The Javier Baez Discussion Thread

chibears55

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Lmao.. is this what the new age fans come to..
You determine how good a young player may or may not be by how many walks he has in his first 100 AB in majors ?

Good thing some of you weren't around when Ryno first started..
He only had 3 BB in his first 150 AB with a .236 AVG

Some of you would've been wanting to fire Dallas Green and wishing they still had DeJesus
 

JZsportsfan

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I don't understand all the hate for a 21 year old kid. Some people are incredibly unrealistic when it comes to expectations. I guess unrealistic expectations should be expected from Cubs fans but come on. The youngest player in MLB is going to struggle in his first stint. That's why he is up now. Struggle and to adjust things over the winter.
 

TL1961

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.141 BA, .281 OBP, 1 home run, .242 SLG, .523 OPS. 49 Games played, 153 PA, 128AB's. 35.9% K rate. That is Anthony Rizzo stat line in his first big league experience.

Could Baez bust? Absolutely. To make any kind of judgement right now is absolutely ridiculous. He is jacked up. He will take walks. Its why the Cubs called him up now. 21 years old. Yet again, 21 years old. Not everyone is Mike Trout out the gate. I swear that guy made people have unrealistic expectations on young players.

Mike Trout came up for 40 games his first year. Batted .220. .390 SLG. He turned out OK.
 

TL1961

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The real puzzling thing about the criticism / impatience of the fans is that we KNEW he took time to adjust to a new level before they brought him up. That was thought to be one of the primary reasons he was called up now.
 

beckdawg

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Serious question here, why can't you be critical of someone who's young? I mean look I know some people who've posted here are out right taking a piss with people so it's easy to be defensive. However, I think most of what I've said has been fairly objective. I never said what Baez is now is all he could ever be. In fact, I went well out of my way to suggest he has MVP caliber tools. Why is it off limits to question if he will actually reach those based on poor peripherals? When haters bring up prospect failure rate the comment is always that no one is saying they all will make it. However, mentioning that any might have issues is met with the "they are still young" talk. It's a bit of hypocrisy.

If people don't want to agree with my opinion or facts that support it that's fine. Everyone's going to view a different selection of things as important. Frankly, that's what make sports in general interesting. For example, SilenceS mentioned the similarity with regard to K's between Bryant and Baez. I view Bryant's supporting statistics as far superior and worry less about him because of it. Does that mean it's not a valid point? Of course not just as my support for Bryant would be valid as well. Right or wrong is not clear cut with regard to this and if it were no team would ever make a mistake.

What's crazy to me is that I don't even think I've said anything that outlandish. If you were to ask any scout which of the cubs top hitting prospects would be most likely to out right bust most would probably say Baez. If you asked those same scouts who has the most potential it's also probably Baez. Is that really any different than anything I have said? Forgive me for taking a stand on something. If I'm wrong then so be it. Thus far I've been wrong on Arrieta falling off this year. I've also been quite clearly right about Rizzo. Am I holding a grudge and talking down Arrieta? No. If Baez turns out to be one of the top players in the majors will I hold a grudge? No. And the irony of all this that by bringing up these points people are throwing out the "unrealistic expectation" card. Really? Because if you happen to go back to the first of the year and look at the "evaluating cubs hitting prospects" I said the same thing there that I am now and that was after he'd had a monster season. My expectations haven't changed.

Simply put it's mildly annoying that you can't have an opinion on a prospect without people acting like you are an idiot.
 

Bear Pride

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It's not like Rizzo is protecting him much as well lately. The Cubs will have a bunch of guys next year. It's not like teams will be able to pitch around all of them. I also don't believe that Javi will remain at the 2 spot. A lot of goof balls.
 

brett05

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Serious question here, why can't you be critical of someone who's young? I mean look I know some people who've posted here are out right taking a piss with people so it's easy to be defensive. However, I think most of what I've said has been fairly objective. I never said what Baez is now is all he could ever be. In fact, I went well out of my way to suggest he has MVP caliber tools. Why is it off limits to question if he will actually reach those based on poor peripherals? When haters bring up prospect failure rate the comment is always that no one is saying they all will make it. However, mentioning that any might have issues is met with the "they are still young" talk. It's a bit of hypocrisy.

If people don't want to agree with my opinion or facts that support it that's fine. Everyone's going to view a different selection of things as important. Frankly, that's what make sports in general interesting. For example, SilenceS mentioned the similarity with regard to K's between Bryant and Baez. I view Bryant's supporting statistics as far superior and worry less about him because of it. Does that mean it's not a valid point? Of course not just as my support for Bryant would be valid as well. Right or wrong is not clear cut with regard to this and if it were no team would ever make a mistake.

What's crazy to me is that I don't even think I've said anything that outlandish. If you were to ask any scout which of the cubs top hitting prospects would be most likely to out right bust most would probably say Baez. If you asked those same scouts who has the most potential it's also probably Baez. Is that really any different than anything I have said? Forgive me for taking a stand on something. If I'm wrong then so be it. Thus far I've been wrong on Arrieta falling off this year. I've also been quite clearly right about Rizzo. Am I holding a grudge and talking down Arrieta? No. If Baez turns out to be one of the top players in the majors will I hold a grudge? No. And the irony of all this that by bringing up these points people are throwing out the "unrealistic expectation" card. Really? Because if you happen to go back to the first of the year and look at the "evaluating cubs hitting prospects" I said the same thing there that I am now and that was after he'd had a monster season. My expectations haven't changed.

Simply put it's mildly annoying that you can't have an opinion on a prospect without people acting like you are an idiot.
been like that on ccs for years in this forum. Most here despise objectivity.
 

SilenceS

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I dont mind objectivity. I mind a 54 bat sample size. Just like I mind that people think Hendricks could be great because of his small sample size. Everyone knows Baez faults. I dont care if he was hitting .330 right now. I would still temper my expectations, but I also know he would still have to work on flaws. Using metrics are great but they have to be used properly. Most baseball people need to see 500 to 1000 ABs at the major league level to get a proper reading on a player. Same goes with pitching. Every prospect can fail. Fuck, Almora was considered the safest prospect and he still has no idea how to take a walk. Everyone has an opinion and dont take it so personal when people rebutt your opinion. Oh and dont mistake it. Bryant could bust just as easily as Baez.
 

theberserkfury

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Serious question here, why can't you be critical of someone who's young? I mean look I know some people who've posted here are out right taking a piss with people so it's easy to be defensive. However, I think most of what I've said has been fairly objective. I never said what Baez is now is all he could ever be. In fact, I went well out of my way to suggest he has MVP caliber tools. Why is it off limits to question if he will actually reach those based on poor peripherals? When haters bring up prospect failure rate the comment is always that no one is saying they all will make it. However, mentioning that any might have issues is met with the "they are still young" talk. It's a bit of hypocrisy.

If people don't want to agree with my opinion or facts that support it that's fine. Everyone's going to view a different selection of things as important. Frankly, that's what make sports in general interesting. For example, SilenceS mentioned the similarity with regard to K's between Bryant and Baez. I view Bryant's supporting statistics as far superior and worry less about him because of it. Does that mean it's not a valid point? Of course not just as my support for Bryant would be valid as well. Right or wrong is not clear cut with regard to this and if it were no team would ever make a mistake.

What's crazy to me is that I don't even think I've said anything that outlandish. If you were to ask any scout which of the cubs top hitting prospects would be most likely to out right bust most would probably say Baez. If you asked those same scouts who has the most potential it's also probably Baez. Is that really any different than anything I have said? Forgive me for taking a stand on something. If I'm wrong then so be it. Thus far I've been wrong on Arrieta falling off this year. I've also been quite clearly right about Rizzo. Am I holding a grudge and talking down Arrieta? No. If Baez turns out to be one of the top players in the majors will I hold a grudge? No. And the irony of all this that by bringing up these points people are throwing out the "unrealistic expectation" card. Really? Because if you happen to go back to the first of the year and look at the "evaluating cubs hitting prospects" I said the same thing there that I am now and that was after he'd had a monster season. My expectations haven't changed.

Simply put it's mildly annoying that you can't have an opinion on a prospect without people acting like you are an idiot.

I don't think there's any problem with you being critical of Baez. Your concerns are very legitimate and have been echoed by plenty of people in the industry... I have them as concerns as well.

But I feel like these concerns have been concerns for a pretty long time. I think that you expressing those concerns again now, valid as they are, isn't necessarily adding new ideas/observations to the analysis of Baez. He was going to have trouble with his strikeouts and overswinging and what have you when he got up here. We all knew that and knew what to expect.

The hope for him is that he'll eventually adjust and improve... I don't think there's been nearly enough time to evaluate how he's doing with that and I think that's really the "issue" (that word seems too strong to me) here.

This is all coming from someone who has mad respect for you and your baseball musings...
 

TL1961

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Serious question here, why can't you be critical of someone who's young? I mean look I know some people who've posted here are out right taking a piss with people so it's easy to be defensive. However, I think most of what I've said has been fairly objective. I never said what Baez is now is all he could ever be. In fact, I went well out of my way to suggest he has MVP caliber tools. Why is it off limits to question if he will actually reach those based on poor peripherals? When haters bring up prospect failure rate the comment is always that no one is saying they all will make it. However, mentioning that any might have issues is met with the "they are still young" talk. It's a bit of hypocrisy.

If people don't want to agree with my opinion or facts that support it that's fine. Everyone's going to view a different selection of things as important. Frankly, that's what make sports in general interesting. For example, SilenceS mentioned the similarity with regard to K's between Bryant and Baez. I view Bryant's supporting statistics as far superior and worry less about him because of it. Does that mean it's not a valid point? Of course not just as my support for Bryant would be valid as well. Right or wrong is not clear cut with regard to this and if it were no team would ever make a mistake.

What's crazy to me is that I don't even think I've said anything that outlandish. If you were to ask any scout which of the cubs top hitting prospects would be most likely to out right bust most would probably say Baez. If you asked those same scouts who has the most potential it's also probably Baez. Is that really any different than anything I have said? Forgive me for taking a stand on something. If I'm wrong then so be it. Thus far I've been wrong on Arrieta falling off this year. I've also been quite clearly right about Rizzo. Am I holding a grudge and talking down Arrieta? No. If Baez turns out to be one of the top players in the majors will I hold a grudge? No. And the irony of all this that by bringing up these points people are throwing out the "unrealistic expectation" card. Really? Because if you happen to go back to the first of the year and look at the "evaluating cubs hitting prospects" I said the same thing there that I am now and that was after he'd had a monster season. My expectations haven't changed.

Simply put it's mildly annoying that you can't have an opinion on a prospect without people acting like you are an idiot.


I don't think it's a problem to criticize - or at least critique - a player who is young.

Some may be suggesting criticism is too harsh because it's expecting too much of someone so young or inexperienced.

But suggesting a guy coming up shows troubling signs - i.e. K and BB rates - doesn't seem unfair.

I think expecting him to be hitting .300 with a ton of walks and no strikeouts would be. But I haven't seen suggestions of that.

I may disagree with some whose pessimism seems over the top. But I don't think it's wrong to discuss projections of a guy currently 21.
 

2323

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I don't think it's a problem to criticize - or at least critique - a player who is young.

Some may be suggesting criticism is too harsh because it's expecting too much of someone so young or inexperienced.

But suggesting a guy coming up shows troubling signs - i.e. K and BB rates - doesn't seem unfair.

I think expecting him to be hitting .300 with a ton of walks and no strikeouts would be. But I haven't seen suggestions of that.

I may disagree with some whose pessimism seems over the top. But I don't think it's wrong to discuss projections of a guy currently 21.

It is unfair. The guy hasn't spent much time at each level because, at each level, he's been rewarded for being super aggressive. And on top of that, now that he's at the big league level, he's probably swinging out of his shoes even more.

No one truly knows why certain metrics aren't better. And to be fair, the damage he does when he puts the ball in play might make the negatives acceptable eventually. But now that he's at the big league level and not trying to make the next jump, he might start focusing more on pitch recognition. And he might actually do more damage because of this.
 

beckdawg

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I don't think there's any problem with you being critical of Baez. Your concerns are very legitimate and have been echoed by plenty of people in the industry... I have them as concerns as well.

But I feel like these concerns have been concerns for a pretty long time. I think that you expressing those concerns again now, valid as they are, isn't necessarily adding new ideas/observations to the analysis of Baez. He was going to have trouble with his strikeouts and overswinging and what have you when he got up here. We all knew that and knew what to expect.

The hope for him is that he'll eventually adjust and improve... I don't think there's been nearly enough time to evaluate how he's doing with that and I think that's really the "issue" (that word seems too strong to me) here.

This is all coming from someone who has mad respect for you and your baseball musings...

Agreed but I guess my point was you expect to see gradual improvement. And granted I often can be more clear about my opinions. This case to add to the alcantara defense thing hasn't been the most well thought out reasoning as far as sample size but like with that case it wasn't just these 54 at bats or those 30 or whatever games it was for Alcantara. What I posted on Jaunary first was essentially that if he can get his bb/k rate closer to 10%/20% he should be fine. What we got this year was an almost identical 7.8% walk rate and a marginally higher 30.0% K rate in AAA.

The talk prior to his call up was his "improved" K rate in AAA. But even if it was approaching decency it was still 25%+. And sample size works both ways. It could be an improvement or it could just be him running into a hot streak. Overall the year he put in was 30% and unlike Bryant, his ISO was substantially down along with his average and on base. So, frankly it's difficult for me to see much having changed from this current form of Baez to what he was prior to the season. I'm neither trying to be nor am someone who works in player development. So, I trust they have a far better clue what's going on than I do. But that being said it's hard for me to see someone who's got a refined approach or even is working their way towards it. Right now he appears from my untrained opinion to be an all or nothing player.

And admittedly development isn't linear. I guess my issue is I don't see where this sudden realization is going to click in with him and he'll cut the K's down dramatically. This is likely a piss poor analogy but compare him to a pitcher who has a dominating fastball. Baez's bat speed has let him get away with things other players can't. Often pitchers with a dominating fastball can succeed well on raw talent until the upper levels and then you reach a point where raw talent isn't enough anymore. Similarly, Baez got to AAA and has reached a point where pitchers clearly can exploit him. This is what I mean about him having to fundamentally change. That's not to say that some players don't eventually get the additional stuff they need to raw talent. But there's tons who never do. And until we start to see that I think this is the player he is.

The question then becomes do you want to gamble on that clicking with him? Playing 2nd obviously gives him more utility than a lot of guys with similar hitting profiles who often tend to be LFers. But even if you talk about someone like Chris Davis who's has a similar 8.3%/31.2% walk/k rate and enormous power, he's been a guy that's bounced around a lot having years bad enough to get him dealt and last year which was arguably MVP level followed by a hugely disappointing year this year. Keep in mind Davis wasn't quite as highly touted reaching #65 on BA's list in 2007 but he was a legit prospect and often SS will get pushed up more. Texas ended up letting him go with Tommy Hunter for Koji Uehara which is kind of disappointing return. Another example of someone with similar walk/k rate and power profile is Pedro Alvarez who was the #2 pick in the 2008 draft and ended up ranking in a #12 and #9 in 2009/10 respectively in BA's top 100. That's not to say that Baez is an identical player to those guys but it's easy to draw parallels to them. And at this point, Davis obviously disappointed Rangers fans enough that the team dealt him and Alvarez has been pretty meh for a top 15 player.

So, while I can understand some saying I'm drawing conclusions too quickly there's a reasoning behind that. The reasoning is that if you deal him this offseason he still has most if not all of that shiney prospect hype on him. If you deal him the following offseason or later you're probably talking about substantially less value unless he changes at which point you wouldn't be trading him anyways. It comes down to a matter of whether or not you trust him to change. And given the selection of players working in the 25%+ K rate range, there's not many I'd be confident betting on. The list is basically Jay Bruce and Giancarlo Stanton. Additionally, it's not like the cubs don't have numerous options at 2B already between Alcantara, Castro, Russell, Bruno, Watkins, Gioskar Amaya, as well as Torres who at 17 is looking likely to be the next in line of "the cubs have too many SS." And given their hitting prospect it also isn't likely they will be hurting for bats.
 

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He strikes himself out and swings at bad off speed pitches hitting weak popups often.
I made this comment as an observation, not to be critical. I am not worried about Baez. I wanted them to call him up now. He starts slowly at every level and improves. This time is no different, except that every Cub fan on the planet gets to see him first hand. Now he's had a game where he's taken a couple of walks. He's learning through failure. That's part of the process.
 

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They aren't likely dealing Baez in the off-season. The expression "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" comes to mind.
 

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They aren't likely dealing Baez in the off-season. The expression "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" comes to mind.

Well, as hopeful as I am of Baez making it, I don't know if he really qualifies as a bird in the hand... he hasn't proven much in the majors yet...
 

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Well, as hopeful as I am of Baez making it, I don't know if he really qualifies as a bird in the hand... he hasn't proven much in the majors yet...
With this number of ABs had he proven himself in AAA yet? They called him up to get him used to the level, so he is ready to go for next Spring.
 

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With this number of ABs had he proven himself in AAA yet? They called him up to get him used to the level, so he is ready to go for next Spring.

Yeah, sure... but I'm not sure how that makes him a bird in the hand.
 

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Yeah, sure... but I'm not sure how that makes him a bird in the hand.
Based upon the FO comments, they consider Javy to be a bird in the hand for next season.

Hoyer said:
"A big part of why we brought him up when we did is we want him to get 50 or so games and get a chance to have those ups and downs," Hoyer said Wednesday on The Carmen & Jurko Show on ESPN Chicago 1000....
..."We kind of felt like having that reset button in October heading into the offseason is really important to him. I think it will give him a chance to reflect on his year and think about what improvements he needs to make. I know when I was in San Diego we brought up [Anthony] Rizzo as a 21-year-old and he really struggled, went back and made some changes. I don't think he would have been able to make those changes in the middle of the season, so I think that's a great time to bring him up and let him play every day."

http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/cubs/post/_/id/26337/hoyer-struggles-will-be-good-for-baez
 
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