He could also bust out but Warford is also not an optimum fit.

Here's the thing. It's not just that teams aren't signing Warford due to taking OL in the draft, no team thought him worth the $7.75m salary plus any pick in the draft. Not every team filled every need and could have helped their roster makeup by trading a late pick for him yet did not. It all was about price vs performance and/or fit.

 

[Bearly]

Forgot to add, I accept Warford is more of a mauler but the Saints can be picky because they have a great line and it has worked for them.

The Bears line is filled with finesse guys who quite frankly get pushed around so Nagy',s fixation on mobilty makes little sense. Doesn't matter if Ifedi fits the scheme better if he ultkmately still sucks. We have a lot of great scheme fits who suck at actually blocking. Further if Nagy's version of scheme was proven to have worked then he would get more leeway but he has overseen the desteuction of the run game for guys that are scheme fits with disastrous results.

But hey if it works this time with Castillo then he will deserve credit but there is more reason to doubt his run game and OL than there is to believe in it. There are a lot of unemployed coaches that valued scheme fit over simply getting good players. Hope Nagy ends up being smart enough to not be one of them.

Ifedi is large and our OL schemes are mobile so don't see how that fits. Again, I'm not arguing that Ifedi is better than Warford. I just understand why Pace didn't jump at signing Larry. I remember a month or 2 ago when it was all gloom and doom about our own cap space. Now we can't afford to not sign a $7m guard. Teams find the money they need for the things they want or feel more important. Saints didn't feel Warford was one of those..

 

[remydat]

There's also the chance of trading Warford for a pick once they selected Ruiz and I don't know if they cut him without Ruiz. They may have simply drafted next best or later in another round. My understanding is that they were trying to trade him before the draft so there are other scenarios.

It's not so much Ifedi over Warford as it is we already have Ifedi and he 'might' be a better fit even though not as stout. He could also bust out but Warford is also not an optimum fit.

Here's the thing. It's not just that teams aren't signing Warford due to taking OL in the draft, no team thought him worth the $7.75m salary plus any pick in the draft. Not every team filled every need and could have helped their roster makeup by trading a late pick for him yet did not. It all was about price vs performance and/or fit.

I dont disagree there is a fit issue as I also posted an article earlier where they talked about the fact others are more verstile and can play a number of spots in large part due to their mobility.

The point though is money was certainly a factor as the Saints are low on cap and Warford was set to be 2nd highest salary on roster. If he were making less and did not generate 7.5 million in cap savings he is still on the team most likely.

The larger point is none of this has anything to do with whether the Bears should pursue him. The Saints are in a vastly better situation on the OL than us. They can afford to let Warford walk.

What I disagree with is this need to then find excuses when Pace decides on another route rather than just accepting these are two alternatives and we will see who ends up being right. I think Warford is the surer bet albeit at a higher price and Ifedi is a huge gamble. However I have no problem with Pace taking that gamble so long as he is judged on the result of that decision instead of pretending like Warford is not a good option because something must be wrong with him. Then if Ifedi fails saying well Pace had no other alter alternative. This is the narrative that plays out here all the time where if Pace fucks up people try to pretend no other good options will exist.

I am not speaking of you specifically as you were not the person I was debating with.

So again if we all agree that we will judge Pace on how the results and no try to make excuses if this stratrgy fails then I am fine but I can already see the stage being set for people to make excuses from there was no OL as goof as Kmet to well Warford isnt worth it because why would Saints cut him. Sometimes Pace just gets it run.

 

[remydat]

Ifedi is large and our OL schemes are mobile so don't see how that fits. Again, I'm not arguing that Ifedi is better than Warford. I just understand why Pace didn't jump at signing Larry. I remember a month or 2 ago when it was all gloom and doom about our own cap space. Now we can't afford to not sign a $7m guard. Teams find the money they need for the things they want or feel more important. Saints didn't feel Warford was one of those..

Of course they could find the money if they want but again he was the 2nd highest paid player and the 3rd best OL. He also isnt a top 5 player on their O and likely not top 10 overall.

None of that changes the fact he would easily be top 5 on offense for the Bears as really the only guy clearly better than him on O is ARob. So again my issue is trying to use the Saints not wanting him as a means to excuse Pace not going after him. The Saints are far more talented on O and the OL so it is irrelevant.

The only question is whether his price tag is worth the potential upgrade over what we have. And again fine if Pace says no so long as we are going to fairly evaluate whether he was right or not as the season plays out instead of making excuses.

 

[Bearly]

I'm done when reasoned responses become excuses.

 

[mecha]

I'm trying to understand why this one player getting cut warranted what is now 19 pages of discussion. the Bears aren't getting him. by other various CCS logic if a player is cut by a team that means they're washed up garbage anyway. what am I missing?

 

[remydat]

I'm done when reasoned responses become excuses.

I wasn't alking to you. Again you are joining a convo late and ignoring the history. My response to you is I am fine as long as if Ifedi sucks and Warford is good, you accept Pace fucked up. The guys I am engaged with keep coming up with excuses everytime a Pace decision or non-decision blows up.

From there was no one else better than White or Floyd to Trubs was a consensus top pick. It is all bullshit. At the end of the day most decisions boil down to reasonable alternative paths but you are accountable for when that reasonable path ends up wrong.

So I get that Pace is putting his faith in Castillo and Ifedi. If he is right then good on him. If they suck and Warford ends up being good, can we agree Pace should be held accountable?

I have actually stated that several times and no one seems to want to answer that.

 

[SugarWalls]

There's also the chance of trading Warford for a pick once they selected Ruiz and I don't know if they cut him without Ruiz. They may have simply drafted next best or later in another round. My understanding is that they were trying to trade him before the draft so there are other scenarios.

It's not so much Ifedi over Warford as it is we already have Ifedi and he 'might' be a better fit even though not as stout. He could also bust out but Warford is also not an optimum fit.

Here's the thing. It's not just that teams aren't signing Warford due to taking OL in the draft, no team thought him worth the $7.75m salary plus any pick in the draft. Not every team filled every need and could have helped their roster makeup by trading a late pick for him yet did not. It all was about price vs performance and/or fit.

Did you even read the SI article you posted??

Reason number 2 is titled ‘Ruiz.’ So.... a big reason they cut him according to the article corroborating your opinion was because they drafted a young talented G.

Reason 3 - salary cap. Again this is straight out the article you posted.

“ Larry Warford was a vital contributor to the Saints offensive success over the last three seasons and has already attracted some interest on the free agent market. New Orleans made the tough decision to move on from him, but in the process not only opened up salary cap space but also got younger and more athletic along their offensive line. ” again from the SI article you posted.

Idk why you need to paint the narrative any other way. Warford is a pro bowl caliber player that would easily step in and be an upgrade for this bears roster.

 

[Bearly]

Of course there's more than one reason. They all contribute but the idea that he's a perfect fit when our pass pro and line mobility are important is far from a given. I'm not against signing him either. Clearly better than what we have there and that includes Ifedi for what we know right now. I'm just not sure he'll be worth the price tag in this system. I also have a thing about overpaying Gs unless it's about continuity. I thought Long got paid too much, even if he stayed good. I am firmly in the camp that good teams can develop Gs from later T picks but you need a pipeline and good coaching.

 

[PrideisBears]

Forgot to add, I accept Warford is more of a mauler but the Saints can be picky because they have a great line and it has worked for them.

Well this explains why we haven't picked him up. We don't run

 

[remydat]

Of course there's more than one reason. They all contribute but the idea that he's a perfect fit when our pass pro and line mobility are important is far from a given. I'm not against signing him either. Clearly better than what we have there and that includes Ifedi for what we know right now. I'm just not sure he'll be worth the price tag in this system. I also have a thing about overpaying Gs unless it's about continuity. I thought Long got paid too much, even if he stayed good. I am firmly in the camp that good teams can develop Gs from later T picks but you need a pipeline and good coaching.

1. He grades out better in pass pro than every current Bears player.

2. Our need for mobility has led to a bunch of soft OL that cant move guys and a shitty run game.

The problem with this argument is Nagy has not proven his system works run wise so holding hard and fast to a fit argument does not inspire confidence.

If Nagy actually was successful running the ball then he would get more benefit of the doubt.

In fact most of the system guys he has allegedly targeted have been underwhelming from the RB, TE, WR and OL.

 

[Bearly]

Prior willingness or success has zero to do with it, The scheme is the scheme. Even in your scenario, if Nagy doesn't run, do you pay Warford's price for his pass pro?

 

[msadows]

1. He grades out better in pass pro than every current Bears player.

2. Our need for mobility has led to a bunvh of soft OL that cant move guys and a shitty run game.

The problem with this argument is Nagy has not proven his system works run wise so holding hard and fast to a fit argument does not inspire confidence.

If Nagy actually was successful running the ball then he would get more benefit of the doubt.

In fact most of the system guys he has allegedly targeted have been underwhelming from the RB, TE, WR and OL.

Bruh for the love of god stop using PFF as an argument piece.

Watch some fuckin football. JFC

 

[Bearly]

Remy has already accepted the correct run pass ratio.

 

[remydat]

Bruh for the love of god stop using PFF as an argument piece.

Watch some fuckin football. JFC

I saw enough of the Bears OL to conclude Warford would be the best pass protector and run blocker.

You were the main dude harping on how bad the OL was this offseason. The PFF stuff is just to point out an indepedent evaluation.

 

[remydat]

Prior willingness or success has zero to do with it, The scheme is the scheme. Even in your scenario, if Nagy doesn't run, do you pay Warford's price for his pass pro?

Good coaches adjust the scheme to fit the players they have. I said this from day one when everyone was gobbling up Nagy's coolness in year 1 and it came to bear last year when Nagy's scheme ignored what Mitch does best, got rid of Howars for Monty and gave 22 million guaranteed to a tight end with a bleeding penis.

The scheme is the scheme is how terrible coaches eventually get fired. The Bellicheks of the world change their system to make guys fit.

If Nagys scheme is so inflexible that it caught incorporate a pro bowl guard then he will likely be fired soon enough or the Bears will continue to suck as a franchise.

By your admission, Warford wasnt exactly a scheme fit with the Saints but they still got good production for 3 years. Winston is certainly not a scheme fit for what Payton and Brees do but they mist likely will make it work. Scheme fit is overrated particularly when talking about objectively shitty schemes that have not worked in the NFL. This is not Andy Reid here. This is Nagy and his O has been garbage. Adapt or die.

 

[remydat]

Even in your scenario, if Nagy doesn't run, do you pay Warford's price for his pass pro?

Best argument against Warford in entire thread. Yes if Nagy continues being an idiot running the ball then no point and I look forward to his firing.

 

[Bearly]

Nagy changing streams is a different topic. Fit has been in my argument from the beginning, at least for me. At the right price, I still consider a proven product like Warford but it wouldn't be a priority signing for me right now.

 

[msadows]

I saw enough of the Bears OL to conclude Warford would be the best pass protector and run blocker.

You were the main dude harping on how bad the OL was this offseason. The PFF stuff is just to point out an indepedent evaluation.

I didn't mention warford at all. He's better than every bears lineman, yes.

It's just the fact you literally DEPEND on PFF nonstop for every single player.

Watch some fuckin tape. Stop letting shitty biased statistical outlets develop an opinion for you.