Sweet Spot Blog: Who's better: White Sox versus Cubs

[TC in Mississippi]

NO a rebuild means taking a bad team and making them a potential contender. You can tank years in hopes of doing that (The Theo method) or you can try to resurrect the minors while building the major league team. The White Sox added a ton of young talent via trades, FA signings, and drafting. (Abreu, Gillaspie, Eaton, Garcia, Shark (by trading away guys like Semien) and have Rodon to be added.) They added nice pieces with Cabrera, Laroche, Jennnigs, Duke, Robertson all while keeping in budget and not really risking the continuing process of rebuilding the minors which went from basically dead last to 12.

I think Rick Hahn has done a remarkable job with the White Sox. These are two very different organizations and the GMs had different marching orders. Both look to be much improved in 2015. The Cubs stated intention is to build a Cardinals like organization where they will be a Division contender every year except for those inevitable injury years. We'll soon see if they're successful in that. The White Sox have an organizational idea that they pick and choose their spots hopefully never getting so far away from contention that they can't get back in an offseason or maybe two. Both are completely valid approaches. I mean how many teams seem to be operating without a plan? You know how you'll judge how they've done? Take a look in 6 or 7 years and count the playoff appearances. Until then saying this is better or that is better is kind of pointless.

 

[chibears55]

going from 2nd to last in the minors to 12th while putting a quality team on the field is quite good. remember...none of theos moves with ALL these specs are proven yet accept for rizzo. so technically the cubs have nothing built just yet


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I dont know the sox system so besides adding rodon whom i saw was 14th ranked prospect who else is in their system that helped them leap around 15 spots? Or was it just a case of rodon being highly ranked and they happened to leap frog a few teams that called up a few of their prospects?

Listening to the baseball people when they talk about the minors, they all seem to feel that where the sox struggle right now besides rodon...


Castro is proven with Rizzo and besides Soler, Baez, Alcantara and eventually Bryant the rest of their moves brought in major league talent to fill out the starting 8..

So saying ALL these specs, were only really talking about 3 kids this year in Soler, Baez, and Bryant who will have a major inpact in the starting unit.. Alcantara if Baez struggles. .

So technically yes their built with the players they want at each position but sure we dont know yet what those 3 kids will do for a full season yet.

 

[brett05]

The difference is great enough. And having the best farm possible shouldn't be a goal? Surely you jest. The Cardinals have one of the top systems.

I don't jest at all. The goal isn't to have the best farm. The goal is to win the World Series and the farm helps that. #29 is a lot further away from #12 than #12 is from #1 even if that is a goal.

 

[brett05]

I think Rick Hahn has done a remarkable job with the White Sox. These are two very different organizations and the GMs had different marching orders. Both look to be much improved in 2015. The Cubs stated intention is to build a Cardinals like organization where they will be a Division contender every year except for those inevitable injury years. We'll soon see if they're successful in that. The White Sox have an organizational idea that they pick and choose their spots hopefully never getting so far away from contention that they can't get back in an offseason or maybe two. Both are completely valid approaches. I mean how many teams seem to be operating without a plan? You know how you'll judge how they've done? Take a look in 6 or 7 years and count the playoff appearances. Until then saying this is better or that is better is kind of pointless.

Throwing away major league seasons is never good. That's been my only statement I think as it relates to GM's and planning a baseball season from top to bottom.

Both Chicago Teams are primed to possibly be contenders for the next decade. One team did it faster is all I am saying.

 

[Parade_Rain]

I don't jest at all. The goal isn't to have the best farm. The goal is to win the World Series and the farm helps that. #29 is a lot further away from #12 than #12 is from #1 even if that is a goal.

Obviously you don't want to admit why the Cardinals have sustained success. They have one of the best farm systems and are winning WS.

 

[chibears55]

NO a rebuild means taking a bad team and making them a potential contender. You can tank years in hopes of doing that (The Theo method) or you can try to resurrect the minors while building the major league team. The White Sox added a ton of young talent via trades, FA signings, and drafting. (Abreu, Gillaspie, Eaton, Garcia, Shark (by trading away guys like Semien) and have Rodon to be added.) They added nice pieces with Cabrera, Laroche, Jennnigs, Duke, Robertson all while keeping in budget and not really risking the continuing process of rebuilding the minors which went from basically dead last to 12.

I ask again. .. besides rodon, who have they added to their system the last 2 yrs that has high potential to inpact the major league roster soon...

Ton of young talent added ? The only true young talent i see from your list there is Abreu..
the others are good but nothing more then like the cubs have in Hammels, Fowler, and Montero ...

 

[TC in Mississippi]

Obviously you don't want to admit why the Cardinals have sustained success. They have one of the best farm systems and are winning WS.

Having a great farm system gains you flexibility but there has to be more to it than that. San Diego had a top 3 farm for 5 years and didn't get anywhere which I would argue represented a lack of a plan. They weren't bringing up the right mix of guys and they weren't trading guys to find the mix. Yes they traded Rizzo for Andrew Cashner which was a nice move if not completely even but they failed to make other moves like that. Now they've got a new GM who's come in a blown it up making trade after trade and they no closer to winning to me. Regardless of talent in the minors you still have to have a plan and execute that plan. Some organizations settling for middling farm systems if for no other reason that they don't wait on their talent preferring instead to trade multiple low to mid level prospects for sure things.

Personally I like the Cardinals methodology. They maintain a strong farm and they trade prospects for major league talent they got similar prospects back but at lower levels. They also stockpile high velo arms at all levels of the system. That's the part the Cubs are emulating that no one seems to notice. Boston does the same thing. Low risk, high reward pitchers are all over all three of these systems. They project a certain percentage of wash outs from the get go.

 

[brett05]

Obviously you don't want to admit why the Cardinals have sustained success. They have one of the best farm systems and are winning WS.

Why would I not want to admit that? Bringing the Cardinals organization is not part of the discussion on what Hahn has done the last 18 months nor Theo in his 3+ years on the job.

I don't want to be snarky, so .... I am missing the connection possibly but I don't think right now that I am.

 

[brett05]

I ask again. .. besides rodon, who have they added to their system the last 2 yrs that has high potential to inpact the major league roster soon...

Ton of young talent added ? The only true young talent i see from your list there is Abreu..
the others are good but nothing more then like the cubs have in Hammels, Fowler, and Montero ...

What are you talking about? Montero at this point is the equivelant of Tyler Flowers. You're comparing Hammels and Shark since he's the only SP I have mentioned. Eaton is better than Fowler right now and while it is very close both are headed in opposite directions in their careers.

Rodon is far and away our best prospect. Anderson and Johnson are two of our key pieces to our future infield. Montas as well seems to be a steal just missing the top 100. We have a few more pitchers that are grooming to be major league starters as well. But if you are trying to say that the Cubs hitting specs plus Edwards and Pierce are better than the White Sox prospects, let me say...DUH! The Cubs prospects are better. Certainly bat wise they are. Zero doubt about it. I also am very happy from an organization where the White Sox are.

 

[brett05]

Having a great farm system gains you flexibility but there has to be more to it than that. San Diego had a top 3 farm for 5 years and didn't get anywhere which I would argue represented a lack of a plan. They weren't bringing up the right mix of guys and they weren't trading guys to find the mix. Yes they traded Rizzo for Andrew Cashner which was a nice move if not completely even but they failed to make other moves like that. Now they've got a new GM who's come in a blown it up making trade after trade and they no closer to winning to me. Regardless of talent in the minors you still have to have a plan and execute that plan. Some organizations settling for middling farm systems if for no other reason that they don't wait on their talent preferring instead to trade multiple low to mid level prospects for sure things.

Personally I like the Cardinals methodology. They maintain a strong farm and they trade prospects for major league talent they got similar prospects back but at lower levels. They also stockpile high velo arms at all levels of the system. That's the part the Cubs are emulating that no one seems to notice. Boston does the same thing. Low risk, high reward pitchers are all over all three of these systems. They project a certain percentage of wash outs from the get go.

I'd say the Cubs if they want this have not done so from a pitching end. I'd almost be inclined to say that this is what the White Sox have done in the minors from a pitching standpoint. The Cubs system is stronger right now but exclusively from the strength of the bats. I think the Sox are more balanced in the minors but not as talented for sure overall as the Cubs.

 

[Parade_Rain]

Why would I not want to admit that? Bringing the Cardinals organization is not part of the discussion on what Hahn has done the last 18 months nor Theo in his 3+ years on the job.

I don't want to be snarky, so .... I am missing the connection possibly but I don't think right now that I am.

The Cardinals are the model Theo is after. He has even stated such. That's why they belong in the discussion. You are patting yourself on the back for your 73 win team being #12 while the Cardinals were #6 and won their division and continue to make the playoffs. The year prior, they were ranked #2.

 

[TC in Mississippi]

I'd say the Cubs if they want this have not done so from a pitching end. I'd almost be inclined to say that this is what the White Sox have done in the minors from a pitching standpoint. The Cubs system is stronger right now but exclusively from the strength of the bats. I think the Sox are more balanced in the minors but not as talented for sure overall as the Cubs.

the Cubs have gambled that the market inequity of right handed power would be more valuable than pitching. There's starting to be evidence that they were right. There are several in depth pieces on this on Fangraphs on other sites. The proof will be in the pudding though. To me if they have to go spend $230 million on a Price or a Zimmermann next year then they've gambled wrong. I don't think they're going to do that though. that being said the Cubs do have some nice arms in the system but they're all several years away, Duane Underwood being the most promising, and attrition will take it's toll.

 

[brett05]

The Cardinals are the model Theo is after. He has even stated such. That's why they belong in the discussion. You are patting yourself on the back for your 73 win team being #12 while the Cardinals were #6 and won their division and continue to make the playoffs. The year prior, they were ranked #2.

The Cubs have not pursued the Cardnials model instead going with bats instead of balance in the minors. The Cardinals are not part of the what the two teams have done even if there is a similarity or a goal to emulate. The comparison is the Cubs and White Sox. No one doesn't understand why the Sox finished with 73 wins. Given the injuries they had coupled with atrocious bullpen it's amazing they had that many. I'm patting Hahn (not myself) on the back for the moves he's made which overall has put the team on track with a re-org build. This very well can be the year the Cubs can say the same thing. It all depends on the big league club.

Again I think it's worth saying again, both teams should be strong for being above .500 which for me makes them contenders for the next decade.

 

[Bear Pride]

This thread is showing an interesting transformation, imo, between the Sox and Cubs fans. It appears to me that the Sox fans are becoming the bigger homers. Yeah, the Sox do everything right and the Cubs don't do anything right. LOL.

 

[brett05]

This thread is showing an interesting transformation, imo, between the Sox and Cubs fans. It appears to me that the Sox fans are becoming the bigger homers. Yeah, the Sox do everything right and the Cubs don't do anything right. LOL.

I've certainly not said that in the past few days on this thread

 

[TC in Mississippi]

I've certainly not said that in the past few days on this thread

Yeah, I didn't think you had. There's some interpretation going on. Wouldn't the baseline be this; neither team has proven anything at all but both teams have made some nice moves. Everything else is just noise. I'm too old to beat on my chest.

 

[Parade_Rain]

The Cubs have not pursued the Cardnials model instead going with bats instead of balance in the minors. The Cardinals are not part of the what the two teams have done even if there is a similarity or a goal to emulate.

:facepalm:

The comparison is the Cubs and White Sox.

#12 is not #1. The purpose of a MiLB system is to develop true prospects that can help the club or be traded. "Balance" doesn't have a lot to do with it at this stage of the game for either GM. That takes time. As TC pointed out above, the cubs have nice pitching prospects. They just happen to be at the lower levels yet. You're implying that Theo could take a century of losing and turn the barge on a dime. Solid organizations don't work that way.

No one doesn't understand why the Sox finished with 73 wins. Given the injuries they had coupled with atrocious bullpen it's amazing they had that many.

Sounds like homer excuses to me.

I'm patting Hahn (not myself) on the back for the moves he's made which overall has put the team on track with a re-org build. This very well can be the year the Cubs can say the same thing. It all depends on the big league club.

Again I think it's worth saying again, both teams should be strong for being above .500 which for me makes them contenders for the next decade.

Hahn has done a really nice job. Sox don't have the pockets of the Cubs. We will have to see how long their window lasts. You should concern yourself with the Sox farm system. The Cubs began getting set up years ago when they chose to spend money on international operations. It matters. The development pipeline takes time. Although the Sox MLB budget can't compete with the Cubs, they can become very similar to that team you don't think belongs in the discussion. That's long-term winning.

 

[brett05]

Yeah, I didn't think you had. There's some interpretation going on. Wouldn't the baseline be this; neither team has proven anything at all but both teams have made some nice moves. Everything else is just noise. I'm too old to beat on my chest.

I think that's pretty accurate. Though I think both teams can beat their chests on a few things. Ex. Sale, Lester, Rizzo, Abreu, Ramirez, Castro

 

[brett05]

#12 is not #1.

You keep trumpeting this....smh

The purpose of a MiLB system is to develop true prospects that can help the club or be traded.

Stop right here. Ding! Winner! This is all that matters. Not your ranking.

As TC pointed out above, the cubs have nice pitching prospects. They just happen to be at the lower levels yet.

The White Sox have that too and more so when compared to each other. But it ain't worth talking about yet at this stage.

You're implying that Theo could take a century of losing and turn the barge on a dime. Solid organizations don't work that way.

Solid organizations turn it around as quickly as possible. That has always been my stance.

Sounds like homer excuses to me.

It's factual. Can't help it when the facts support my favorite team nor when the facts speak against my favorite team (Cubs have a better minor league system, our 73 wins hurt more than the Cubs 73 wins)

Hahn has done a really nice job. Sox don't have the pockets of the Cubs. We will have to see how long their window lasts. You should concern yourself with the Sox farm system. The Cubs began getting set up years ago when they chose to spend money on international operations. It matters. The development pipeline takes time. Although the Sox MLB budget can't compete with the Cubs, they can become very similar to that team you don't think belongs in the discussion. That's long-term winning.

Sox haven't really had any issues in getting who they wanted from guys like Abreu and Ramirez and Tank (Though Tank turned to be a flop. hey it happens to all teams).
We shall see on this for both sides. Right now I think most would pick the Sox immediately and long term it's a toss up with bright futures for both clubs.

Theo has done a great job in restocking the hitters for the Cubs in the minors. Let's see what happens next.

 

[chibears55]

What are you talking about? Montero at this point is the equivelant of Tyler Flowers. You're comparing Hammels and Shark since he's the only SP I have mentioned. Eaton is better than Fowler right now and while it is very close both are headed in opposite directions in their careers.

Rodon is far and away our best prospect. Anderson and Johnson are two of our key pieces to our future infield. Montas as well seems to be a steal just missing the top 100. We have a few more pitchers that are grooming to be major league starters as well. But if you are trying to say that the Cubs hitting specs plus Edwards and Pierce are better than the White Sox prospects, let me say...DUH! The Cubs prospects are better. Certainly bat wise they are. Zero doubt about it. I also am very happy from an organization where the White Sox are.

Im not comparing stats or players... you said the sox brought in good young players and used those guys as examples. . Im just saying those players are just the same as the ones the cubs brought in...

The subject was about you saying the sox rebuilt..
We have a difference in opinion on what a rebuild is and that ok...

To me the sox basically retooled their major league team by replacing some players with bringing in veterans via FA or trade..

the cubs not only rebuilt the farm system, they unloaded aging and high cost players and rebuilt the major league team from scratch..
though it not a finished product yet....