Should the Blackhawks Trade Kane and Toews?

[LordKOTL]

Maybe a reverse bridge would be good for Toews. Can we sign him for 2.5-3.5 for 4 years?

I believe Toews after this deal qualifies as 35+, which means if he does retire his cap is still on the books. Ergo, I'd be very leery about any long-term deals, and for a player in his mid-30's, 4 years is long term.

I think what happens this summer with Toews & Kane (as @hawkinmontreal states) will say a lot, and if Toews does play for us next year, how does he play? I think that will determine a lot. I would also say that it is in the team's best interest to ensure any 35+ cap durations are short.

Assuming that Toews plays reasonably well given his mileage and age, he wants to stay here, and he's willing to re-sign I would go no more than 2 years max. Cap maxing out around 4.5M AAV--and that would be for 1 year only.

 

[Raskolnikov]

I believe Toews after this deal qualifies as 35+, which means if he does retire his cap is still on the books. Ergo, I'd be very leery about any long-term deals, and for a player in his mid-30's, 4 years is long term.

I think what happens this summer with Toews & Kane (as @hawkinmontreal states) will say a lot, and if Toews does play for us next year, how does he play? I think that will determine a lot. I would also say that it is in the team's best interest to ensure any 35+ cap durations are short.

Assuming that Toews plays reasonably well given his mileage and age, he wants to stay here, and he's willing to re-sign I would go no more than 2 years max. Cap maxing out around 4.5M AAV--and that would be for 1 year only.

So 2 for 8?

Anyone for or against this extension?

I’m for it, NTC or not, and it might have been a coin toss but given our center depth he might be worth it without the name on his back.

Given the name and attempt to retire a Blackhawk, I’d love to watch him finish however he wants.

 

[Diehardfan]

So 2 for 8?

Anyone for or against this extension?

I’m for it, NTC or not, and it might have been a coin toss but given our center depth he might be worth it without the name on his back.

Given the name and attempt to retire a Blackhawk, I’d love to watch him finish however he wants.

His trade value is minimal plus he has to know that no matter where he plays he will be taking a huge pay cut......if he's gonna keep playing, I'd rather he play with the Hawks than against them. Give him an incentive laden contract.

 

[hawkinmontreal]

I believe Toews after this deal qualifies as 35+, which means if he does retire his cap is still on the books. Ergo, I'd be very leery about any long-term deals, and for a player in his mid-30's, 4 years is long term.

I think what happens this summer with Toews & Kane (as @hawkinmontreal states) will say a lot, and if Toews does play for us next year, how does he play? I think that will determine a lot. I would also say that it is in the team's best interest to ensure any 35+ cap durations are short.

Assuming that Toews plays reasonably well given his mileage and age, he wants to stay here, and he's willing to re-sign I would go no more than 2 years max. Cap maxing out around 4.5M AAV--and that would be for 1 year only.

Why, you think signing him for more than 5. will change anything. No top end talent is signing in Chicago anytime soon, the pantry is full of soup cans and beans, this time has a monumental mountain to climb, start by getting rid of DeHaaan, Murphy, and Gus, get rid of Strome and Kubalik play all the soup cans and hopefully score a top 5 pick next year, restock and reload for the next 3-5 and go from there. If Bowman did t **** this team into the abyss, we wouldn’t be talking 5 years, but he did. The central division is stacked, the Kings, Ducks, Canucks and Knights are far better than the Hawks with actual talent in there pantry, and are knocking on the playoff door, this team is in a state of disarray and will only get worse, before they even become respectable.

 

[Diehardfan]

Why, you think signing him for more than 5. will change anything. No top end talent is signing in Chicago anytime soon, the pantry is full of soup cans and beans, this time has a monumental mountain to climb, start by getting rid of DeHaaan, Murphy, and Gus, get rid of Strome and Kubalik play all the soup cans and hopefully score a top 5 pick next year, restock and reload for the next 3-5 and go from there. If Bowman did t **** this team into the abyss, we wouldn’t be talking 5 years, but he did. The central division is stacked, the Kings, Ducks, Canucks and Knights are far better than the Hawks with actual talent in there pantry, and are knocking on the playoff door, this team is in a state of disarray and will only get worse, before they even become respectable.

Agreed.....except for Strome. While hardly a world beater....he is still pretty young, has improved at the dot and is decent on the PP. Funny thing is, he might just be the best center on this horrid team and if Toews doesn't come back....Strome would definitely be the best center. It's embarrassing just to type that. LOL

 

[HSBOB]

Why, you think signing him for more than 5. will change anything. No top end talent is signing in Chicago anytime soon, the pantry is full of soup cans and beans, this time has a monumental mountain to climb, start by getting rid of DeHaaan, Murphy, and Gus, get rid of Strome and Kubalik play all the soup cans and hopefully score a top 5 pick next year, restock and reload for the next 3-5 and go from there. If Bowman did t **** this team into the abyss, we wouldn’t be talking 5 years, but he did. The central division is stacked, the Kings, Ducks, Canucks and Knights are far better than the Hawks with actual talent in there pantry, and are knocking on the playoff door, this team is in a state of disarray and will only get worse, before they even become respectable.

The Org's been left in such a situation that even good,young guys like Hags and Cat have to go for assets let alone vets like K&T. I hear Kane talk about staying and a shorter rebuild,wanting Cat to stay and now JT seems open to staying too,this will entertain me if it happens and give me more reasons to watch games but not how a honest and real rebuild happens IMO.
Move everything that ain't nailed down,collect EVERY pick you can regardless of round(they're all assets) and young prospects. It'll take a few 20-25 win seasons to get the necessary picks to give the team a shot......I still doubt 'The Family' has the stomach for that!

 

[LordKOTL]

Why, you think signing him for more than 5. will change anything. No top end talent is signing in Chicago anytime soon, the pantry is full of soup cans and beans, this time has a monumental mountain to climb, start by getting rid of DeHaaan, Murphy, and Gus, get rid of Strome and Kubalik play all the soup cans and hopefully score a top 5 pick next year, restock and reload for the next 3-5 and go from there. If Bowman did t **** this team into the abyss, we wouldn’t be talking 5 years, but he did. The central division is stacked, the Kings, Ducks, Canucks and Knights are far better than the Hawks with actual talent in there pantry, and are knocking on the playoff door, this team is in a state of disarray and will only get worse, before they even become respectable.

DeHaan and Gus should be gone after this season. Murph is signed long-term and now has more of an injury history; he's not getting moved for real assets coming back. Koob and Strome are arbitration eligible (and I am wondering if Koob even gets qualifed). Plus, Strome might be a piece to dangle.

The fact is Murphy, T Johnson, Jones, and McCabe have locked the lineup and are causing cap and roster inflexibility problems for a long time--and of those only McCabe looks like he's worth a squirt of piss (and then only recently).

Further, all positions have to be filled and preferrably with guys who can mentor the youth. Tank may be on but still, we're going to want someone to teach the Sodebloms, Regula's, and Vlassics good habits, but they have to be movable deals at least in terms of cap and expiry.

So let's say Toews wants to stay. That's fine, but not if it locks the roster. Even though Toews is not the problem, we're still going to have the problems for a good long while. I don't think we could offload the Jones, Murph, T. Johnson or McCabe deals without taking back something as-bad as their deals.

 

[LordKOTL]

So 2 for 8?

Anyone for or against this extension?

I’m for it, NTC or not, and it might have been a coin toss but given our center depth he might be worth it without the name on his back.

Given the name and attempt to retire a Blackhawk, I’d love to watch him finish however he wants.

Neither.

2M over 8 years puts Toews around 43 when it expires. I don't think he plays until he's 43 so that $2M will be on the books regardless. 35+ contracts stay on the cap books even if the player retires and even though $2M is not a lot we still would be playing with a lower cap ceiling

8M over 2 years? Toews is not an $8M player anymore.

I think anything above ~4M for Toews for 2024 and beyond has to be in year increments. Below that we could go in maybe 2 year increments.

 

[KBIB]

If the idea is to tank, you sort of want CDH and Gus here on one year deals next year.

Those guys playing heavy minutes is 15 guaranteed losses minimum

 

[Granada]

If the idea is to tank, you sort of want CDH and Gus here on one year deals next year.

Those guys playing heavy minutes is 15 guaranteed losses minimum

No thanks. They can go take up a roster spot somewhere else. Jones, McCabe, and Murphy are enough vets on the back end. Leave the spots open for guys like Mitchell, Vlasic, Regula, etc.

Gus is gone. If by some stroke of monumental ****-stupid luck he's somehow brought back, that will worse than any other horrific Bowman signing.

 

[LordKOTL]

No thanks. They can go take up a roster spot somewhere else. Jones, McCabe, and Murphy are enough vets on the back end. Leave the spots open for guys like Mitchell, Vlasic, Regula, etc.

Gus is gone. If by some stroke of monumental ****-stupid luck he's somehow brought back, that will worse than any other horrific Bowman signing.

Agreed. While yes, guys like DeHaan and Gus suck harder than a teenage prostitute in Kobe Bryant's hotel room, we also have to balance that with mentorship and what we got. I think Regula and Vlassic, although raw, have proven enough for next season. Mitchell/Beaudin I'm worried won't go anywhere. At this point I see no use for DeHaan and definitely not Gus, and if we do pull in another D-man I think it would be better to pull in an old vet who used to be good and could mentor the kids--preferably one who could actually play defense in their prime.

Tank is good, but not at the expense of development. Regula and Vlassic shouldn't be Rockforded just to have DeHaan and Gus suck it up.

 

[Raskolnikov]

Neither.

2M over 8 years puts Toews around 43 when it expires. I don't think he plays until he's 43 so that $2M will be on the books regardless. 35+ contracts stay on the cap books even if the player retires and even though $2M is not a lot we still would be playing with a lower cap ceiling

8M over 2 years? Toews is not an $8M player anymore.

I think anything above ~4M for Toews for 2024 and beyond has to be in year increments. Below that we could go in maybe 2 year increments.

Lol.

2 years. 8 million total.

4 million/yr. was the intended suggestion.

And yes even that feels like bending our arm if he doesn’t recover, but 4 million for Toews I can look past.

 

[KBIB]

Agreed. While yes, guys like DeHaan and Gus suck harder than a teenage prostitute in Kobe Bryant's hotel room, we also have to balance that with mentorship and what we got. I think Regula and Vlassic, although raw, have proven enough for next season. Mitchell/Beaudin I'm worried won't go anywhere. At this point I see no use for DeHaan and definitely not Gus, and if we do pull in another D-man I think it would be better to pull in an old vet who used to be good and could mentor the kids--preferably one who could actually play defense in their prime.

Tank is good, but not at the expense of development. Regula and Vlassic shouldn't be Rockforded just to have DeHaan and Gus suck it up.

Regula and Vlassic are 21 and 20, respectfully. Neither should be on the Hawks next year and should be playing 20 minutes a game in Rockford. Vlassic especially has no business being in the NHL right now.

These are two high round draft picks with size and are defensive first guys. There is no need to rush either of them into what will be a losing situation when Rockford right now without King ruining momentum has been very good this year.

This whole rushing kids into the NHL or learning on the fly shit needs to stop. These kids aren’t elite talents and outside of Reichel the hawks don’t have a guy who can be considered a game breaker or chain mover so why rush them into a hopeless situation when they can develop in the A in what looks like a better environment currently?

I’m sorry, you sign Gus and CDH to one year contracts, and you trade out everyone for draft picks and do your best to get Bedard or the Russian and build around them.

If you are gonna rebuild, then you rebuild. You don’t keep this Blowman retool mentality that’s crippled this team into the shit it’s become and you start over.

You take bad contracts for high draft picks.
You put Kane and Toews on the block.
You see what the market is for Cat.

You start over

 

[hawkinmontreal]

DeHaan and Gus should be gone after this season. Murph is signed long-term and now has more of an injury history; he's not getting moved for real assets coming back. Koob and Strome are arbitration eligible (and I am wondering if Koob even gets qualifed). Plus, Strome might be a piece to dangle.

The fact is Murphy, T Johnson, Jones, and McCabe have locked the lineup and are causing cap and roster inflexibility problems for a long time--and of those only McCabe looks like he's worth a squirt of piss (and then only recently).

Further, all positions have to be filled and preferrably with guys who can mentor the youth. Tank may be on but still, we're going to want someone to teach the Sodebloms, Regula's, and Vlassics good habits, but they have to be movable deals at least in terms of cap and expiry.

So let's say Toews wants to stay. That's fine, but not if it locks the roster. Even though Toews is not the problem, we're still going to have the problems for a good long while. I don't think we could offload the Jones, Murph, T. Johnson or McCabe deals without taking back something as-bad as their deals.

I am willing to give Johnson a chance, he just had an injury riddled season, a bounce back year could make him tradeable at the deadline next season, he does have experience and when healthy he is a decent player. The irony here is, all the players that are most expendable are on the defensive side, so is it really the players, or is it the system of bad coaching. Murphy and Macabe aren’t start studded defenders but they are better than what they have shown, that can be said about Jones as well. The reality is after the next season when the Hawks suck shit again Kane and Toews will probably have a different philosophy on everything. Start with off loading who they can, DeHaan, Gus and Kubalik, dangle Strome for a draft choice and move from there.

 

[bears5150]

Towes and Kane should go to contenders if that is what they want because they are in a losing situation for the next several years.

 

[LordKOTL]

Regula and Vlassic are 21 and 20, respectfully. Neither should be on the Hawks next year and should be playing 20 minutes a game in Rockford. Vlassic especially has no business being in the NHL right now.

These are two high round draft picks with size and are defensive first guys. There is no need to rush either of them into what will be a losing situation when Rockford right now without King ruining momentum has been very good this year.

This whole rushing kids into the NHL or learning on the fly shit needs to stop. These kids aren’t elite talents and outside of Reichel the hawks don’t have a guy who can be considered a game breaker or chain mover so why rush them into a hopeless situation when they can develop in the A in what looks like a better environment currently?

I’m sorry, you sign Gus and CDH to one year contracts, and you trade out everyone for draft picks and do your best to get Bedard or the Russian and build around them.

If you are gonna rebuild, then you rebuild. You don’t keep this Blowman retool mentality that’s crippled this team into the shit it’s become and you start over.

You take bad contracts for high draft picks.
You put Kane and Toews on the block.
You see what the market is for Cat.

You start over

No.

Regula and Vlassic have proven capable at the NHL level. There's no reason they can't see 20 minutes a night at the NHL level. Sending them down would be the same shit blowman pulled on Joker. Let them make mistakes up here.

Further, the last thing they need is any of the youth on the lineup taking cues fron waste like DeHaan and Gus. You want defensive slugs with good habits, not bad ones.

 

[KBIB]

No.

Regula and Vlassic have proven capable at the NHL level. There's no reason they can't see 20 minutes a night at the NHL level. Sending them down would be the same shit blowman pulled on Joker. Let them make mistakes up here.

Further, the last thing they need is any of the youth on the lineup taking cues fron waste like DeHaan and Gus. You want defensive slugs with good habits, not bad ones.

Lol

What have both proven in 15 and 18 games?

Answer- they’re not ready for the nhl.

You’re not winning next year and Rockford was another team once King was jettisoned into the spittoon that was the Hawks and Sorensen, get this one…. developed the kids on the Hogs into a winner and a playoff team. Hell, Mitchell had a good borderline great year this year to the point he just might not be a bust any more and might be a bottom pairing guy in the nhl some day.

And that’s across the board. Every kid benefitted this year in Crackford to the point I can say I’m impressed. Granted, I’m sure King will once again go back there and the improvements will once again go to shit, but this season, the direction changed.

You look at Dach, and he’s nowhere he should be. Bustvist is a bust and thank god he’s not on the team. Rushing kids with this whole “let them develop in the nhl with grown ass men” thing needs to stop. These kids aren’t McDavid, if they were, they wouldn’t have lasted until the Hawks could have taken them. You look at all these kids being rushed into the NHL right now and failing because they’re not ready, it’s a nasty trend.

Look at Laff.
Kakko
Byfield, Dach, Caufield, etc. They need time. Give it to them. Let them earn a spot and let them develop. Take the Red Wings approach and let them develop until they are a polished product.

 

[Granada]

No.

Regula and Vlassic have proven capable at the NHL level. There's no reason they can't see 20 minutes a night at the NHL level. Sending them down would be the same shit blowman pulled on Joker. Let them make mistakes up here.

Further, the last thing they need is any of the youth on the lineup taking cues fron waste like DeHaan and Gus. You want defensive slugs with good habits, not bad ones.

Not saying you're doing this, but it's foolish to assume you can't rotate these kids. Hawks have a plethora of D prospects. This is what you do on a rebuild. You don't sign old and useless players who take up rosters spots. That's not a rebuild.

Under no circumstances should Eric fucking Gustaffson be re-signed on this team.

 

[HSBOB]

Keeping 20-21yro D-men with the big club vs Rockford depends on a number of issues IMO....

First off for me, is a body that can withstand the punishment the league dishes out and not just as far as durability,absorbing a forecheck without developing 'happy feet' is easier for the large framed D-man as is staying healthy. This wasn't the case with Boqvist who NEEDED a few at the Rock due to his small frame,happy feet and injury problems. If a Lil dude is about to get crushed......good decisions with the puck rarely follow.

It's those good decisions with the puck that mean a lot more to these young D-men at the NHL level than skating ability and speed sometimes too.........it's the UNFORCED errors that kill young D-men,especially when they're repeated.

Of course it's ability and speed that will separate young D-men at some point but these bigger guys seem more equipped to handle the physicality early on without coughin' up the puck all the time and I'm excited to see both Regula and Vlassic in camp next year and I ain't been excited by much lately.

Murph,Jones and McCabe leave ZERO room for dis-GUS-ting and deHAAN-job........time to play every Mitchell,Beaudin,Galvis and every other young D-man in the Org as far as I'm concerned.

 

[LordKOTL]

Not saying you're doing this, but it's foolish to assume you can't rotate these kids. Hawks have a plethora of D prospects. This is what you do on a rebuild. You don't sign old and useless players who take up rosters spots. That's not a rebuild.

Under no circumstances should Eric fucking Gustaffson be re-signed on this team.

That's basically the point:

You take the best defensive between Regula and Vlassic, and put them with Jones. You take the other and put them with McCabe or Murph, whoever looks best in camp. The other takes the bext best kid. Rotate as necessary. If you have to sign a vet get a cheap one with good habits but a ton of mileage on a short term mivable deal, not bad habit ones like DeHaan or Gus.

That D-core above is no better than what was iced in 2006 or 2007, which was developing young D-men, and there's no way that it could prevent the team from tanking especially without Fleury to save the team's ass. Kids get develoment time and the tank is still on. We figure out who can and can't hang ond go from there.