Scottie Pippen

[97Bulls]

Clearly, some people in here haven't seen Grant Hill play much in the mid-to-late 90's. He wasn't as good of a defender as Pippen, but shooting, finishing, rebounding and passing I think it is clear as day that Hill was the better player. I honestly think Hill drew the short end of the straw in terms of injuries. This guy fought his ass off to get back into the NBA after many surgeries and even one time coming close to death because of an infection. He had every reason to quit but still didn't.

The fact this guy is still one of the better players in the NBA at his age should speak volumes. He's better than a lot of guys who are much younger than him- McGrady, Iverson, Vince Carter, and many others.

I still don't see how anyone can arrive at the conclusion that hills is better than pippen. THEY PUT UP THE SAME STATS. Pippen shot a better FG% than him. And his defense is far superior.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I still don't see how anyone can arrive at the conclusion that hills is better than pippen. THEY PUT UP THE SAME STATS. Pippen shot a better FG% than him. And his defense is far superior.

They didn't put up the same stats, and nobody was "far" a better perimeter defender than Grant Hill. Pippen was as good as anyone can be because of his length but Hill was nearly as big and just as strong and active.

 

[houheffna]

Cuz your handicapping pippen. You taking the best years of hills career (his first six) but neglect pippens best years.

I thought we were comparing them at their best. The fact is you left 94-97 out. And even though you did, pippen still holds his own compared to hill statistically. And why do you continue to neglect the defensive side of the ball? The side where pippen is considered to be the best ever on the perimeter/swing position

He is the best perimeter defender ever....yet, he wasn't as good an offensive player as any of the top SFs in league history.

My point about Hill is that his first 6 years were his best because of injury...nothing else. And I stated that the trajectory showed that he was on his way to being a better player career wise if his career hadn't been affected by injuries. And I said easily that he was surpassing Pippen, and heading into his prime years, when he suffered said injuries. That was my point. He was on his way to being an all time great. That is why I compared their first years in the league.

 

[97Bulls]

They didn't put up the same stats, and nobody was "far" a better perimeter defender than Grant Hill. Pippen was as good as anyone can be because of his length but Hill was nearly as big and just as strong and active.

Whatever rami. When someone list their best perimeter defenders. Pippen is routinely number 1 and hill is never even an afterthought. Not that's he's a bad defender, but pippen was and is the best ever.

And seeing how they put up similar stats and had similar games, how is pippen not better?

 

[97Bulls]

He is the best perimeter defender ever....yet, he wasn't as good an offensive player as any of the top SFs in league history.

My point about Hill is that his first 6 years were his best because of injury...nothing else. And I stated that the trajectory showed that he was on his way to being a better player career wise if his career hadn't been affected by injuries. And I said easily that he was surpassing Pippen, and heading into his prime years, when he suffered said injuries. That was my point. He was on his way to being an all time great. That is why I compared their first years in the league.

I know why you did it. But that's not a fair way to assess who's better. Even more, hill had only been able to attain that 26 ppg once. In his previous seasons, hill routinely avg 20 to 21 ppg. As the number 1 option. Something pippen did as a number 2. Now why are we to believe that he'd continue that 26 ppg avgg when he wasn't able to reach that level before? And what's more, how do you know the best pippen could do out of jordan shadow is 22? Maybe he'd become more agressive and reach 26 ppg like hill. Im confident pippen could've had a few seasons in which he'd avg 26/10/7 if he was in hills role. Based off of his 22/9/6 he did in 94.

And even more, pippen was 3rd in the mvp voting for 94. And voted by most gms in 95 as the player they pick to build around. He was reaching high levels too. Even higher than hill. The difference is hills ended up having injury problems and for pippen, jordan came back.

I even took the liberty of avg out pippen and hills best 8 years of their career. It was dead even but pippen had 1 more ast. Hills best 8 seasons came out to 20/7/5. Pippens came out to 20/7/6. And like I said before, this is with pippen being on a team with guys that canibalized his stats. But I must say I had to include the year he avg 14 ppg and like 4 rbs and 4 asts. Which dropped hills stats. I didn't want to include his injured years. So I took the next year that he had a full season.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Whatever rami. When someone list their best perimeter defenders. Pippen is routinely number 1 and hill is never even an afterthought. Not that's he's a bad defender, but pippen was and is the best ever.

And seeing how they put up similar stats and had similar games, how is pippen not better?

In his prime, Grant Hill was better. That's all I'm saying. When you go just on career legacies, obviously Pippen was the more accomplished player. But Grant Hill had a better handle, better passing skills, and was a better rebounder than Pippen. And it's obvious who was the better scorer. Hill had a short period of time in his career where he was an elite defender, even though he was never quite as good as Scottie in that area. Pippen was the best perimeter defender in NBA history but Hill was up there, as well, in his prime. The offense Hill had pretty much makes up for that.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I know why you did it. But that's not a fair way to assess who's better. Even more, hill had only been able to attain that 26 ppg once. In his previous seasons, hill routinely avg 20 to 21 ppg. As the number 1 option. Something pippen did as a number 2. Now why are we to believe that he'd continue that 26 ppg avgg when he wasn't able to reach that level before? And what's more, how do you know the best pippen could do out of jordan shadow is 22? Maybe he'd become more agressive and reach 26 ppg like hill. Im confident pippen could've had a few seasons in which he'd avg 26/10/7 if he was in hills role. Based off of his 22/9/6 he did in 94.

And even more, pippen was 3rd in the mvp voting for 94. And voted by most gms in 95 as the player they pick to build around. He was reaching high levels too. Even higher than hill. The difference is hills ended up having injury problems and for pippen, jordan came back.

I even took the liberty of avg out pippen and hills best 8 years of their career. It was dead even but pippen had 1 more ast. Hills best 8 seasons came out to 20/7/5. Pippens came out to 20/7/6. And like I said before, this is with pippen being on a team with guys that canibalized his stats. But I must say I had to include the year he avg 14 ppg and like 4 rbs and 4 asts. Which dropped hills stats. I didn't want to include his injured years. So I took the next year that he had a full season.

Hill did not have 8 years of his prime.

 

[97Bulls]

Hill did not have 8 years of his prime.

Pippen spent his prime behind jordan. Why no exception for him?

 

[houheffna]

Pippen spent his prime behind jordan. Why no exception for him?

Your assumption is that Pippen's career would have been what it was without Jordan, or that he would have been and even better player...that is incredibly naive. Jordan taught Pippen how to play NBA basketball, let's not get it twisted here...

Grant Hill came into the league ready, he was the star of a major college program for 3 years...he was more than ready. You are assuming, I am using facts...

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

^meh..i think pippen would have done well without jordan....but there's alot of variables....he would have learned the game and utilized his defense

pippen was never a great offensive forward...he had a couple of season over 20 PPG...but he could never be a lead scorer...even without jordan he couldnt be a prolific scorer..he just doesnt have the skils

Hill was a better scorer,rebounder, and distributor and arguably the better athlete....now obviously his defense wasnt as good...but his versatility and polished all around game was invaluable

Not to mention that Grant was the leader of his team basically....while Pippen was never established as a leader

Pippen is more accomplished as a player and a defender...being the ultimate sidekick to Jordan and definitely deserves to be in the HOF...however pre injury Hill was better...and he would have been in the HOF as well had he not gotten injured..it really is a shame...

 

[97Bulls]

Your assumption is that Pippen's career would have been what it was without Jordan, or that he would have been and even better player...that is incredibly naive. Jordan taught Pippen how to play NBA basketball, let's not get it twisted here...

Grant Hill came into the league ready, he was the star of a major college program for 3 years...he was more than ready. You are assuming, I am using facts...

Oh come on, hills father played for the cowboys. Hill said he would play with nba players all the time as a kid. And you don't think him playing for duke helped his game?

In fact, every player can attribute their abilities to somebody.

Typical pippen hater dogma. I already know what's next, pippen couldn't lead portland at 34-36 yrs old. Or, pippen wasn't clutch?

 

[houheffna]

Oh come on, hills father played for the cowboys. Hill said he would play with nba players all the time as a kid. And you don't think him playing for duke helped his game?

In fact, every player can attribute their abilities to somebody.

Typical pippen hater dogma. I already know what's next, pippen couldn't lead portland at 34-36 yrs old. Or, pippen wasn't clutch?

You sound like some of these other people on this forum, so because I say Hill was tracking towards a better career than Pippen, I'm a Pippen hater? GTFOH...not going to go over any credentials with you. That is a silly argument that shows you have run out of ammunition...'nuff said!

 

[97Bulls]

^meh..i think pippen would have done well without jordan....but there's alot of variables....he would have learned the game and utilized his defense

pippen was never a great offensive forward...he had a couple of season over 20 PPG...but he could never be a lead scorer...even without jordan he couldnt be a prolific scorer..he just doesnt have the skils

Hill was a better scorer,rebounder, and distributor and arguably the better athlete....now obviously his defense wasnt as good...but his versatility and polished all around game was invaluable

Not to mention that Grant was the leader of his team basically....while Pippen was never established as a leader

Pippen is more accomplished as a player and a defender...being the ultimate sidekick to Jordan and definitely deserves to be in the HOF...however pre injury Hill was better...and he would have been in the HOF as well had he not gotten injured..it really is a shame...

Hills scoring numbers: 20,20,21,21,21,26,20,14. For an avg of 20 ppg. 21 ppg without the 14.
Pippens numbers: 18, 21, 19, 22, 21,19,20, 19. For an avg of 20 ppg

Hills rebounding numbers: 6, 10, 9, 8, 7,7, 5, 4 for an avg of 7
Pippens rebounding numbers: 7,8,8,9,8,6,7,5 for an avg of 7

Hiills assists numbers: 5,7,7,7,6,5,3,2 for an avg of 5
Pippens assists numbers: 6,7,6,6,5,6,6,6 for an avg of 6

Hills career numbers 18/6/4 in 948 gms 15 yrs
Pippens career number 16/6/5 in 1178 games and 18 yrs

Hills avg 20, 7, 5 prime
Pippens 20, 7, 6 prime

And im not even gonna display pippens defensive superiority, which pippen wins by a landslide.

 

[houheffna]

Hills scoring numbers: 20,20,21,21,21,26,20,14. For an avg of 20 ppg. 21 ppg without the 14.
Pippens numbers: 18, 21, 19, 22, 21,19,20, 19. For an avg of 20 ppg

Hills rebounding numbers: 6, 10, 9, 8, 7,7, 5, 4 for an avg of 7
Pippens rebounding numbers: 7,8,8,9,8,6,7,5 for an avg of 7

Hiills assists numbers: 5,7,7,7,6,5,3,2 for an avg of 5
Pippens assists numbers: 6,7,6,6,5,6,6,6 for an avg of 6

Hills career numbers 18/6/4 in 948 gms 15 yrs
Pippens career number 16/6/5 in 1178 games and 18 yrs

Hills avg 20, 7, 5 prime
Pippens 20, 7, 6 prime

And im not even gonna display pippens defensive superiority, which pippen wins by a landslide.

Do you even know what the word "prime" notates? Grant never played in his prime healthy!!! The injuries took his prime years away...THAT is the point...you are looking at years that he played with one leg and was half the player he was at his best. His best overall season was the season right before the injury. Good grief...

 

[FirstTimer]

I love Pippen. Honestly my favorite Bull ever. Even of MJ....but Hill, before the injury was quickly becoming the best player in the league and IMO had he not been hurt Hill would have easily surpassed Pippen as a player. That's not a slight at Pippen as a player, it's more of an amazingly large compliment to Hill.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Hills scoring numbers: 20,20,21,21,21,26,20,14. For an avg of 20 ppg. 21 ppg without the 14.
Pippens numbers: 18, 21, 19, 22, 21,19,20, 19. For an avg of 20 ppg

Hills rebounding numbers: 6, 10, 9, 8, 7,7, 5, 4 for an avg of 7
Pippens rebounding numbers: 7,8,8,9,8,6,7,5 for an avg of 7

Hiills assists numbers: 5,7,7,7,6,5,3,2 for an avg of 5
Pippens assists numbers: 6,7,6,6,5,6,6,6 for an avg of 6

Hills career numbers 18/6/4 in 948 gms 15 yrs
Pippens career number 16/6/5 in 1178 games and 18 yrs

Hills avg 20, 7, 5 prime
Pippens 20, 7, 6 prime

And im not even gonna display pippens defensive superiority, which pippen wins by a landslide.

You obviously didn't watch them play, and your complete disregard for when we say "prime" is clear.

 

[97Bulls]

You sound like some of these other people on this forum, so because I say Hill was tracking towards a better career than Pippen, I'm a Pippen hater? GTFOH...not going to go over any credentials with you. That is a silly argument that shows you have run out of ammunition...'nuff said!

Really? And your ammo was what? Using hill best 6 years to and scottie first 6 as your comparison? You need to gtfo.

 

[houheffna]

Really? And your ammo was what? Using hill best 6 years to and scottie first 6 as your comparison? You need to gtfo.

Maybe you should read slower buddy...I showcased his FIRST SIX YEARS...as well as Pippen's...

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Pippen wasn't in his prime until the 1991-92 season anyway.

 

[97Bulls]

Pippen wasn't in his prime until the 1991-92 season anyway.

True. But the fact is hills best year were his first six. Then had 3 injury plagued seasons and bounced back for a year. Pippens best years were from 92 to 98.