Should the Blackhawks Trade Kane and Toews?

[Granada]

Contrary to the opinions of the majority here, I would indeed take on huge buckets of bad contracts that do not expire until 2025.

If this is a true rebuild and everyone's going to be honest, no way this team competes for anything meaningful until the '25-'26 season at soonest. If done right, the core and future of that team will come from the 2023 and 2024 drafts, and we need to add several more quality draft slots in those years. Not going to get those quality draft picks without taking on significant liabilities. Who cares if we have more useless cap space in 2023-2024 or 2025-2026? Embrace the suck and high draft slots. Got to wait for the T-Johnson and Murphy contracts to expire and hope we drafted well in 2023 & 2024, and by then we will have the cap space to add FAs right when the 2023/2-024 draft core is ready for prime time.

I see what you're saying, but can't you "embrace the suck and high draft slots" without eating terrible contracts for multiple years and potentially hamstringing yourself as an organization when guys you will want to keep (like Debrincat) need deals? I don't think any organization would willing want to eat a bunch of horrible contracts, unless of course they were in danger of falling below the cap floor. My point is, it seems more logical to sign dirt-cheap UFA vets year by year, as opposed to locked-up albatross vets with multi-year contracts.

 

[RacerX]

I see what you're saying, but can't you "embrace the suck and high draft slots" without eating terrible contracts for multiple years and potentially hamstringing yourself as an organization when guys you will want to keep (like Debrincat) need deals? I don't think any organization would willing want to eat a bunch of horrible contracts, unless of course they were in danger of falling below the cap floor. My point is, it seems more logical to sign dirt-cheap UFA vets year by year, as opposed to locked-up albatross vets with multi-year contracts.

The goal is to rebuild through the draft, and to do so we must acquire more high-value draft picks. That's not going to happen by picking up dirt-cheap UFA vets.

To attain our goal of adding 2023/2024 high-value draft picks, there are 2 paths: (1) give up something of value, or (2) assume shit liabilities. We have little to none of the former, and a shit-ton of capacity for the latter, which is why I am advocating for the team to assume steaming contract turds.

We are not going to compete for the next couple years regardless, so why not load up picks while skating to a bottom-3 record + better draft positioning?

 

[Granada]

The goal is to rebuild through the draft, and to do so we must acquire more high-value draft picks. That's not going to happen by picking up dirt-cheap UFA vets.

To attain our goal of adding 2023/2024 high-value draft picks, there are 2 paths: (1) give up something of value, or (2) assume shit liabilities. We have little to none of the former, and a shit-ton of capacity for the latter, which is why I am advocating for the team to assume steaming contract turds.

We are not going to compete for the next couple years regardless, so why not load up picks while skating to a bottom-3 record + better draft positioning?

I'll answer the question first: in my view, you can still attain a garbage record and better draft positioning with bottom-barrel one-year vets. Either way, vets should be sparse; the team will be young and the record will suck regardless.

I'm all for acquiring high-draft picks, but not that way. I'm not so sure a team is going to attach a high-draft pick and retain a piece from us, simply to pawn off a bad contract that will expire in 3 years. Said team can just bury it themselves without relinquishing a high-draft pick and 3 years isn't long. The only way I can see a team attaching a high pick -- such as a 1st, which, you wouldn't want to do it for anything less -- would be if said contract was a real shit-show; like 5-7 years in length for close if not over double-digit salary.

 

[KBIB]

The goal is to rebuild through the draft, and to do so we must acquire more high-value draft picks. That's not going to happen by picking up dirt-cheap UFA vets.

To attain our goal of adding 2023/2024 high-value draft picks, there are 2 paths: (1) give up something of value, or (2) assume shit liabilities. We have little to none of the former, and a shit-ton of capacity for the latter, which is why I am advocating for the team to assume steaming contract turds.

We are not going to compete for the next couple years regardless, so why not load up picks while skating to a bottom-3 record + better draft positioning?

100% bang on.

Teams will give up high draft picks to take on shit contracts/ get rid of problem contracts.

This team needs to be the drizzling shits next year, if taking some slugs contract along with a first rounder because the Hawks will have cap space happens, you do it

 

[LordKOTL]

Not sure who you're referring to as unrealistic,I'm not asking the team to cripple itself to move JT or any other player and I don't expect them to .......I also don't expect they'd have to. I'm only asking the team to make an honest effort to honor the old Albatross's request if he asks to go.
If a 2nd or even a 3rd can be had with retaining 5M next year,I'd do it. It clears the 5M we need to keep Johnson and would rid the team of a player who's become a real problem for many........win-win......no?

And he's not retiring.

I'm referring to those who think Toews should "Just Retire" and those who think that it's in the 'hawks best interest to sell everything no matter what. I don't think you're in that boat.

With respect to "Just Retire", I think I've been clear on my stance on that: Toews is turning 34 very soon, and will be 34 after this season. If he "Just Retired", he would leave $6.9M on the table. He could always go LTIRetirment, but that would be a cap hit for us or someone else next season. Either way, next season will be his last shot at making that much money (Cap hit or actual salary). If he continues playing I don't think he'll command above $5M AAV (especially on a 35+ contract), and if not I give it a 99.9999999% chance that no matter what he does for the rest of his life he won't pull in that much per year ever again. Every pro sport player is the same with very few exceptions. Thus, I highly, Highly doubt he'd leave $6.9 on the table. Plus, I agree, I don't think he'll retire this summer. He's looked good in recent games, not 10.5M good, but certainly not a liability. It's not realistic to expect him to "just retire." It's realistic to expect him to try and get one last serious payday, be it playing or off of LTIRetirement, and if he decides to go that route some team is going to be hit with a 10.5M cap hit which needs to be on the books for the 1st day of the 2023 season in order to take advantage of LTIR overages--meaning that the opening day cap expenditure hit for us or someone else has to be 72M or less.

And, because his deal is over next season there's no real need to take in a bad deal. The team isn't going anywhere next season, so whether he stays or goes next season is irrelevant. Contrast to Seth Jones, who's with us until 2030 (Thanks Stan), as well as Murph until 2027 (Thanks again). If anything we should be trying to move THEM for an albatross deal that expire sooner that theirs; I don't think they can be moved for anything less. Toews? Yeah, you could push him for a pick or two and an albatross contract who expires in 2023 with cap retained and that's not a bad deal--assuming he wants out of course. But between now and a couple of years from now we need to try to get as much liquid cap as possible especially since Stan froze a lot of it needlessly. No more long-term albatross deals and getting enough mobile cap so that an actual member of the next core can be signed and locked in. Jones isn't it. Neither is Murph.

High-level draft picks are going to cost actual blue-chip talent. Talent like Debrincat. I don't think Toews would garner that without taking back a long-term bad contract that is as immovable as Jones' deal, and those types of deals will haunt us when some of the talent we can acquire needs a payday.

 

[RacerX]

I'm referring to those who think Toews should "Just Retire" and those who think that it's in the 'hawks best interest to sell everything no matter what. I don't think you're in that boat.

With respect to "Just Retire", I think I've been clear on my stance on that: Toews is turning 34 very soon, and will be 34 after this season. If he "Just Retired", he would leave $6.9M on the table. He could always go LTIRetirment, but that would be a cap hit for us or someone else next season. Either way, next season will be his last shot at making that much money (Cap hit or actual salary). If he continues playing I don't think he'll command above $5M AAV (especially on a 35+ contract), and if not I give it a 99.9999999% chance that no matter what he does for the rest of his life he won't pull in that much per year ever again. Every pro sport player is the same with very few exceptions. Thus, I highly, Highly doubt he'd leave $6.9 on the table. Plus, I agree, I don't think he'll retire this summer. He's looked good in recent games, not 10.5M good, but certainly not a liability. It's not realistic to expect him to "just retire." It's realistic to expect him to try and get one last serious payday, be it playing or off of LTIRetirement, and if he decides to go that route some team is going to be hit with a 10.5M cap hit which needs to be on the books for the 1st day of the 2023 season in order to take advantage of LTIR overages--meaning that the opening day cap expenditure hit for us or someone else has to be 72M or less.

And, because his deal is over next season there's no real need to take in a bad deal. The team isn't going anywhere next season, so whether he stays or goes next season is irrelevant. Contrast to Seth Jones, who's with us until 2030 (Thanks Stan), as well as Murph until 2027 (Thanks again). If anything we should be trying to move THEM for an albatross deal that expire sooner that theirs; I don't think they can be moved for anything less. Toews? Yeah, you could push him for a pick or two and an albatross contract who expires in 2023 with cap retained and that's not a bad deal--assuming he wants out of course. But between now and a couple of years from now we need to try to get as much liquid cap as possible especially since Stan froze a lot of it needlessly. No more long-term albatross deals and getting enough mobile cap so that an actual member of the next core can be signed and locked in. Jones isn't it. Neither is Murph.

High-level draft picks are going to cost actual blue-chip talent. Talent like Debrincat. I don't think Toews would garner that without taking back a long-term bad contract that is as immovable as Jones' deal, and those types of deals will haunt us when some of the talent we can acquire needs a payday.

I'm not seeing any risk of losing any current roster talent prior to 2025 because we can't afford a payday. And the talent we hope to add in the 2023/2024 draft picks don't need that payday prior to 2026, so I am not tracking your conclusion that taking on bad contracts beyond 2023 is going to somehow hamstring the overall roster talent.

Perhaps we have differing definitions of long-term bad contracts, you seem to define it as anything past 2023 whilst my definition is anything beyond 2025. My definition is predicated on the fact there is a 0.0001% likelihood we will be playoff competitors prior to 2026, and whilst we are that shitty in this period of suck, it makes no sense to add FAs.

 

[hawkinmontreal]

Toews knows his value has diminished in the NHL market he will not let 6.9 fade into the sunset, he is not retiring in the summer. With all due respect the team is pure garbage with him or without him, if he leaves or he doesn’t leaves changes nothing. Sign him for 6 million, who cares, the Hawks are and will be shit for the next 5 years, he will be gone by then. Let him retire with dignity, he deserves it, he gave it all for this team and would give more if he could, but he can’t and he knows it, a second or third round draft choice is a crapshoot at the very least, Toews in no way is detrimental to the team, I sure as hell will give him Johnson’s money and not even bat an eye. Kane on the other hand, 90 points, still elite can fetch a 1st rounder and a ready to play top talent player, hate to see him go, but that’s the only chip in play.

 

[KBIB]

Kane’s 90 points and an 8.0 point share on a shitty team surely deserves a 6 million a year take it or leave it contract.


Who’s with me?

 

[Granada]

I'm not seeing any risk of losing any current roster talent prior to 2025 because we can't afford a payday. And the talent we hope to add in the 2023/2024 draft picks don't need that payday prior to 2026, so I am not tracking your conclusion that taking on bad contracts beyond 2023 is going to somehow hamstring the overall roster talent.

Perhaps we have differing definitions of long-term bad contracts, you seem to define it as anything past 2023 whilst my definition is anything beyond 2025. My definition is predicated on the fact there is a 0.0001% likelihood we will be playoff competitors prior to 2026, and whilst we are that shitty in this period of suck, it makes no sense to add FAs.

The Cat is up after 2023 though; and Jones' 9 million a year kicks in next season. Plus, what happens with Reichel? Vlasic and Regula will up by 2023 and 2024 -- what if they're studs? At this point, you can say it's wishful thinking -- sure -- but I would hope a GM would plan for such things. You have to expect Davidson to leave himself some wiggle room, and in my view, he should.

I respect your view here and I understand your reasoning, but to me, acquiring a bunch of albatross contracts would essentially be cutting your nose off to spite your face. Maybe the Hawks do that with one player (if it makes sense), but multiple? I think that's really playing with fire there. I think there are other ways to acquire picks, and the safer and more specific way would be to acquire a couple UFA vets and flip them at the deadline; if you can't flip them, you're not forced to eat salary for however-many years. We will suck for at least the next 2-3 years even without acquiring albatross contracts, and thus, acquire better draft positioning that way.

There is indeed a point for a rebuilding team to acquire UFA vets, and it's solely to flip them for picks/prospects at the deadline. I'm not saying Davidson should go out and spend like Bowman, but if he wants to acquire future assets, this is the safer and more logical way. Fleury is a perfect example -- that is the smarter way.

 

[Raskolnikov]

They should get Vegas to eat half of Lehnars salary and give him back.

I don’t hate Gus with Boqvist gone, just use him situationally.

 

[Tater]

They should get Vegas to eat half of Lehnars salary and give him back.

I don’t hate Gus with Boqvist gone, just use him situationally.

There really aren't any situations that he's good in.

 

[Bust]

Toe's hunger for the game was deemed questionable when he sat out voluntarily for the full season. This just a month later after he went on a fit when crawford was no longer in the hawks plans.

Hawks will become good again if a few of their picks pick up their games. Thus far Dach is a dud and the few times Reichel's been on the ice he been meh as well. Someone needs to step up and become "The Guy(s)" and not just "A Guy".

 

[LordKOTL]

The Cat is up after 2023 though; and Jones' 9 million a year kicks in next season. Plus, what happens with Reichel? Vlasic and Regula will up by 2023 and 2024 -- what if they're studs? At this point, you can say it's wishful thinking -- sure -- but I would hope a GM would plan for such things. You have to expect Davidson to leave himself some wiggle room, and in my view, he should.

I respect your view here and I understand your reasoning, but to me, acquiring a bunch of albatross contracts would essentially be cutting your nose off to spite your face. Maybe the Hawks do that with one player (if it makes sense), but multiple? I think that's really playing with fire there. I think there are other ways to acquire picks, and the safer and more specific way would be to acquire a couple UFA vets and flip them at the deadline; if you can't flip them, you're not forced to eat salary for however-many years. We will suck for at least the next 2-3 years even without acquiring albatross contracts, and thus, acquire better draft positioning that way.

There is indeed a point for a rebuilding team to acquire UFA vets, and it's solely to flip them for picks/prospects at the deadline. I'm not saying Davidson should go out and spend like Bowman, but if he wants to acquire future assets, this is the safer and more logical way. Fleury is a perfect example -- that is the smarter way.

Beat me to it.
@RacerX : The long and the short of it is this: Bowman the Beancounter fucked this team up the ass with a 40-grit sandpaper condom. Jones is expensive and immovable. Johnson is expensive and immovable. Murphy is expensive and immovable. We already got the albatross deals; we just signed them ourselves.

Beyond that there has to be some roster flexibility in case some of the prospects aren't Jeremy Colliton-level of worthless. Without dumping a few albatross contracts we got now, adding more will decrease that flexibility. Hence short-term deals which can be flipped.

 

[Raskolnikov]

The one time Bowman chooses size over skill we get Dach over Zegras

I thought Zegras was too skinny too. The real freaky bad luck part too is Zegras is probably stronger on his skates than a 21 year old Dach. Wiry over new age rubber bands.

 

[LordKOTL]

The one time Bowman chooses size over skill we get Dach over Zegras

I thought Zegras was too skinny too. The real freaky bad luck part too is Zegras is probably stronger on his skates than a 21 year old Dach. Wiry over new age rubber bands.

It just goes to show how bad Bowman was, but I still think we should have taken Byram. Defense is still a top need and it's nit like Byram had any more issues than Dach.

Granted, Bowman probably would have rushed him...but still. All we can do now is hope McI and Davidson can defuck the team.

 

[hawkinmontreal]

It just goes to show how bad Bowman was, but I still think we should have taken Byram. Defense is still a top need and it's nit like Byram had any more issues than Dach.

Granted, Bowman probably would have rushed him...but still. All we can do now is hope McI and Davidson can defuck the team.

yeah wishful thinking.

 

[LordKOTL]

yeah wishful thinking.

Maybe. We just don't know for good or for bad yet. Davisdon has what, less than a full season as a GM and he's buried behind Bowman's clusterfuckery.

So far I can't say I disagree wholly with any of his moves. Nylander for Lafferty was a win. Getting rid of Subban was a win. Getting rid of Coliton was a win (but also needed to happen). I miss Hagel but from a rebuilding standpoint moving him for Raddysh and Katchouk plus 2 1st rounders made complete sense. Moving Fleury made complete sense. Singing Vlassic was a decent enough move and he hasn't been any worse in the backend then the Joneses, Dehaan, and he's certainly been better than Gus.

He still has a metric shit-tonne of work left ahead of him, and he needs to prove he can acquire the right talent moving forward. But so far he hasn't been bad.

 

[Raskolnikov]

I'm referring to those who think Toews should "Just Retire" and those who think that it's in the 'hawks best interest to sell everything no matter what. I don't think you're in that boat.

With respect to "Just Retire", I think I've been clear on my stance on that: Toews is turning 34 very soon, and will be 34 after this season. If he "Just Retired", he would leave $6.9M on the table. He could always go LTIRetirment, but that would be a cap hit for us or someone else next season. Either way, next season will be his last shot at making that much money (Cap hit or actual salary). If he continues playing I don't think he'll command above $5M AAV (especially on a 35+ contract), and if not I give it a 99.9999999% chance that no matter what he does for the rest of his life he won't pull in that much per year ever again. Every pro sport player is the same with very few exceptions. Thus, I highly, Highly doubt he'd leave $6.9 on the table. Plus, I agree, I don't think he'll retire this summer. He's looked good in recent games, not 10.5M good, but certainly not a liability. It's not realistic to expect him to "just retire." It's realistic to expect him to try and get one last serious payday, be it playing or off of LTIRetirement, and if he decides to go that route some team is going to be hit with a 10.5M cap hit which needs to be on the books for the 1st day of the 2023 season in order to take advantage of LTIR overages--meaning that the opening day cap expenditure hit for us or someone else has to be 72M or less.

And, because his deal is over next season there's no real need to take in a bad deal. The team isn't going anywhere next season, so whether he stays or goes next season is irrelevant. Contrast to Seth Jones, who's with us until 2030 (Thanks Stan), as well as Murph until 2027 (Thanks again). If anything we should be trying to move THEM for an albatross deal that expire sooner that theirs; I don't think they can be moved for anything less. Toews? Yeah, you could push him for a pick or two and an albatross contract who expires in 2023 with cap retained and that's not a bad deal--assuming he wants out of course. But between now and a couple of years from now we need to try to get as much liquid cap as possible especially since Stan froze a lot of it needlessly. No more long-term albatross deals and getting enough mobile cap so that an actual member of the next core can be signed and locked in. Jones isn't it. Neither is Murph.

High-level draft picks are going to cost actual blue-chip talent. Talent like Debrincat. I don't think Toews would garner that without taking back a long-term bad contract that is as immovable as Jones' deal, and those types of deals will haunt us when some of the talent we can acquire needs a payday.

Maybe a reverse bridge would be good for Toews. Can we sign him for 2.5-3.5 for 4 years?

 

[hawkinmontreal]

Maybe. We just don't know for good or for bad yet. Davisdon has what, less than a full season as a GM and he's buried behind Bowman's clusterfuckery.

So far I can't say I disagree wholly with any of his moves. Nylander for Lafferty was a win. Getting rid of Subban was a win. Getting rid of Coliton was a win (but also needed to happen). I miss Hagel but from a rebuilding standpoint moving him for Raddysh and Katchouk plus 2 1st rounders made complete sense. Moving Fleury made complete sense. Singing Vlassic was a decent enough move and he hasn't been any worse in the backend then the Joneses, Dehaan, and he's certainly been better than Gus.

He still has a metric shit-tonne of work left ahead of him, and he needs to prove he can acquire the right talent moving forward. But so far he hasn't been bad.

Maybe. We just don't know for good or for bad yet. Davisdon has what, less than a full season as a GM and he's buried behind Bowman's clusterfuckery.

So far I can't say I disagree wholly with any of his moves. Nylander for Lafferty was a win. Getting rid of Subban was a win. Getting rid of Coliton was a win (but also needed to happen). I miss Hagel but from a rebuilding standpoint moving him for Raddysh and Katchouk plus 2 1st rounders made complete sense. Moving Fleury made complete sense. Singing Vlassic was a decent enough move and he hasn't been any worse in the backend then the Joneses, Dehaan, and he's certainly been better than Gus.

He still has a metric shit-tonne of work left ahead of him, and he needs to prove he can acquire the right talent moving forward. But so far he hasn't been bad.

Bowman has left Davidson such a disaster, in all fairness, there is no debate, he has done ok since he has been in charge, but, what he does with Toews and Kane moving forward will be the most important factors surrounding this team leading into the future. In all honesty he has a huge mountain to climb to even bring this team to a level of respectability never mind being competitive. Bowman fucked this team beyond comprehension and Rocky stood by and watch this team fall of the face of the planet.

 

[Bust]

Bowman has left Davidson such a disaster, in all fairness, there is no debate, he has done ok since he has been in charge, but, what he does with Toews and Kane moving forward will be the most important factors surrounding this team leading into the future. In all honesty he has a huge mountain to climb to even bring this team to a level of respectability never mind being competitive. Bowman fucked this team beyond comprehension and Rocky stood by and watch this team fall of the face of the planet.

your guy davidson is in his honeymoon the next few years. we'll see what happens in the next 10 years and if he can yield 3 cups like your boy bowman, amirite?