Tanaka Watch Thread (Cubs Edition)

[CSF77]

That's an assumption you're making about the 4A types. Look I'm not guaranteeing anything here. I'm simply saying there is a chance. Vitters for example would be far from the first touted prospect to struggle at an early age and later turn it into a decent career. I'm not even suggesting his peak is a star. But why couldn't Vitters end up at say a Michael Cuddyer level? And quite frankly, if a 24 year old Vitters ends up at that sort of level he's leaps and bounds more valuable than Soriano is at this point. The fact is if they ever want to make the playoffs they need to find a future left fielder because it's not going to be Soriano. So why not start looking now?

Black, money and the opportunity for some other player to get time might not hold a ton of value either but you don't know until players get a chance to see the field. Last year around this same time I'm sure you would have called Schierholtz 4A garbage. I'm not propping him up as a star. He's a decent role player if he's on a playoff caliber team. But at least he is someone who could figure into your 3-5 year timeline. Soriano simply doesn't. It's probably fairly unlikely any of the guys who play LF this year will be long term starters. But even if they aren't, maybe you find someone who can be a key utility guy. If Vitters proves he can hit MLB pitching well enough to stay in the majors he very easily could be a decent back up since he can play corner OF and corner infield. That's not sexy but winning teams need those types of players. If Lake does the same he can play likely all OF spots as well as possibly being able to fill in at MI positions.

Soriano isn't going to make you more happy. Were you thrilled to see the cubs from April through June because I seriously doubt anyone here would say that they were. What will make you happy is a winning team and winning teams need long term solutions not 1 year fixes.

Vitters would have to bash to get a spot. My gut feeling is he lost a year. They want him at a corner OF spot and he did not get the time needed last year to be competent at a corner OF spot. I'm still seeing him at Iowa for a 3rd year learning the OF.

Olt on the other hand just has to prove that he has rebounded and he should be given a spot. His glove is already proven at 3B. We know what he will bring is low BA/Hight BB (which even out some) and a good SLG. when he is right.

So I've said this before I'm seeing Vitters at Iowa at LF with Lake getting his AB's at Wrigg.

Now with the way this article was presented (believe me they will have to push him now that tanaka fell through.)

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article/chc...md=20140113&content_id=66530734&vkey=news_chc

Baez hoping for a short stop at Triple-A Iowa

Ya the thing is about Cubs.com it is all PR. They rarely break stories about rumors. They didn't even post a Tanaka story. Mostly BS crapper feel good stuff.

But this one pops up right after Tanaka dropped the bomb....ya they are going to have to push him to generate sales.

 

[Boobaby1]

Vitters would have to bash to get a spot. My gut feeling is he lost a year. They want him at a corner OF spot and he did not get the time needed last year to be competent at a corner OF spot. I'm still seeing him at Iowa for a 3rd year learning the OF.

Olt on the other hand just has to prove that he has rebounded and he should be given a spot. His glove is already proven at 3B. We know what he will bring is low BA/Hight BB (which even out some) and a good SLG. when he is right.

So I've said this before I'm seeing Vitters at Iowa at LF with Lake getting his AB's at Wrigg.

Now with the way this article was presented (believe me they will have to push him now that tanaka fell through.)

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article/chc...md=20140113&content_id=66530734&vkey=news_chc

Baez hoping for a short stop at Triple-A Iowa

Ya the thing is about Cubs.com it is all PR. They rarely break stories about rumors. They didn't even post a Tanaka story. Mostly BS crapper feel good stuff.

But this one pops up right after Tanaka dropped the bomb....ya they are going to have to push him to generate sales.

Fair enough. But, I see the brass milking Baez like they did Rizzo. Now, Rizzo needed the at bats to prove himself and adjust.

Even if Baez rakes, they will not start his clock in an off year IMO. Really, what would be the point?

Do the Cubs have to milk it? No!

I think they can get just as much buzz by waiting until late June as they would bringing him up in May and they are going to penny pinch on a player like him. A year wasted is a year wasted any way you look at it.

Also factor in that things could get a little more interesting around the trade deadline.

They may need him at that point to salvage some of the positive attitude moving forward if they indeed start trading pieces again like Shark, Castro, or someone else.

 

[patg006]

That's your problem right there. We don't care about Jim Hendry as much as you think we do. Most of us are firmly aware that he's two and a half years into our past now. And most of us also are firmly aware that our current GM could also be fired two or three years down the road, though it's not really a topic of discussion at the moment because we're not as obsessed with Theo's presence as you are.

Dodged the point there, cupcake.

I have yet to see anyone not named Steve Rosenbloom, a columnist for the trib people hate because he tries to be Jay Mariotti; get on the cubs' case. Theo has a Derrick Rose-like free pass in this city for reasons I can't explain. Both could **** up a 1 car funeral and nobody would hate them here, but if someone else screwed up, fans would want their heads. I'm just pointing out that Theo's predecessor would have been killed had he done some of the same things Boy Blunder has done, except boy blunder gets a pass. Jim Hendry isn't here anymore? Holy shit. Groundbreaking news brought to us once again by DJ. I know he's not here anymore, genius.

At this point, I want Theo out. He's a used car salesman who clearly pulled one over you. This fanbase deserves better than his 'just trust me/have patience' campaign that has produced nothing.

 

[SilenceS]

Dodged the point there, cupcake.

I have yet to see anyone not named Steve Rosenbloom, a columnist for the trib people hate because he tries to be Jay Mariotti; get on the cubs' case. Theo has a Derrick Rose-like free pass in this city for reasons I can't explain. Both could **** up a 1 car funeral and nobody would hate them here, but if someone else screwed up, fans would want their heads. I'm just pointing out that Theo's predecessor would have been killed had he done some of the same things Boy Blunder has done, except boy blunder gets a pass. Jim Hendry isn't here anymore? Holy shit. Groundbreaking news brought to us once again by DJ. I know he's not here anymore, genius.

At this point, I want Theo out. He's a used car salesman who clearly pulled one over you. This fanbase deserves better than his 'just trust me/have patience' campaign that has produced nothing.

He will be here for all 5 years. Ricketts has no plans to change his direction now. Now, after 5 years and say Baez bust and Bryant and Soler dont do much then yea. Ricketts will sacrifice him to the people.

If Theo was in Egypts land, let my Theo go!

 

[Boobaby1]

That's an assumption you're making about the 4A types. Look I'm not guaranteeing anything here. I'm simply saying there is a chance. Vitters for example would be far from the first touted prospect to struggle at an early age and later turn it into a decent career. I'm not even suggesting his peak is a star. But why couldn't Vitters end up at say a Michael Cuddyer level? And quite frankly, if a 24 year old Vitters ends up at that sort of level he's leaps and bounds more valuable than Soriano is at this point. The fact is if they ever want to make the playoffs they need to find a future left fielder because it's not going to be Soriano. So why not start looking now?

Black, money and the opportunity for some other player to get time might not hold a ton of value either but you don't know until players get a chance to see the field. Last year around this same time I'm sure you would have called Schierholtz 4A garbage. I'm not propping him up as a star. He's a decent role player if he's on a playoff caliber team. But at least he is someone who could figure into your 3-5 year timeline. Soriano simply doesn't. It's probably fairly unlikely any of the guys who play LF this year will be long term starters. But even if they aren't, maybe you find someone who can be a key utility guy. If Vitters proves he can hit MLB pitching well enough to stay in the majors he very easily could be a decent back up since he can play corner OF and corner infield. That's not sexy but winning teams need those types of players. If Lake does the same he can play likely all OF spots as well as possibly being able to fill in at MI positions.

Soriano isn't going to make you more happy. Were you thrilled to see the cubs from April through June because I seriously doubt anyone here would say that they were. What will make you happy is a winning team and winning teams need long term solutions not 1 year fixes.

Soriano was not a one year fix, nor is Lake, Vitters and the whole "Hee Haw" gang. They suck. Period!

This assessing every player in the Cubs organization to hopefully find out that one player might defy all odds and become a serviceable player is getting really old.

If Lake is a possible answer short term or long term, why didn't they just use him as the platoon player in RF instead of purchasing Ruggiano? Could that have worked also? Sure would have saved some money don't ya think? Soriano, Sweeney, and a Schierholtz/Lake platoon is better than what they are throwing out there now. How could it not be? And it isn't as if Soriano had 3 more years on his contract and they are paying it anyways.

It amazes me that some people would rather send off players to see what possible "lightening in a bottle" chances in the farm system might arrive, when in reality, the Cubs are not putting the best 9 players on the field.

If you think I am in the minority, maybe I am. However, I feel the same way Shark does, and don't think that there aren't a ton more players feeling the same way. Players are no different than fans. Everyone hates losing.

 

[CSF77]

Fair enough. But, I see the brass milking Baez like they did Rizzo. Now, Rizzo needed the at bats to prove himself and adjust.

Dude you should know that the only reason they *held* Rizzo back was to take back his P/T wasted on the Pads. Hoyer admitted that he was not ready in SD and pushed him anyways. They had LaHair as a place holder to recoup that time.

Was it necessary? Looking at his production last year that is in question.

It comes down to adjustments. He dominated AAA when he was up and they pushed the button when they took back the time then they extended him anyways. (made the whole endeavor pointless to begin with)


Take into account a sense of urgency.

Year 1: Brand new feel. Did not add any thing.

Year 2: Added EJaxx and he flopped. Sales went down 500k tickets.

Year 3: Failed to land big fish and did nothing.

Ya guess what? I'm guessing another 500k drop in sales. Ya that will go over well.

Like I said they *may* have little choice here. If he blows up Iowa in April they will push his button.

Notice they promoted Lake with no care about super 2 status. It is because they are trying to extend the youth that they bring up. If that youth wants to test F/A then they get treated like Shark and Garza did.

So in view of everything ya they will promote him early to net a boost in revenues.

Face it most here will be pretty interested how he impacts the team.

Only way he gets held back is if he struggles to adjust in Apr then he will go 1 month at a time.

 

[beckdawg]

It amazes me that some people would rather send off players to see what possible "lightening in a bottle" chances in the farm system might arrive, when in reality, the Cubs are not putting the best 9 players on the field.

Their "best 9" doesn't get them to the playoffs. Sorry but I don't want to sign up for a 75-80 win circle jerk if they would even be good enough to get to that. The "Hee Haw" gang as you put it aren't going to be stars to carry the team most likely. That should be some of Almora, Baez, Bryant, ans Soler. However, if one of them turns into a Cuddyer level player that is one fewer player they have to find down the line because Cuddyer can play on a playoff contender. It's really that simple.

Maybe all the cubs prospects fail. Maybe they sucks for the next 10 years. But Soriano doesn't get them any closer to the playoffs. So frankly I don't give 2 shits if he helps them win 2-3 more games if those 2-3 games aren't putting the cubs in the playoffs.

 

[chibears55]

Yoon Seok-min has yet to sign with a Major League team but he'll be leaving to the U.S. once again in hopes to finally sign with a team.
On Wednesday, the righty will leave to the U.S., once again as his agent Scott Boras stated that the Boston Red Sox and the Minnesota Twins are showing interest in the pitcher. And while, his previous shoulder injury is the only concern for the teams experts believe that the 28-year-old needs to sign as a reliever, and not a starter.

http://www.arirang.co.kr/News/News_View.asp?nseq=155974&category=6

 

[CSF77]

Yoon Seok-min has yet to sign with a Major League team but he'll be leaving to the U.S. once again in hopes to finally sign with a team.
On Wednesday, the righty will leave to the U.S., once again as his agent Scott Boras stated that the Boston Red Sox and the Minnesota Twins are showing interest in the pitcher. And while, his previous shoulder injury is the only concern for the teams experts believe that the 28-year-old needs to sign as a reliever, and not a starter.

http://www.arirang.co.kr/News/News_View.asp?nseq=155974&category=6

Care less. They have him pegged as a BP arm. Previous shoulder injury. After the dibacle of giving Baker 6 mil to rehab and about a year of watching Garza go through injury. Not to mention watching last year as your closer goes into TJ and wastes 1.5-2 years of his 2 year deal. Then get into trading Maholm for Viz who has not tossed a pitch for the Cubs sense that trade.

Do you really think it is a good idea to keep taking on these types?

 

[patg006]

Yoon Seok-min has yet to sign with a Major League team but he'll be leaving to the U.S. once again in hopes to finally sign with a team.
On Wednesday, the righty will leave to the U.S., once again as his agent Scott Boras stated that the Boston Red Sox and the Minnesota Twins are showing interest in the pitcher. And while, his previous shoulder injury is the only concern for the teams experts believe that the 28-year-old needs to sign as a reliever, and not a starter.

http://www.arirang.co.kr/News/News_View.asp?nseq=155974&category=6

:fap:

 

[Boobaby1]

Their "best 9" doesn't get them to the playoffs. Sorry but I don't want to sign up for a 75-80 win circle jerk if they would even be good enough to get to that. The "Hee Haw" gang as you put it aren't going to be stars to carry the team most likely. That should be some of Almora, Baez, Bryant, ans Soler. However, if one of them turns into a Cuddyer level player that is one fewer player they have to find down the line because Cuddyer can play on a playoff contender. It's really that simple.

Maybe all the cubs prospects fail. Maybe they sucks for the next 10 years. But Soriano doesn't get them any closer to the playoffs. So frankly I don't give 2 shits if he helps them win 2-3 more games if those 2-3 games aren't putting the cubs in the playoffs.

Apparently you must not care because you would rather put players out their who are destined to fail and give the Cubs at least 2-3 more losses per year. Shark gives them 2-3 wins a year and doesn't like losing, so does Castillo, Wood, and others and they still are no closer to the playoffs. Trade em' all. Is that how good teams are built?

My take is you put the best players out there, and upgrade on weaknesses whenever and wherever you can. The sooner, the better.

They have downgraded LF, 2B and 3B remain a crap fest with nothing, and question marks still lay at every position except for Castillo at catcher. For a team that was one of the worst in hitting, they have added a platoon player to take Hairston's place. Whoopie!

More power to you if you are okay with this?

 

[DewsSox79]

Apparently you must not care because you would rather put players out their who are destined to fail and give the Cubs at least 2-3 more losses per year. Shark gives them 2-3 wins a year and doesn't like losing, so does Castillo, Wood, and others and they still are no closer to the playoffs. Trade em' all. Is that how good teams are built?

My take is you put the best players out there, and upgrade on weaknesses whenever and wherever you can. The sooner, the better.

They have downgraded LF, 2B and 3B remain a crap fest with nothing, and question marks still lay at every position except for Castillo at catcher. For a team that was one of the worst in hitting, they have added a platoon player to take Hairston's place. Whoopie!

More power to you if you are okay with this?

who likes to lose?


Sent from my Rotary Phone using Tapatalk

 

[Boobaby1]

who likes to lose?


Sent from my Rotary Phone using Tapatalk

Funniest thing ever. LMAO! opcorn:


http://oi39.tinypic.com/2nkv02h.jpg

 

[CSF77]

Pre all-star game:

3B: Ransom: .278/.364/.639 9 HR 20 RBI's
Valbuena: .236/.345/.394 8 HR 29 RBI's

LF Sori .259/.288/.472 16 HR 49 RBI's

3B up to that point produced 17 HR's and 49 RBI's while Sori produced the same production.

RF:
Schierholtz: .269/.327/.498 11 HR 34 RBI
Hairston: .172/.232/.434 8 HR 19 RBI's

RF combined: 19 HR's and 53 RBI's.

Uhm ya ok.

Those 2 manufactured positions kept pace with Sori. IE they were all performing at about the same WAR value.

At that point:

Rizzo: .241/.328/.441 13 HR 54 RBI
Castro: .245/.283/.357 6 HR 29 RBI
Barney: .222/.272/.344 6 HR 26 RBI's.

After this point Sori only got 19 AB's so it is really pointless to go past the ASG. Yes his impact in the line up was gone and the cards fell some but up to that point he was not carrying the load.

 

[Boobaby1]

Pre all-star game:

3B: Ransom: .278/.364/.639 9 HR 20 RBI's
Valbuena: .236/.345/.394 8 HR 29 RBI's

LF Sori .259/.288/.472 16 HR 49 RBI's

3B up to that point produced 17 HR's and 49 RBI's while Sori produced the same production.

RF:
Schierholtz: .269/.327/.498 11 HR 34 RBI
Hairston: .172/.232/.434 8 HR 19 RBI's

RF combined: 19 HR's and 53 RBI's.

Uhm ya ok.

Those 2 manufactured positions kept pace with Sori. IE they were all performing at about the same WAR value.

At that point:

Rizzo: .241/.328/.441 13 HR 54 RBI
Castro: .245/.283/.357 6 HR 29 RBI
Barney: .222/.272/.344 6 HR 26 RBI's.

After this point Sori only got 19 AB's so it is really pointless to go past the ASG. Yes his impact in the line up was gone and the cards fell some but up to that point he was not carrying the load.

Maybe they should have platooned Rizzo against lefties who sported a robust .189/.282/.342 and not batted Barney at all.

That would make the Cubs tougher right there with those two moves.

We will see how these guys play this year and if they can equal their career best numbers. Lets see how good Nate is in the 4-hole with no protection to speak of and coming off of his best power numbers ever.

Now that pitchers are aware, they will adjust.

 

[beckdawg]

Apparently you must not care because you would rather put players out their who are destined to fail and give the Cubs at least 2-3 more losses per year. Shark gives them 2-3 wins a year and doesn't like losing, so does Castillo, Wood, and others and they still are no closer to the playoffs. Trade em' all. Is that how good teams are built?

So you're basically suggesting every player who's not say a top 100 prospect is destined to fail? Brett Gardner, Denard Span, Jon Jay, Michael Bourn, Shane Victorino, and Coco Crisp were all guys who didn't make top 100 lists and have a similar skill set to Lake. Jim Edmonds and Matt Holliday were other outfielders who weren't top 100 prospects. It's not even like Lake, Vitters and Sweeney have put up bad numbers. Lake hit .279/.341/.432 and .295/.341/.462 in AA and AAA the past two years along with .284/.332/.428 in the majors. Vitters hit .304/.356/.513 and .295/.380/.511 the past 2 years at AAA. Sweeney hit .266/.324/.448 in the majors last year.

Sorry but Soriano's .244/.289/.469, .262/.322/.499 and .254/.287/.467 the past 2.5 years with the cubs is far from something I'm concerned about losing. It's as simple as the fact he didn't get on base. Sure he hit 26, 32, and 17 HRs respectively but that's all he did as he also only had 50, 68 and 47 runs respectively for a #4 hitter which is horrible. Lake doesn't have Soriano's power but if you project his MLB numbers last year over 600 PAs he'd have 62 runs and possibly more as you would expect him to improve as he sees more major league pitching. Getting on base wins games. The cubs lost 91, 101 and 54 games with Soriano and were 176-246(0.417) with him. Over the past 3 years the cubs were 20th, 28th, and 28th in OBP and Soriano was a large part of that.

So yeah I'm fine with losing Soriano because it's not like he was some bastion of greatness stuck with a sea of crap. He in fact was a large part of the reason they lost. He was an incredibly streaky player who would hit well for a week, maybe a month and then do nothing. Soriano hit .219/.265/.460 in the 2nd half of 2011. This isn't an aberration. He hit .263/.291/.343 in March/April and .233/.236/.437 in june last year. Frankly, I'm not sure it's even safe to say Soriano will be better than Lake next year. Lake in the 2nd half hit .284/.332/.428 with a wOBA of .335 and a wRC+ of 109 in 254 PAs. Soriano's first half was .259/.288/.472 with a wOBA of .326 and a wRC+ of 102 in 361 PAs. Obviously they provide different things but it's sure as hell not like the cubs don't need a #1/2 hitter depending on where you slot Castro.

You ask "why wouldn't you play your best players?" It's entirely possible they are. If Soriano hits like he did in the 2nd half of 2011 or March, April and June last year then I'd rather have Lake.

 

[Boobaby1]

So you're basically suggesting every player who's not say a top 100 prospect is destined to fail? Brett Gardner, Denard Span, Jon Jay, Michael Bourn, Shane Victorino, and Coco Crisp were all guys who didn't make top 100 lists and have a similar skill set to Lake. Jim Edmonds and Matt Holliday were other outfielders who weren't top 100 prospects. It's not even like Lake, Vitters and Sweeney have put up bad numbers. Lake hit .279/.341/.432 and .295/.341/.462 in AA and AAA the past two years along with .284/.332/.428 in the majors. Vitters hit .304/.356/.513 and .295/.380/.511 the past 2 years at AAA. Sweeney hit .266/.324/.448 in the majors last year.

Sorry but Soriano's .244/.289/.469, .262/.322/.499 and .254/.287/.467 the past 2.5 years with the cubs is far from something I'm concerned about losing. It's as simple as the fact he didn't get on base. Sure he hit 26, 32, and 17 HRs respectively but that's all he did as he also only had 50, 68 and 47 runs respectively for a #4 hitter which is horrible. Lake doesn't have Soriano's power but if you project his MLB numbers last year over 600 PAs he'd have 62 runs and possibly more as you would expect him to improve as he sees more major league pitching. Getting on base wins games. The cubs lost 91, 101 and 54 games with Soriano and were 176-246(0.417) with him. Over the past 3 years the cubs were 20th, 28th, and 28th in OBP and Soriano was a large part of that.

So yeah I'm fine with losing Soriano because it's not like he was some bastion of greatness stuck with a sea of crap. He in fact was a large part of the reason they lost. He was an incredibly streaky player who would hit well for a week, maybe a month and then do nothing. Soriano hit .219/.265/.460 in the 2nd half of 2011. This isn't an aberration. He hit .263/.291/.343 in March/April and .233/.236/.437 in june last year. Frankly, I'm not sure it's even safe to say Soriano will be better than Lake next year. Lake in the 2nd half hit .284/.332/.428 with a wOBA of .335 and a wRC+ of 109 in 254 PAs. Soriano's first half was .259/.288/.472 with a wOBA of .326 and a wRC+ of 102 in 361 PAs. Obviously they provide different things but it's sure as hell not like the cubs don't need a #1/2 hitter depending on where you slot Castro.

You ask "why wouldn't you play your best players?" It's entirely possible they are. If Soriano hits like he did in the 2nd half of 2011 or March, April and June last year then I'd rather have Lake.

Who in the hell said anything about top 100 prospects? You are the one talking about the trash heap in the minors like Vitters who couldn't hit his weight, and then say what he might become some day because he is still young or that he was injured. You are hoping for way too much here.

And as far as the Soriano thing, I know he is streaky and I have stated it many times in the past, but until the Cubs can get 66 HR's and over 200 RBI's in 2 years from their LF'er, it's a moot point and I don't care what his OBP or WAR is. You can cherry pick any month(s) to validate your argument, but they call it an average for a reason.

Maybe the brain trust should have platooned Soriano? Unheard of?

Soriano's last two years against lefties sported a .260/.342/.489 number in 2012, and .293/.349/.555 in 2013.

While you are dissecting Soriano, go ahead and look up Rizzo's piss poor performances. No streakiness there.

Of course, he gets a free pass as usual because we wouldn't want to throw anyone out there who got an extension, but has every reason to be a platoon player because he couldn't hit a lefty to save his ass.

 

[beckdawg]

Who in the hell said anything about top 100 prospects? You are the one talking about the trash heap in the minors like Vitters who couldn't hit his weight, and then say what he might become some day because he is still young or that he was injured. You are hoping for way too much here.

Vitters and Lake would likely be in the top 200 players in the minors considering Vitters was 10th in the cubs system to start last year and Lake was 13th. You can call them trash heap all you want but the fact remains quality players come out of the 100-200 best players in the minors. It's also amusing you call Lake trash heap when he hit for a higher average than Soriano in the majors last year and the past 3 years for that matter. Speaking of which, Vitters is trash because he "couldn't hit his weight" right? Then what is Soriano? In Vitters only 109 PAs in the majors he hit .121/.193/.202 at 22. Care to guess what Soriano hit his first two call ups? .125/.125/.500 in 8 PAs at 23, and .180/.196/.360 in 53 PAs at 24. So let's stop acting like Vitters is the first 22 year old to ever come up and struggle over his first 100 PAs.

Vitters clearly isn't a Baez/Bryant level prospect and anyone who thought he was were being overly optimistic about his power development. But that doesn't mean he can't be a productive player at the major league level. His past 3 years in the minors he's put up the follow lines .360/.383/.540(AFL), .283/.322/.448(AA), .304/.356/.513(AAA), and .295/.380/.511(AAA). If you are unwilling to acknowledge the guy can hit you're clearly biased. He wont hit that well in the majors but there is no coherent reason why he can't be a .260/.320/.450 hitter in the majors over time. That's basically an Alex Gordon level hitter. It's also basically Soriano only trading on base for power.

And as far as the Soriano thing, I know he is streaky and I have stated it many times in the past, but until the Cubs can get 66 HR's and over 200 RBI's in 2 years from their LF'er, it's a moot point and I don't care what his OBP or WAR is. You can cherry pick any month(s) to validate your argument, but they call it an average for a reason. Maybe the brain trust should have platooned Soriano? Unheard of?

You think Soriano would have agreed to a platoon? I'd love to hear why he'd want to platoon on a team headed for 90 losses. Additionally, have you looked at his splits? He's a career .282 hitter vs lefties and a .270 vs righties. Even if you want to say he's not that anymore, last year he hit .293/.236(L/R), the year before(.260/.263), and the year prior(.271/.235). So, if you were to platoon him he'd be the short side of a platoon anyways as you only face lefties around 25% of the time. As for "cherry picking," the last time he was over .270/.330/.500 was 2008 for crying out loud. Those aren't amazing numbers. They are average especially for a "#4 hitter."

You want a big sample size? How about this, 2009: .241/.303/.423 20 HR 55 RBIs, 2010: .258/.322/.496 24 HR 79 RBIs, 2011: .244/.289/.469 26 HR 88 RBI, 2012: .262/.322/.499 32 HRs and 108 RBIs, 2013: .255/.302/.489 34 HRs and 101 RBIs. It also should be noted that Soriano hit .256/.325/.525 with 17 HRs and 50 RBI's after being traded last year vs .254/.287/.467 17 HR 51 RBI's in over twice the PAs. So you want to talk about objectivity, his 2012 year was good. His 2011 had ok production though his average and OBP weren't good and 2009, 2010, and 2013(with the cubs) years were bad for a #4 hitter.

If you can guarantee me I'm getting the 2012 Soriano then fine keep him but you can't. And what's more likely, that 2009, 2010 and 2013 years with the cubs were an anomaly or that the 2012 year was and he's more likely to get worse because he's a year older? Hell, I'll take my chances and say Vitters could hit .260/.320/.450 with 80 RBI's next year which would be comparable to Soriano's 2010 year if Vitters got 600 PAs. Is it really that difficult to believe Vitters could do that when Schierholtz who's another "trash heap player" hit .251/.301/.470 21 HRs 68 RBIs in around 500 PAs?

While you are dissecting Soriano, go ahead and look up Rizzo's piss poor performances. No streakiness there.

What the hell does Rizzo have to do with Soriano? I've not mentioned him once in this line of debate so I don't know why you're bringing him up.

 

[SilenceS]

Eh, both sides are cherry picking. Soriano wouldn't make much of a difference but it is also a slap in the face to walk into the season with a platoon right fielder as your 4 hole hitter. We dont even know who the Cubs will play this year. Is Vitters really going to get a shot? Or is he a platoon with Nate? I would rather give a shot to Matt Szczur over all of them other then Lake.

Also, what he is saying is you rip on Soriano but turn a blind eye to Rizzos season. Rizzo is young and one season doesnt make a career but there should be concerns about him.

 

[beckdawg]

Eh, both sides are cherry picking. Soriano wouldn't make much of a difference but it is also a slap in the face to walk into the season with a platoon right fielder as your 4 hole hitter. We dont even know who the Cubs will play this year. Is Vitters really going to get a shot? Or is he a platoon with Nate? I would rather give a shot to Matt Szczur over all of them other then Lake.

Also, what he is saying is you rip on Soriano but turn a blind eye to Rizzos season. Rizzo is young and one season doesnt make a career but there should be concerns about him.

I don't see how I've turned a blind eye to Rizzo's season. Rizzo flat out didn't hit left handed pitching. His .252 vs righties was probably fine but lefties crushed him at .189. However, I don't get why people are surprised by this. Rizzo had 690 PAs which is around 100 more than he'd ever had before in a single season. He hit .222 in the 2nd half. It's entirely plausible he just got worn out. Additionally, a 23 year old struggling against same handed pitching isn't that surprising. That said, he still had a .323 OBP. So, if all he ever becomes is a .233 hitter that means he's still a valuable player. Certainly he wouldn't be a star but he's a servicable 1B. On the other than, if he's a .260-280 hitter then his OBP is in the .350+ range and he's a fringe all-star type. Also, if Rizzo isn't playing at 1B who else would? Vogelbach isn't even in AA yet. That's how the Soriano context is different. He would potentially steal time from Lake, Vitters, and various others. Boo thinks all those players are trash obviously but I just don't agree. Lake for example, hit .286 and gives them some desperately needed speed.

As for it being a slap in the face, it's only a slap in the face if they are as bad as you expect. Surely you expected Schierholtz in RF to be just as bad in 2013 right? I'm not even saying Schierholtz was amazing. I'm just saying he's not the abomination people act like LF will be this year and I'd rather give a young guy the chance to make that sort of step forward than to rely on a 38 year old player who's had less than a .305 OBP 3 of the past 5 years. I don't know if that player is Vitters for sure. I don't know if it's Sweeney, Lake, Kalish, Cunningham...etc. Maybe it's none of them. But, if you give them the chance you know for sure. And it's not like it's costing you the playoffs to find out.

Frankly, I really hope they give Vitters a legit shot. I really believe he'll surprise some people in a good way. Maybe I'm wrong but what more does he have to prove at AAA? He's hit .360/.383/.540, .283/.322/.448, .304/.356/.513 and .295/.380/.511 over his last 1164 PAs between the AFL, AA, AAA and a short R(17 PAs) rehab last year. If that's not good enough to get promoted and have a legit shot at a starting job what is?