Should the Blackhawks Trade Kane and Toews?

[Granada]

That's basically the point:

You take the best defensive between Regula and Vlassic, and put them with Jones. You take the other and put them with McCabe or Murph, whoever looks best in camp. The other takes the bext best kid. Rotate as necessary. If you have to sign a vet get a cheap one with good habits but a ton of mileage on a short term mivable deal, not bad habit ones like DeHaan or Gus.

That D-core above is no better than what was iced in 2006 or 2007, which was developing young D-men, and there's no way that it could prevent the team from tanking especially without Fleury to save the team's ass. Kids get develoment time and the tank is still on. We figure out who can and can't hang ond go from there.

Right -- and in regard to the bolded -- one you can potentially flip at the deadline.

 

[LordKOTL]

Right -- and in regard to the bolded -- one you can potentially flip at the deadline.

Exactly. We honestly don't know what the prospects will end up doing. Maybe one of them takes hold and becomes a primary player we can rebuild around. Maybe they become a secondary player we can rebuild around and sell high on. Maybe they're a bust. So, when we're picking out backup plans for any vet players coming in in case a prospect doesn't pan out, it should be someone who is indeed flippable, and not someone who will lock the roster like O'donnel did in 2012.

To your point though: I agree that if all else stays the same we really don't necessarily need a vet D--except maybe as a #7. Regula and Vlassic have shown that they belong...so far. We still also have Beaudin, Mitchell, and Nyuk-Nyuk. There's no reason that the best of our D-prospects can't be rotated in and out next season with Jones, Murph, and McCabe. I just would prefer our emergency 7 is someone who can go long periods without seeing icetime and have it not effect their game; i.e. a vet as opposed to a prospect.

And...there's no way a D-corps like that will make the team better than it was this season--especially with no MAF in net for a lion's share of the games.

 

[Probie2429]

Toews they likely can trade at TDL retaining 50 % of his cap hit. Return likely would be a conditional 2nd round pick. Kane you do the same. Teams overpay at the TDL not in the offseason. Debrincat you move at next year’s draft when he will be RFA.

 

[LordKOTL]

Toews they likely can trade at TDL retaining 50 % of his cap hit. Return likely would be a conditional 2nd round pick. Kane you do the same. Teams overpay at the TDL not in the offseason. Debrincat you move at next year’s draft when he will be RFA.

Assuming Toews or Kane waive of course. If they don't the situation is moot.

Debrincat would be another good TDL piece to move if the 'hawks don't work something out if they want to keep him. We'll see, though. I think the draft lottery will tell a lot about how the 'hawks move forward.

 

[Diehardfan]

Assuming Toews or Kane waive of course. If they don't the situation is moot.

Debrincat would be another good TDL piece to move if the 'hawks don't work something out if they want to keep him. We'll see, though. I think the draft lottery will tell a lot about how the 'hawks move forward.

You don't move someone who is young and is a play finisher. They already went that route with the Breadman....how'd that work out? At 24, you build around players like him. Kaner doesn't even finish like the Cat. Debrincat has already hit 40 twice in 5 years.....Kaner has done it twice as well but in 14 years. Hard to believe you will find someone in the draft who can do what he's doing regularly. He's restricted in 2023...they can extend with the bigger cap hit down the line or match any offer and give him his big reward in 24. They should have a boatload of cap space by then.

What Davidson should be working on is how to get the $4 million abortion named McCabe off the books.

 

[LordKOTL]

You don't move someone who is young and is a play finisher. They already went that route with the Breadman....how'd that work out? At 24, you build around players like him. Kaner doesn't even finish like the Cat. Debrincat has already hit 40 twice in 5 years.....Kaner has done it twice as well but in 14 years. Hard to believe you will find someone in the draft who can do what he's doing regularly. He's restricted in 2023...they can extend with the bigger cap hit down the line or match any offer and give him his big reward in 24. They should have a boatload of cap space by then.

What Davidson should be working on is how to get the $4 million abortion named McCabe off the books.

By the time the 'hawks are ready to compete again, Debrincat will be in his 30's, and that's if they get the needed pieces in the back end and develop them. He alone cannot bring the team to the cup...and that's basically what the 'hawks are at this point... Debrincat.

Gretzky was moved. If you get the right deal for Debrincat you move him. If not by all means keep him around.

 

[bears5150]

Cat is young enough to keep in the rebuild, however if you can improve your team by getting 2 or 3 guys for the Cat then do it if not keep the ball rolling

 

[HSBOB]

You don't move someone who is young and is a play finisher. They already went that route with the Breadman....how'd that work out? At 24, you build around players like him. Kaner doesn't even finish like the Cat. Debrincat has already hit 40 twice in 5 years.....Kaner has done it twice as well but in 14 years. Hard to believe you will find someone in the draft who can do what he's doing regularly. He's restricted in 2023...they can extend with the bigger cap hit down the line or match any offer and give him his big reward in 24. They should have a boatload of cap space by then.

What Davidson should be working on is how to get the $4 million abortion named McCabe off the books.

I saw a 5 year comparison between the Cat and other great Hawks players and then I remembered......

Two forty+ seasons.....but......
One Covid shortened 52gm/32gl season that saw the kid on a pace for 50!
Another Covid shortened 70gm season that also had a HC who NEVER should have had the job skate his elite sniper on the 3rd line.....the year after a 41 goal sason!
And one rookie campaign @19.

 

[HSBOB]

By the time the 'hawks are ready to compete again, Debrincat will be in his 30's, and that's if they get the needed pieces in the back end and develop them. He alone cannot bring the team to the cup...and that's basically what the 'hawks are at this point... Debrincat.

Gretzky was moved. If you get the right deal for Debrincat you move him. If not by all means keep him around.

I'm good with seeing DeBrincat moved and hopefully to a better team(shouldn't be hard...LOL) but do you think it'll take 7-8 years before the team's competitive again? You're probably right.

 

[Diehardfan]

If it takes longer than 3-4 years to build a competitive playoff team in the salary cap era.....then they hired the wrong GM.

 

[Diehardfan]

I saw a 5 year comparison between the Cat and other great Hawks players and then I remembered......

Two forty+ seasons.....but......
One Covid shortened 52gm/32gl season that saw the kid on a pace for 50!
Another Covid shortened 70gm season that also had a HC who NEVER should have had the job skate his elite sniper on the 3rd line.....the year after a 41 goal sason!
And one rookie campaign @19.

Exactly what I'm saying....it's damn hard to find guys who can consistently finish plays. The Hawks had one in Panarin and the idiot traded him rather than pay him. They can't afford to let that happen again.

 

[LordKOTL]

If it takes longer than 3-4 years to build a competitive playoff team in the salary cap era.....then they hired the wrong GM.

Not true for the simple fact of how bad Stan fucked the team over and emptied the cupboards of both prospects and draft picks.

Unless they get very...and I mean VERY lucky with both of Regula and Vlassic, the 'hawks are effectively year zero--i.e. the point where Keith was drafted--2002 vs the cup win in 2010. There's so little in the D pipeline and at best, Seth Jones is Brian Campbell (in game and cap hit).

The 'hawks need top-end 3-zone defensemen since they don't have any right now, and the price on the trade/FA market puts them out of reach. It would take a player like Debrincat to prize one out of another team, or they'd be looking at a Seth Jones-like contract. Assets have to be not only acquired, but many of them also have to be developed, and developing D takes time.

This isn't to say I don't want Debrincat on the team and to retire a 'hawk; I most certainly do. But if the right move comes along then the 'hawks have to consider it.

Speaking of considering moves...I think the 'hawks should be going after Trotz as head coach now that he's been canned. They need someone who can actually develop D and he is damned good at it.

 

[Granada]

Not true for the simple fact of how bad Stan fucked the team over and emptied the cupboards of both prospects and draft picks.

Unless they get very...and I mean VERY lucky with both of Regula and Vlassic, the 'hawks are effectively year zero--i.e. the point where Keith was drafted--2002 vs the cup win in 2010. There's so little in the D pipeline and at best, Seth Jones is Brian Campbell (in game and cap hit).

The 'hawks need top-end 3-zone defensemen since they don't have any right now, and the price on the trade/FA market puts them out of reach. It would take a player like Debrincat to prize one out of another team, or they'd be looking at a Seth Jones-like contract. Assets have to be not only acquired, but many of them also have to be developed, and developing D takes time.

This isn't to say I don't want Debrincat on the team and to retire a 'hawk; I most certainly do. But if the right move comes along then the 'hawks have to consider it.

Speaking of considering moves...I think the 'hawks should be going after Trotz as head coach now that he's been canned. They need someone who can actually develop D and he is damned good at it.

Exactly. You'd need to be a miracle worker to turn this team around in 3 years

It's real simple: if you get a king's ransom -- for anybody on this team, including Debrincat -- you do it.

As far as Trotz goes, people better be careful what they wish for there. I'm not saying you're doing this, but others who have absolutely no clue what they're talking about hear a familiar name they know and go, "oh, he's good so I'm told, hire him!" Yet they have zero clue about him and his clog-up-the-neutral-zone, boring-ass trap style of hockey. Just saying.

This team has zero identity right now. They don't even have a proper core in place; or even half of a core. Or even a solid goaltender, which is an absolute necessity in Trotz's system. It's not the worst idea in the world -- I wouldn't hate it -- but I'd say work on the roster first and foremost before you commit to a coach like Trotz.

 

[Raskolnikov]

You don't move someone who is young and is a play finisher. They already went that route with the Breadman....how'd that work out? At 24, you build around players like him. Kaner doesn't even finish like the Cat. Debrincat has already hit 40 twice in 5 years.....Kaner has done it twice as well but in 14 years. Hard to believe you will find someone in the draft who can do what he's doing regularly. He's restricted in 2023...they can extend with the bigger cap hit down the line or match any offer and give him his big reward in 24. They should have a boatload of cap space by then.

What Davidson should be working on is how to get the $4 million abortion named McCabe off the books.

Kaner could have scored 80 goals a year if the buttons hadn’t have gotten stuck on his controller.

 

[LordKOTL]

Exactly. You'd need to be a miracle worker to turn this team around in 3 years

It's real simple: if you get a king's ransom -- for anybody on this team, including Debrincat -- you do it.

As far as Trotz goes, people better be careful what they wish for there. I'm not saying you're doing this, but others who have absolutely no clue what they're talking about hear a familiar name they know and go, "oh, he's good so I'm told, hire him!" Yet they have zero clue about him and his clog-up-the-neutral-zone, boring-ass trap style of hockey. Just saying.

This team has zero identity right now. They don't even have a proper core in place; or even half of a core. Or even a solid goaltender, which is an absolute necessity in Trotz's system. It's not the worst idea in the world -- I wouldn't hate it -- but I'd say work on the roster first and foremost before you commit to a coach like Trotz.

While I agree a trap system would be boring, Trotz does emphasize defense, and that's an area where the 'hawks are sorely lacking--I think someone like him would be good for the Regulas and the Vlassics--much better than JC's crew and King's crew.

The flipside is that Trots will have a ton of offers, and I think he might be looking for a team closer to ready. but still, Davidson has to at least put an effort into landing him since Trotz is lightyears beyond the last 2 coaches we've had, plus their assistants, combined.

*EDIT* and yes, there really isn't a core in place as it is; the closest we got is Debrincat and Seth Jones, and Jones just by proxy. Ergo: Anyone should be able to be moved for the right price. The price has to be right, though. A player like Debrincat has to fetch some serious high-end assets; so it's not like we're saying he has to be moved for whatever--we know what value he has and we can't be undersold on him.

 

[Diehardfan]

Hmmm, always a great idea to trade young, successful players for so called "assets".

"The truth is that very few players taken in the NHL draft this weekend will ever play in the NHL. In order to get an accurate read of how many drafted players played at least 200 games in the NHL, a study by proicehockey.about.com looked at the drafts between 1990 and 1999. Of the 2,600 hundred players drafted just 494 or 19% played in at least 200 contests. 63% of first round picks played but less than 25% of second round picks survived and only 12% of third rounder selections. Former NHL general manager Doug MacLean said his math over the last decade showed that only 15% of second round picks ever become impact players."

Or....

"What percentage of players drafted make it to the NHL? On average 49% of players who are drafted by an NHL team will make it to the NHL, which means that they play at least one game at the NHL level."

One game. You can probably take a guess on the percentage of players that work their way through to become stars. Which is why if you have a young one, you keep him.

The chances of building successfully from ground zero is minimal. You need a mix. Keeping some young players that are great or can be great, drafting better than the other guy and clearing Cap space to be able to sign a couple of players that the already successful teams can't resign because they are capped out. You need to be Cap friendly. NO more dumb, over priced long term signings, it can't happen anymore. This is the biggest blunder that Bowman made and given the fact that he had to go through it himself early and often in the 10 year run, makes it absolutely unforgiveable that he would put his own team in that same kind of hole.

This is not MLB with it's 5 year rebuilds. The NHL is a cap league like the NFL and the NBA. A good GM can rebuild in 3 to 4 years if he drafts well, keeps his Cap under control and makes sensible signings. I have no idea if Davidson is that guy....it sure would be nice if he was.

 

[KBIB]

Sorry guys, this is a 5 to 8 year rebuild because of Blowmans blunders of three years of retools.

The pipeline is completely shot, and if we’re going to be honest about it the one blue chip guy, Reichel, might have a ceiling of a second liner but a floor of a third liner.

This is Blowman and Kelly who did this. Seider is a number one defenseman who looks like the second coming of Lidstrom.

We drafted Kirby Dach and rushed him.

Noah Dobson is a 50 point first pairing defenseman.

We drafted Adam Boqvist and rushed him.

Kelly and his smartest guy in the room act crippled this team then Blowman had to up the ante with stupid, head scratching moves.

The hawks drafted Danault, you know, Bergeron lite and Stan the sham traded him.

Three cups in six years gave these two the biggest egos when neither had anything to do with the cores of those teams. And now, because of those egos, this team has nothing, absolutely nothing to show for it.

And the funny thing is, five years is minimum even if Davidson hits on his draft picks. That’s how bad of shape this team is in.

 

[KBIB]

As for Trotz, I’m 100% onboard with getting him.

I highly doubt Rocky wants to make him the highest paid coach in the league tho because that’s what it’s going to take to get him.

Hell, Strome and Kane would be fun to watch is the 1-3-1 trap Trotz uses, but players like Lafferty, Kura and Kubalik would thrive in it.

Draft lottery is today. Me thinks if the Hawks luck out into first overall and get Wright they really think hard about bringing in Trotz.

 

[Granada]

While I agree a trap system would be boring, Trotz does emphasize defense, and that's an area where the 'hawks are sorely lacking--I think someone like him would be good for the Regulas and the Vlassics--much better than JC's crew and King's crew.

The flipside is that Trots will have a ton of offers, and I think he might be looking for a team closer to ready. but still, Davidson has to at least put an effort into landing him since Trotz is lightyears beyond the last 2 coaches we've had, plus their assistants, combined.

*EDIT* and yes, there really isn't a core in place as it is; the closest we got is Debrincat and Seth Jones, and Jones just by proxy. Ergo: Anyone should be able to be moved for the right price. The price has to be right, though. A player like Debrincat has to fetch some serious high-end assets; so it's not like we're saying he has to be moved for whatever--we know what value he has and we can't be undersold on him.

Right -- it has to make sense to trade Debrincat. It isn't the end of the world if he's retained, but if someone is willing to offer the right package, that would jump start the rebuild and then some.

Trotz is a defensive guru -- true -- but like Davidson would have to be a miracle worker to complete this rebuild in 3 years, I think Trotz would also have to be a miracle worker to make his system work with this current roster. A good system means little if you don't have the proper roster that fits into said system. He has a very rigid, specific system that would be a drastic change for any roster, let alone one this green. Also, it's like you said, it's doubtful he would want to come here and deal with this current mess; he'll be in demand by much better teams. I wouldn't hate if he was hired, but I just don't see it as a logical fit at this point.

 

[HSBOB]

Exactly what I'm saying....it's damn hard to find guys who can consistently finish plays. The Hawks had one in Panarin and the idiot traded him rather than pay him. They can't afford to let that happen again.

His playmaking has also improved with a career high in assists,his defensive game is very good for an offensive player(he even saw PK time),his attitude seems top notch and once again....he played em all.....the only Hawk to do so.

He offers a lot more than elite sniper ability,play him with Kane and Strome all year and 50/50 is well within reach but the question remains.....will that just be enough to keep the team from top the 5 picks they need?