The Javier Baez Discussion Thread

[JimJohnson]

because that totally means something.


Sent from My 1998 Palm Pilot Using Tapatalk

Actually it does

 

[Parade_Rain]

So how many players need to be traded to get Lester or Scherzer? That's right. None. Maeda? None. Arrieta, Hendricks, etc. They aren't going to trade away Baez just because someone from NY stirs the pot. This discussion is deja vu all over again.

 

[chibears55]

So how many players need to be traded to get Lester or Scherzer? That's right. None. Maeda? None. Arrieta, Hendricks, etc. They aren't going to trade away Baez just because someone from NY stirs the pot. This discussion is deja vu all over again.

Agree. . I remember in the offseason they rumored cubs trading their top hitting prospects for mets top pitching prospects. .

Cubs are not going to trade off their top prospects now before they even know which ones are going to be part of their team going forward. .

The very earliest we see any of these top guys traded will be 2015 off season. .

 

[beckdawg]

Cubs are not going to trade off their top prospects now before they even know which ones are going to be part of their team going forward.

Clearly this is going no where. All I'm going to say is look what they got for trading Brett Jackson after finding out he wasn't going to be part of the team going forward. Could they have got anything for Vitters even last year? It's easy to sit here and say let things play out but if they play out poorly you get next to nothing. At some point you have to have confidence in your own scouting.

 

[chibears55]

Clearly this is going no where. All I'm going to say is look what they got for trading Brett Jackson after finding out he wasn't going to be part of the team going forward. Could they have got anything for Vitters even last year? It's easy to sit here and say let things play out but if they play out poorly you get next to nothing. At some point you have to have confidence in your own scouting.

Ok they could trade him at some point if they need too but now not the time to trade off one of your best prospect..

They could trade lesser prospects this offseason but not the baez bryant russell soler..

Alcantara will go before those 4 guys

 

[Boobaby1]

Clearly this is going no where. All I'm going to say is look what they got for trading Brett Jackson after finding out he wasn't going to be part of the team going forward. Could they have got anything for Vitters even last year? It's easy to sit here and say let things play out but if they play out poorly you get next to nothing. At some point you have to have confidence in your own scouting.

Agreed. You don't sift out the bad to see what you have, and then expect someone to take the ones you don't want. You sell high on speculation. PLAIN AND SIMPLE!

Whether it's taking advantage of Castro's better defense and 3-time ALL-Star awards to net what they might need, trading Javy or Russell to get pitching, you do it.

Obviously some around here weren't old enough to remember that Theo traded away once thought of untouchables in Hanley Ramirez and Anibal Sanchez to get Beckett, Lowell, and Mota from the Marlins.

This FO will do the same thing if they feel it is in the best interest of the team moving forward, and to think otherwise is simply naïve.

 

[Parade_Rain]

Agreed. You don't sift out the bad to see what you have, and then expect someone to take the ones you don't want. You sell high on speculation. PLAIN AND SIMPLE!

Whether it's taking advantage of Castro's better defense and 3-time ALL-Star awards to net what they might need, trading Javy or Russell to get pitching, you do it.

Obviously some around here weren't old enough to remember that Theo traded away once thought of untouchables in Hanley Ramirez and Anibal Sanchez to get Beckett, Lowell, and Mota from the Marlins.

This FO will do the same thing if they feel it is in the best interest of the team moving forward, and to think otherwise is simply naïve.

I'm older than almost everyone on this forum. Let's stop with the "people must not be old enough to remember" nonsense.The FO has been very clear with their intentions all along, as frustrating as it has been for some, including myself. You just have to look at what they say and how they are attaining pitching to conclude it isn't likely they are trading Baez. Anyone from NY can write an article about the Cubs and Mets making a deal. That doesn't mean anything is in the works.

 

[brett05]

Im 41

 

[JZsportsfan]

If the Cubs sign Cuban OF Castillo they will have a abundance of OF prospects, I'd think they would use them as trade bait first. Schwarber and Almora would be the first to go as they are the furthest out from reaching the ML

Agreed. You don't sift out the bad to see what you have, and then expect someone to take the ones you don't want. You sell high on speculation. PLAIN AND SIMPLE!

Whether it's taking advantage of Castro's better defense and 3-time ALL-Star awards to net what they might need, trading Javy or Russell to get pitching, you do it.

Obviously some around here weren't old enough to remember that Theo traded away once thought of untouchables in Hanley Ramirez and Anibal Sanchez to get Beckett, Lowell, and Mota from the Marlins.

This FO will do the same thing if they feel it is in the best interest of the team moving forward, and to think otherwise is simply naïve.

I think that's a whole differnet scenario though. The Sox had a core in place and were looking for pieces to complete their team. Now the Cubs untouchables are set to be the core. And the leftover top prospects will become trade bait

 

[CSF77]

And let me be more blunt since I tried to get around it. They aren't trading Baez. They are hoarding the bats that are at or about MLB ready. That includes Castro, Rizzo, Baez, Bryant and Soler. I doubt they are looking to trade Russell either, but I don't feel as certain about him as I do the other 3 prospects.

If they were willing to trade Russell than they would have for Hamels. So that question has been answered already.

If anything that decision puts Castro in the hot seat next year. Mets have been wanting to trade for him and have had a solid recent history of developing arms. Not to mention if anything has been proven to this point. Cost reduction has been the status que.

 

[SilenceS]

Well, there are a couple of things missing here. People are banking on way to many prospects making it. Schwarber has struggled since hitting high A which isnt a good sign. Almora makes Baez and Castro look like the Greek God of walks. Alcantara is not doing much to cement his place in the Cubs spot. Bryant and Soler are almost ready, but Bryant brings big red flags. He has gotten worse with the K's as AAA has gone on. Baez was actually the opposite. Russell is not Theo's guy either and could wind up being the one traded considering Castro continues to improve in all areas and Russel has proven jack at the major league level.

So, yes, the Cubs most likely will trade some players but I highly doubt Baez, Bryant, or Soler would be one of them. I would peg Almora, Russell as the top ones to be traded.

Oh and its funny. Do you wait until they bust then get nothing for them especially Baez? That easily could happen or he could become the next superstar in this league that you traded because you didnt like his approach in his first 100 at bats as a 21 year old. Perception is everything of a player. Its funny, but because Kris Bryant walks more. Baez is not considered boom or bust anymore by scouts. Let him play. This whole trade him out before we know just in case he fails is fucking dumb.

Also, who are you trading Baez away for? Who is even on the block that is worth trading Baez? You can have Lester or Scherzer or others and the most they will cost you is a compensation pick which our first rounder is protected? The Cubs would never put Baez in a trade unless it was for an absolute solidified Ace or a hitter like Stanton.

 

[SilenceS]

If they were willing to trade Russell than they would have for Hamels. So that question has been answered already.

If anything that decision puts Castro in the hot seat next year. Mets have been wanting to trade for him and have had a solid recent history of developing arms. Not to mention if anything has been proven to this point. Cost reduction has been the status que.

The Phillies wanted way more then Russell. Russell and a couple of other prospects and the Cubs would have pulled the trigger. The Phillies were looking for an unrealistic package for him the entire time he was on the trade block. The Cubs not making the trade has nothing to do with them not entertaining trading Russell.

 

[beckdawg]

Russell is not Theo's guy either and could wind up being the one traded considering Castro continues to improve in all areas and Russel has proven jack at the major league level.

I'd strongly disagree here. My guess is you mean Russell wasn't drafted by Theo. But he was the centerpiece for the cubs best trade piece since Theo has been here. In that respect, Theo has thrown his lot in with Russell. Additionally, Russell's makeup is similar to other players this front office has drafted. Trading Shark for a player you don't intend to keep seems pretty ballsy to be honest because you're then banking on moving him later for something. If there's any player that I think has 0 chance of being traded barring utter failure it would be Russell.

As to your question who are they trading for, it's not happening unless it's for someone who's similar level to what Beckett was several years ago. I mean realistically you're talking about someone like Jose Fernandez, Matt Harvey and preferably those level players who aren't coming back from significant injuries...etc as being who you would target. I don't know that the Mets/Marlins/whomever are going to move that type of player but when I mention the concept of trading Baez that's who you're going after. You're not trading him for someone like Lackey or Masterson or arguably even David Price.

 

[SilenceS]

I'd strongly disagree here. My guess is you mean Russell wasn't drafted by Theo. But he was the centerpiece for the cubs best trade piece since Theo has been here. In that respect, Theo has thrown his lot in with Russell. Additionally, Russell's makeup is similar to other players this front office has drafted. Trading Shark for a player you don't intend to keep seems pretty ballsy to be honest because you're then banking on moving him later for something. If there's any player that I think has 0 chance of being traded barring utter failure it would be Russell.

As to your question who are they trading for, it's not happening unless it's for someone who's similar level to what Beckett was several years ago. I mean realistically you're talking about someone like Jose Fernandez, Matt Harvey and preferably those level players who aren't coming back from significant injuries...etc as being who you would target. I don't know that the Mets/Marlins/whomever are going to move that type of player but when I mention the concept of trading Baez that's who you're going after. You're not trading him for someone like Lackey or Masterson or arguably even David Price.

Russell is only here because he became the best trade piece. It wasnt like Theo wasnt going to trade Shark unless he got Russell. He went with best offer available. He didnt stick his neck out there for him. The A's told him they would add Russell to their package if the Cubs added Hammel. It comes down to who the Cubs value more and none of us truly know who. It also may not even make a difference because it really is up to the trading team to push who they want. The trading team essentially chooses their package and its up to the other team to negotiate a similar deal.

 

[beckdawg]

Russell is only here because he became the best trade piece. It wasnt like Theo wasnt going to trade Shark unless he got Russell. He went with best offer available. He didnt stick his neck out there for him. The A's told him they would add Russell to their package if the Cubs added Hammel. It comes down to who the Cubs value more and none of us truly know who. It also may not even make a difference because it really is up to the trading team to push who they want. The trading team essentially chooses their package and its up to the other team to negotiate a similar deal.

The best trade piece is a player you can use not someone you're unconvinced on. Just sayin' I really don't see any scenario where a team trades for a player just because other teams think he is good and your team may not. That sort of defeats the point. In fact the opposite usually happens where you see David Price traded for "less" than Russell. Clearly the Rays liked the SS they got in the deal even though the popular consensus isn't yet that he's amazing.

 

[2323]

Clearly this is going no where. All I'm going to say is look what they got for trading Brett Jackson after finding out he wasn't going to be part of the team going forward. Could they have got anything for Vitters even last year? It's easy to sit here and say let things play out but if they play out poorly you get next to nothing. At some point you have to have confidence in your own scouting.

You don't think Jackson is apples and oranges? Do you think the perceived upsides are the same?

 

[beckdawg]

You don't think Jackson is apples and oranges? Do you think the perceived upsides are the same?

I think you're missing the point. The point wasn't that their upsides were the same. The point is a failed prospect nets next to nothing later no matter who it is.

 

[chibears55]

I think you're missing the point. The point wasn't that their upsides were the same. The point is a failed prospect nets next to nothing later no matter who it is.

ok.. I don't disagree with what your saying
but if your suggesting that they should trade baez this off season because he may be a possible future fail is crazy

if the cubs had a team in place and was a over the top player or two away from making them more then just a playoff contender then yes they should consider using their top prospect to net that 1 or 2 players in a deal..

But this cubs team is still trying to piece together a core group of young players in which Baez is seriously considered as a big part of that core.
there is no way that Epstein and hoyer are even considering at this time to use Baez in any type of trade, unless its for a monster return of a player or two, which wont happen.


one other thing I wanna mention, being that he just 21 I think its safe to say that Baez has a window of at least 2 seasons with a high ceiling to succeed and to keep his trade value high as long as he doesn't completely tank ALA mike olt..

 

[2323]

I think you're missing the point. The point wasn't that their upsides were the same. The point is a failed prospect nets next to nothing later no matter who it is.

No. It's you who is missing the point. In fact, you might have a point if teams wrote talented prospects off after initial struggles. And then when you see the dearth in power hitting in mlb, it makes an even bigger difference. It doesn't work that way--not when they're 21. 25 maybe but not 21.

Castro has less of an upside compared to a lot of guys coming through the system. Based on your notion that value is attached to possible failure, they should trade Castro.

 

[beckdawg]

one other thing I wanna mention, being that he just 21 I think its safe to say that Baez has a window of at least 2 seasons with a high ceiling to succeed and to keep his trade value high as long as he doesn't completely tank ALA mike olt..

Vitters was called up at 22 and had a poor showing and hasn't been back since. Not saying he's for sure a failure but the thing is the path from next big thing to after thought isn't as far as people make it out to be. That was 2 years ago.... just sayin'