Should the Blackhawks Trade Kane and Toews?

[RacerX]

Definitely yes with Kane but as I keep saying.....the longer you wait with him, the less you will get in return. The trade clause is there of course, but other teams have found a way to work around that. As for Toews.....not sure what he would draw in assets. At this point, he's 3rd liner/PK guy who can win faceoffs. I think a wiser move would be to keep him and hope he rebuilds his career early next year and see who wants him at the deadline....if that's a no go then after 2023, you let him walk.

Toews has significant negative trade value in his contract, and I don't think it's realistic that he is going to improve next year, especially on this sad sack of a team.

The move to make with Toews is to trade his bad contract for a worst one, or trade his contract for an equally shitty one and eat a large chunk of Toew's salary - those are the only ways we are going to net any future picks or prospects for Toews. Otherwise he just gone.

 

[Raskolnikov]

Toews has significant negative trade value in his contract, and I don't think it's realistic that he is going to improve next year, especially on this sad sack of a team.

The move to make with Toews is to trade his bad contract for a worst one, or trade his contract for an equally shitty one and eat a large chunk of Toew's salary - those are the only ways we are going to net any future picks or prospects for Toews. Otherwise he just gone.

I suspect he will retire or play one more year and LTIR like Seabrooke as mentioned. Let Toews figure it out, nothing we can do but respect him and move him to the third line and PK.

But we should prepare by acquiring a face-off specialist.

 

[Diehardfan]

Toews has significant negative trade value in his contract, and I don't think it's realistic that he is going to improve next year, especially on this sad sack of a team.

The move to make with Toews is to trade his bad contract for a worst one, or trade his contract for an equally shitty one and eat a large chunk of Toew's salary - those are the only ways we are going to net any future picks or prospects for Toews. Otherwise he just gone.

Why pay or take on significant money just to get him off the team? Even if they paid half his salary, they wouldn't get much back. From what I'm reading, 2023 is the draft to load up for. If this team does anything but tank next year, they are complete morons. Just keep him and see what happens....you never know when some team gets desperate at the deadline. Look, if he miraculously transforms back into a good player or even stays the same any team would only be on the hook for about a third of the last year of his contract....then he's gone. Plus the fact that a good faceoff guy and PKer can be invaluable in the playoffs. That might attract some interest at the deadline.

 

[RacerX]

Why pay or take on significant money just to get him off the team? Even if they paid half his salary, they wouldn't get much back. From what I'm reading, 2023 is the draft to load up for.

This. We eat his salary plus others in return for additional picks in 2023.

 

[Diehardfan]

This. We eat his salary plus others in return for additional picks in 2023.

Ok. Just need to find a team trying to dump salary, Wirtz willing to pay even more money for crap players, is a Cup contender, needs a faceoff guy and one that Toews would agree to go to....if he doesn't retire.

Good luck with that.

 

[Granada]

From the Hawks' perspective, it's unnecessary to eat any of his salary -- he only has one year left to pay, and the haul he would command will most likely not be worth it. It's hard to see any team relinquishing much for Toews, even if the Hawks eat salary. In addition to his diminished play, his age, injury history, and uncertainty playing-wise will be a huge deterrent. Since his contract is expiring, teams may be more willing to trade for him at the deadline as opposed to this off-season, but even then, I don't think he would command much of a haul.

The only way I can see the Hawks eating salary is if they're desperate to trade him -- meaning, if he wants nothing to do with a rebuild and wants out. And even then, it might be smarter for the Hawks to just say, "**** it," and roll with him for one more year, because teams will just try to put them over a barrel. I can't imagine Davidson will want to eat half or more of Toews' salary for a 3rd round pick or two instead of just keeping him for one more year and taking his chances moving him at the deadline, when he'll have a tad more leverage.

 

[LordKOTL]

Not sure how.........I didn't call for retirement and no way he leaves that much money on the table.

It's been a struggle but JT's still 5th in team scoring with bums for linemates and far and away it's best FO guy and defensive center. Move him for assets and retain what's necessary but it could be decades before the team sees a center of his quality but we'll have plenty of $$$ to pay Johnson's and Connolly's once he's gone .

You mentioned bad-mouthing Toews. I wasn't. I was just giving my stance on the salary implications, not what he brings on the ice for good or bad. I think the point of him retiring this summer has to be balanced with leaving $6.9M on the table, especially given that if he would retire that this current contract is likely the most earning power he would ever have again in his life--and he's only 34. I don't know about you or anyone else here, but if I was 34 and going onto the last year of a contract where I would pull in $6.9M dollars, and after that there was very little chance that I'd ever make that much money per year again (keeping in mind that based on 2019 data the average Canadian male lives about 82 years), I'd really be considering playing just to add that money to the coffers irrespective of health reasons--if LTIRetirement wasn't an option.

Unfortunately not seeing the same quality of a player for a long time is a known quantity in sports. When will we next see a defenseman as good as Keith? What about a 3-zone FWD as good as Hossa? When Kane hangs 'em up when will we see a pure offensive juggernaut as good as him for both set up and scoring? I agree that it's unlikely we see a center as good as Toews for a long time. From the rumors and reports out there I just wish Dach was paying more attention to him--especially at the dot.

From the Hawks' perspective, it's unnecessary to eat any of his salary -- he only has one year left to pay, and the haul he would command will most likely not be worth it. It's hard to see any team relinquishing much for Toews, even if the Hawks eat salary. In addition to his diminished play, his age, injury history, and uncertainty playing-wise will be a huge deterrent. Since his contract is expiring, teams may be more willing to trade for him at the deadline as opposed to this off-season, but even then, I don't think he would command much of a haul.

The only way I can see the Hawks eating salary is if they're desperate to trade him -- meaning, if he wants nothing to do with a rebuild and wants out. And even then, it might be smarter for the Hawks to just say, "**** it," and roll with him for one more year, because teams will just try to put them over a barrel. I can't imagine Davidson will want to eat half or more of Toews' salary for a 3rd round pick or two instead of just keeping him for one more year and taking his chances moving him at the deadline, when he'll have a tad more leverage.

Exactly. We aren't going anywhere this year or next and it is unlikely that 10.5M will bring in a player or a group of players who will turn the team as-is into contenders.

If Toews wants out to play hockey he'll waive and I hope the management will do him a solid. We'll just have to be wary of taking back assets that would impact the cap beyond 2023. To wit: Keeping him at 10.5 just for next season "hurts" less than moving him for another guy signed for 5M until 2025 that doesn't do much. If he wants out to not play I'd hope they'd do him a solid and LTIRetirement him so he gets his $6.9M; since that cap hit even at the beginning of the season and the remaining LTIR overage after that won't affect the 'hawks too much. If he wants to play let him play; he's not the weak link of the team (Jones, DeHann, Gus, King, and Marc Crawford are). We can reevaluate nearer the TDL next season.

 

[JimAKABlkhwks918]

Without getting down into the weeds of retaining salary, terms of a new contract, etc. I think that both have earned the courtesy of having a large say in their own futures. I know the NMC gives them that for the remainder of their current deals, but I hope there is an honest conversation with them this summer about what the Hawks vision of the future looks like and if they want to be a part of it or not.

 

[HSBOB]

From the Hawks' perspective, it's unnecessary to eat any of his salary -- he only has one year left to pay, and the haul he would command will most likely not be worth it. It's hard to see any team relinquishing much for Toews, even if the Hawks eat salary. In addition to his diminished play, his age, injury history, and uncertainty playing-wise will be a huge deterrent. Since his contract is expiring, teams may be more willing to trade for him at the deadline as opposed to this off-season, but even then, I don't think he would command much of a haul.

The only way I can see the Hawks eating salary is if they're desperate to trade him -- meaning, if he wants nothing to do with a rebuild and wants out. And even then, it might be smarter for the Hawks to just say, "**** it," and roll with him for one more year, because teams will just try to put them over a barrel. I can't imagine Davidson will want to eat half or more of Toews' salary for a 3rd round pick or two instead of just keeping him for one more year and taking his chances moving him at the deadline, when he'll have a tad more leverage.

If Toews asks to be traded,you say "**** it"? I say **** that.........like Keith,if he asks,he should get. Of course we shouldn't get held up and maybe we get a 2nd if we eat half,I don't see JT as the worthless entity you guys do.

 

[HSBOB]

You mentioned bad-mouthing Toews. I wasn't. I was just giving my stance on the salary implications, not what he brings on the ice for good or bad. I think the point of him retiring this summer has to be balanced with leaving $6.9M on the table, especially given that if he would retire that this current contract is likely the most earning power he would ever have again in his life--and he's only 34. I don't know about you or anyone else here, but if I was 34 and going onto the last year of a contract where I would pull in $6.9M dollars, and after that there was very little chance that I'd ever make that much money per year again (keeping in mind that based on 2019 data the average Canadian male lives about 82 years), I'd really be considering playing just to add that money to the coffers irrespective of health reasons--if LTIRetirement wasn't an option.

Unfortunately not seeing the same quality of a player for a long time is a known quantity in sports. When will we next see a defenseman as good as Keith? What about a 3-zone FWD as good as Hossa? When Kane hangs 'em up when will we see a pure offensive juggernaut as good as him for both set up and scoring? I agree that it's unlikely we see a center as good as Toews for a long time. From the rumors and reports out there I just wish Dach was paying more attention to him--especially at the dot.


Exactly. We aren't going anywhere this year or next and it is unlikely that 10.5M will bring in a player or a group of players who will turn the team as-is into contenders.

If Toews wants out to play hockey he'll waive and I hope the management will do him a solid. We'll just have to be wary of taking back assets that would impact the cap beyond 2023. To wit: Keeping him at 10.5 just for next season "hurts" less than moving him for another guy signed for 5M until 2025 that doesn't do much. If he wants out to not play I'd hope they'd do him a solid and LTIRetirement him so he gets his $6.9M; since that cap hit even at the beginning of the season and the remaining LTIR overage after that won't affect the 'hawks too much. If he wants to play let him play; he's not the weak link of the team (Jones, DeHann, Gus, King, and Marc Crawford are). We can reevaluate nearer the TDL next season.

Didn't mean to insinuate it was you bad mouthing,I thought you've been fair to be honest. I still see little if any chance of retirement and his injury came from a bad hit and head contact with the dasher if I recall.....that can happen to anybody so I see no need for LTIR either.

It's just the same old kick Toews in the balls over his salary for his critics while fucking ignoring the 8.5M LOSERS like Connolly and Johnson get next year........JOHNSON GETS FIVE MILLION FOR TWO MORE YEARS........LOFL. CRICKETTS!!!!!!!

All the cup winners will be purged at some point and the glorious rebuild will commence.............LOFL!

Jones' deal will sit well too......no cups.

 

[HSBOB]

I suspect he will retire or play one more year and LTIR like Seabrooke as mentioned. Let Toews figure it out, nothing we can do but respect him and move him to the third line and PK.

But we should prepare by acquiring a face-off specialist.

Which two centers on the roster move him down to 3LC?

 

[Granada]

If Toews asks to be traded,you say "**** it"? I say **** that.........like Keith,if he asks,he should get. Of course we shouldn't get held up and maybe we get a 2nd if we eat half,I don't see JT as the worthless entity you guys do.

Bob, you're taking this much too much to heart man. It's like anytime anyone mentions Toews, you freak out. Take a breather brother, lol.

I wouldn't say "**** it" to Toews himself or a request by him; I would say "**** it" if GM's around the league tried to hold me over a barrel. There's a difference.

Of course, as a GM, you do everything you can to oblige his request, but if it isn't possible, it isn't possible. I'd like to think you would agree that Davidson should not trade him and eat 5 to 7 million dollars for peanuts, i.e. a 4th round pick or something.

 

[LordKOTL]

Bob, you're taking this much too much to heart man. It's like anytime anyone mentions Toews, you freak out. Take a breather brother, lol.

I wouldn't say "**** it" to Toews himself or a request by him; I would say "**** it" if GM's around the league tried to hold me over a barrel. There's a difference.

Of course, as a GM, you do everything you can to oblige his request, but if it isn't possible, it isn't possible. I'd like to think you would agree that Davidson should not trade him and eat 5 to 7 million dollars for peanuts, i.e. a 4th round pick or something.

Exactly, although my larger concern is not how much the 'hawks would have to eat losing Toews in 2022-2023. Toews will be 10.5M of the cap for next season and then that's it; maybe he re-signs and maybe he doesn't, but next season is the last of his 10.5M deal.

My concern is trading him away and receiving an albatross contract back that extends beyond the close of 2023. We already have plenty of those: Jones, Johnson, Connolly, etc. (As Bob keeps reminding us--and he's not wrong to be fair; Stan screwed the team good).

If he wants out and all that's out there is other GM's trying to dump multi-year albatross contracts on us then Davidson has to have a sit-down with Toews; he deserves to control his own destiny but not at the expense of the team's future. But if he wants to stay there's no reason to not let him stay; it's not like he's stopping anyone better from being on the 'hawks nor will he and he alone bring the 'hawks the needed 1-2 netminder, 3+ D-men who can actually play defense, and an entire 2nd line.

 

[Granada]

Exactly, although my larger concern is not how much the 'hawks would have to eat losing Toews in 2022-2023. Toews will be 10.5M of the cap for next season and then that's it; maybe he re-signs and maybe he doesn't, but next season is the last of his 10.5M deal.

My concern is trading him away and receiving an albatross contract back that extends beyond the close of 2023. We already have plenty of those: Jones, Johnson, Connolly, etc. (As Bob keeps reminding us--and he's not wrong to be fair; Stan screwed the team good).

If he wants out and all that's out there is other GM's trying to dump multi-year albatross contracts on us then Davidson has to have a sit-down with Toews; he deserves to control his own destiny but not at the expense of the team's future. But if he wants to stay there's no reason to not let him stay; it's not like he's stopping anyone better from being on the 'hawks nor will he and he alone bring the 'hawks the needed 1-2 netminder, 3+ D-men who can actually play defense, and an entire 2nd line.

I'm not as concerned about that personally, because I can't believe Davidson would be that stupid to take on an albatross multi-year contract that extends even one year past next year. But yes, that is another example were, if you're Davidson, and this is the only option you have on the table, you say, "**** it, I'm keeping Toews."

GM's -- and more importantly, organizations -- don't like to just eat salary if they don't have to; and in all honesty, they don't have to (like you say). Toews only has one year left. It would of course suck if Toews demands a trade and there's not a fair deal on the table, but again, it's only a year (or a few months until the deadline) that he'd have to wait.

For the record, I've been one of the few that has stuck up for Toews, even with his recent comments about a rebuild -- which I found refreshingly honest and fair. It's not like I'm a "Toews hater." I'm just trying to look at this realistically.

 

[LordKOTL]

I'm not as concerned about that personally, because I can't believe Davidson would be that stupid to take on an albatross multi-year contract that extends even one year past next year. But yes, that is another example were, if you're Davidson, and this is the only option you have on the table, you say, "**** it, I'm keeping Toews."

GM's -- and more importantly, organizations -- don't like to just eat salary if they don't have to; and in all honesty, they don't have to (like you say). Toews only has one year left. It would of course suck if Toews demands a trade and there's not a fair deal on the table, but again, it's only a year (or a few months until the deadline) that he'd have to wait.

For the record, I've been one of the few that has stuck up for Toews, even with his recent comments about a rebuild -- which I found refreshingly honest and fair. It's not like I'm a "Toews hater." I'm just trying to look at this realistically.

Yep. I think a lot of people do look at this unrealistically--especially because they're trying to apply takes from other sports to hockey. That doesn't work. The 'hawks ideally (in spite of actions to the contrary by our last GM) have to look at the future and how to build and then maintain the team. Player like Toews are not going to be a part of anything but the very near future; getting old sucks. Toews is going to want to look out for himself not just for him playing hockey now, but also his post-hockey career.

Thus, I agree that I don't think Toews is traded even if he demands a trade unless there's an equitable deal coming back. I also don't think he outright retires and leave $6.9M on the table with more than half of his life to go (based on averages) and it being highly unlikely he would ever make that much again.

Plus, just because a player has an NMC (or NTC in any of either's various flavors), doesn't mean they will be traded if they demand a trade. I also think if Toews wants out to play more hockey he will understand the business aspect of things especially given his 1 year left; the 'hawks need to look to their future and can't take a bad deal back. Further, he's only with them for one more year so it's not like he's stuck in Chicago for the better part of a decade on an immovable deal because he's not playing up to his contract. That's Seth Jones' lot .

Besides, the last couple of games he and his line have looked decent. He was not the reason that the 'hawks blew the lead over AZ; that was on Vlassic and Gus--defense. Vlassic at least came up null with a goal as well; plus he's young and will make rookie mistakes. I'm hoping Gus is out of the NHL after this year.

 

[HSBOB]

Bob, you're taking this much too much to heart man. It's like anytime anyone mentions Toews, you freak out. Take a breather brother, lol.

I wouldn't say "**** it" to Toews himself or a request by him; I would say "**** it" if GM's around the league tried to hold me over a barrel. There's a difference.

Of course, as a GM, you do everything you can to oblige his request, but if it isn't possible, it isn't possible. I'd like to think you would agree that Davidson should not trade him and eat 5 to 7 million dollars for peanuts, i.e. a 4th round pick or something.

You're right,I should be used to it by now and I care so little going forward.......it shouldn't bother me.
It's not just JT to be honest,it's every great repeat cup winner not named Hossa who's either been booted to the curb or otherwise placed on the back burner as far as appreciation goes.......guess there's only room for one legend.

Would you say Toews has been referred to here as more of an albatross/cap liability as he nears the end of his deal or more of a respected cup winner who helped break a gut-wrenching 49 year drought?

The guy's been trolled and rolled over his health issues and other things but I'm goin' with you on this........**** IT.

 

[RacerX]

Contrary to the opinions of the majority here, I would indeed take on huge buckets of bad contracts that do not expire until 2025.

If this is a true rebuild and everyone's going to be honest, no way this team competes for anything meaningful until the '25-'26 season at soonest. If done right, the core and future of that team will come from the 2023 and 2024 drafts, and we need to add several more quality draft slots in those years. Not going to get those quality draft picks without taking on significant liabilities. Who cares if we have more useless cap space in 2023-2024 or 2025-2026? Embrace the suck and high draft slots. Got to wait for the T-Johnson and Murphy contracts to expire and hope we drafted well in 2023 & 2024, and by then we will have the cap space to add FAs right when the 2023/2-024 draft core is ready for prime time.

 

[HSBOB]

Yep. I think a lot of people do look at this unrealistically--especially because they're trying to apply takes from other sports to hockey. That doesn't work. The 'hawks ideally (in spite of actions to the contrary by our last GM) have to look at the future and how to build and then maintain the team. Player like Toews are not going to be a part of anything but the very near future; getting old sucks. Toews is going to want to look out for himself not just for him playing hockey now, but also his post-hockey career.

Thus, I agree that I don't think Toews is traded even if he demands a trade unless there's an equitable deal coming back. I also don't think he outright retires and leave $6.9M on the table with more than half of his life to go (based on averages) and it being highly unlikely he would ever make that much again.

Plus, just because a player has an NMC (or NTC in any of either's various flavors), doesn't mean they will be traded if they demand a trade. I also think if Toews wants out to play more hockey he will understand the business aspect of things especially given his 1 year left; the 'hawks need to look to their future and can't take a bad deal back. Further, he's only with them for one more year so it's not like he's stuck in Chicago for the better part of a decade on an immovable deal because he's not playing up to his contract. That's Seth Jones' lot .

Besides, the last couple of games he and his line have looked decent. He was not the reason that the 'hawks blew the lead over AZ; that was on Vlassic and Gus--defense. Vlassic at least came up null with a goal as well; plus he's young and will make rookie mistakes. I'm hoping Gus is out of the NHL after this year.

Not sure who you're referring to as unrealistic,I'm not asking the team to cripple itself to move JT or any other player and I don't expect them to .......I also don't expect they'd have to. I'm only asking the team to make an honest effort to honor the old Albatross's request if he asks to go.
If a 2nd or even a 3rd can be had with retaining 5M next year,I'd do it. It clears the 5M we need to keep Johnson and would rid the team of a player who's become a real problem for many........win-win......no?

And he's not retiring.

 

[KBIB]

Contrary to the opinions of the majority here, I would indeed take on huge buckets of bad contracts that do not expire until 2025.

If this is a true rebuild and everyone's going to be honest, no way this team competes for anything meaningful until the '25-'26 season at soonest. If done right, the core and future of that team will come from the 2023 and 2024 drafts, and we need to add several more quality draft slots in those years. Not going to get those quality draft picks without taking on significant liabilities. Who cares if we have more useless cap space in 2023-2024 or 2025-2026? Embrace the suck and high draft slots. Got to wait for the T-Johnson and Murphy contracts to expire and hope we drafted well in 2023 & 2024, and by then we will have the cap space to add FAs right when the 2023/2-024 draft core is ready for prime time.

This right here.

If Kane and Toews want out, trade them. If taking a bad contract with a couple years on it nabs you a first or second rounder in the next few years, do it.

If Cat nets you a hefty amount of futures, you do it.

With the exception of Seth, nobody is going to be here when this team is good. Move everyone out and do a full rebuild. Don’t do this “well Cat is still young “ shit. Start over and embrace it while you have a couple good drafts staring you in the face.

 

[Granada]

You're right,I should be used to it by now and I care so little going forward.......it shouldn't bother me.
It's not just JT to be honest,it's every great repeat cup winner not named Hossa who's either been booted to the curb or otherwise placed on the back burner as far as appreciation goes.......guess there's only room for one legend.

Would you say Toews has been referred to here as more of an albatross/cap liability as he nears the end of his deal or more of a respected cup winner who helped break a gut-wrenching 49 year drought?

The guy's been trolled and rolled over his health issues and other things but I'm goin' with you on this........**** IT.

I wish I never used the phrase "**** it," because I think it's still causing some confusion, but so be it.

Yes, he's been much maligned recently, just like Seabrook was. And Keith. Although it's easy to spot those who are just straight trolls and those who still respect said players but acknowledge the hard and honest truth.