The Myth of being contenders year after year for an extended period of time.

[Franko725]

No guarantees of what they will end up being. No one thought Pujols was going to end up being god-like.

 

[BearsWillWin]

So I guess no one can mention any good players the Cubs could have signed because the automatic answer is obviously those guys would not have wanted to play here.

So obviously we need to wait until some players off the farm come to the majors and become studs and the team wins games before we can actually sign quality free agents?

Of course, I guess we should just ignore the fact that the year before the Cubs signed Alfonso Soriano..........they had won just 66 games. Yet one of the best free agents of that offseason still chose to sign here. Mainly because the GM ponied up the money.

The year before the Rangers signed ARod to that huge deal they won just 71 games and finished dead last. Yet, the best young hitter in the game still chose to sign there.........because of the money.

The Cubs have money. And in free agency.....money talks.

 

[nwfisch]

Fielder had options, Appel had a 4th year of college, we knew Darvish wanted to come stateside, get the big money, and get US stardom for a long time, then when he finally gets his team to post him after such a long wait, he wasn't going to stay there.

And Almora and Appel/Gray AREN'T and WILL NOT be Harper/Starsburg or even all that close.

Glad you can predict the future.

What are the lottery numbers for Tuesday?

 

[CSF77]

Meh. Don't matter. What has been done is done. Next up is the #2 pick. Then the trade deadline. Regardless, Cubs suck right now. If they do not throw cash at the problem it will be a long and bumpy road.

 

[mountsalami]

Ah, thank you once again for pointing out my agenda. It is so grown up of you to resort to name calling and insults.

Given your assumption that they would have been able to sign Fielder, what exactly do you think he contributes to the team last year? I can almost guarantee that his numbers would not have been as good as they were in Detroit. He would not have had the same production on the Cubs last year due to the guys around him. Hard to drive in runs when no one is on base in front of you. Also, it is hard to see decent pitches when you don't have a threat hitting behind you. You assume that he would have had more production than Rizzo did last year. However, if you extrapolate Rizzo's numbers from last year to a full 162 games, they are really close to what Fielder put up. Of course, that doesn't fit your agenda.

You are obviously not a fan of Theo and Co. The only problem that you run into when it comes to what they have done so far is that you neglect to bring into account that they can only work within the budget they are given. They are being held back by the Ricketts. The Ricketts' family reminds me of kids that want a puppy. They told their dad that they wanted this "puppy" and that they would take care of it. Only problem is, dad still has to fork out money. He is only concerned with making money from this team. If you really want to be mad at someone in this situation, be mad at Selig. He kept this team from having the owner that the fans deserved, just because he did not want Cuban in the league. Cuban may very well have hired Theo and Co. as well. However, he would be allotting the resources necessary to make the team competitive now as well as in the future.

Your plans for how to make the team better all originate in a fantasy baseball world where money is no object, and you can sign whatever player you want because they have no choice but to sign with you. That is not reality. It is nice to see you admit that they might not have been able to sign Fielder and Appel...now you just need to stop making it sound like it is a fact that they could have when you post your agenda.

The enitre post above is competely off-base. You obviously do not comprehend very well. You have a bad habit of inserting things that are never said and cry about name-calling and insults at the same time. Stop trying to come up with a basis for your stupidity. You are merely questioning yourself as a result of poor reading comprehension.

Do yourself a favor and look in the mirror.

 

[Franko725]

What is exactly off-base? How about some examples to prove any of what I said is untrue? Or would you just rather stick to making up juvenile nicknames for players to prove that you are cool? I am not "crying" about name calling...just calling someone out for only being able to respond with "you're an idiot" or the such. It provides nothing to the conversation. I point out obvious discrepancies with an argument, and that is the best your buddy can come back with.

I am not a fan of the way the team is being run. Not from the aspect of the management team, but from the way the owners are doing things. Darvish would have been great. The only problem is, first you have to spend the money on the bid...then you have to spend the money to sign him. They do not want to spend that much money.

What part of my post is off-base when it comes to the Ricketts' family? None of it. They are only the owners of this team because they are the ones that Selig wanted. Cuban's bid was far and away the highest. Selig didn't want him to own a team. Those are facts as you guys like to speak of so often...or is that part of my agenda as well?

You thank one of your other buddies because he says that the Cubs have money, and money speaks in free agency. Yes, the Cubs have money, but the owners are not willing to spend it. Does that make Theo and Co. bad at running the team because their hands are tied to an extent? Does the team having below average talent make Sveum a bad manager? Phil Jackson was a great coach, but how would he have looked coaching the Wizards? It is easy to be a "great" coach when you have a talented team...not so easy when you have a crap team. How much better would Sveum have looked if they hadn't traded away Dempster and Malholm last year? The team wouldn't have lost near as many games. Without the budget to put a winning team on the field, and no talent to bring up to fill out a roster that doesn't cost much, what do you expect?

 

[KBIB]

I see you continue to ignore the FACTS that the player himself has been quoted as saying he turned down the Pirates.

Whoops.

Well, you seem to have a hard time comprehending there was never an offer.

From Appels own mouth;
""I can't tell you what the teams were thinking because we never talked to any teams"

Appel decided to go back to Stanford, end of. This pure rubbish that he had some sort of offer is pish and pure spin doctoring from the Pirates since they gambled a high pick and lost. I find it hilarious tho just how not only the Pirates GM, but also the owner went to the media the second Appel announced his intentions of not signing.

What kind of prospects will they get for a player like Feldman or Stewart??

None.

Whoops.

Since when did you add Precognition to your imbecilic resume to go along with a PHD in delusional thought? Hey, while your at it, post up the lotto numbers on a dailt basis...no better yet, play the lotto and get a team of your own and show everybody just how intelligently, in an oxymoronic kind of way, you can run a MLB baseball team with all those trivial ideas you have been windsocking to everybody here?

Face facts, you don't know the return, and have a nice sized portion of meatball logic on your plate to eat thru before you even sniff a dose of reality. Home cooking, your table is ready.

Actually almost every team in baseball is trying their best to BOTH field the best possible major league team while building up the farm system.

Thanks.

Hmm, lets think about that one for a bit;

Marlins? Nope rebuilding their farm system
Blue Jays? Used their farm system to horrible return and suddenly watched their big league team take a proverbial shit all across stadiums thru out the AL.
Yankees? Trimming spending and making a translucent effort to not get taxed this year while openly stating they want to invest more in their farm system.
Red Sox? Pulling a Hendry by over paying for FA's while they wait for their prospects, many who aren't that far away from the bigs, because, you know, Theo did all the hard work in finding them, and have a stocked farm system.

Shall I go on?

Cardinals? Had a bevy of talent already in the bigs, watched their HOF player leave then filled in the gaps with the money they had on stop gaps until their farm system, the best in baseball, btw, bears its fruit.
The White Sox? Watched their farm system get trampled but, using their first round picks on almost ready players and had Hahn come out last year and say the spending is gonna happen in prospect development instead of on FA's.

And that's off the top of my head. Seems the only teams spending money are those that feel they are close to a WS. I didn't see the Rangers, who have a loaded system, score too many elite FA's last winter, and funny that their elite player bolted like Bolt to the Angels, who, even funnier, have a horrible farm system.

Shall I go on again?

A whole lot of words but you have actual said nothing to counter the point of how the Cardinals were able to build up the farm system without having to throw away seasons to get a better draft pick.

1. They have pitching.
2. They have been expertly managed for decades
3. They actually understand what their core is and build around it instead of adding to it.
4. They know how to draft.
5. They know how to develop players
6. They know how to get the most out of marginally talented players more then any team in the league.
7. They don't throw money around like water
8. They spend money wisely

Which is basically the same template Theo is trying to install here.

A. He put up better numbers than DeJesus has. Bradley had a .775 OPS compared to DeJesus .753
B. He cost less money in the end than DeJesus will.
C. When Bradley got traded, they got a serviceable half a season out of Silva. I will be surprised if they trade DeJesus what they get back will ever play an inning of major league baseball.

So basically better on field performance for less money is how he was a better signing than DeJesus. Other than that, not much.

But lets just easily forget how he pretty much destroyed the Cubs locker room, just sayin. That was worth how much, again?


Creme

 

[KBisBack!]

Given your assumption that they would have been able to sign Fielder, what exactly do you think he contributes to the team last year? I can almost guarantee that his numbers would not have been as good as they were in Detroit. He would not have had the same production on the Cubs last year due to the guys around him.

Better than what the Cubs had.

That is all that matters.

Hard to drive in runs when no one is on base in front of you. Also, it is hard to see decent pitches when you don't have a threat hitting behind you. You assume that he would have had more production than Rizzo did last year.

But the great Starlin Castro would have been in front of Fielder.

And I am glad that you brought up not having a threat hitting behind him. He had Delmon fucking Young hitting behind him most of the year. So he put up his numbers last year without having any real protection behind him already. Whoops.

However, if you extrapolate Rizzo's numbers from last year to a full 162 games, they are really close to what Fielder put up. Of course, that doesn't fit your agenda.

Not even close.

His BA was almost 30 points lower. His OBP was 70 points lower. His SLG percentage was about 55 points lower and his OPS was 160 points lowers.

What part of that makes his numbers really close??

He might have been close in HR's but that is about it. His numbers over 162 games still leave him probably close to 30 RBI's short.

You got one small thing right. But of course it isn't like Fielder plays half his games in one of the biggest ballparks in the league or anything.

You are obviously not a fan of Theo and Co. The only problem that you run into when it comes to what they have done so far is that you neglect to bring into account that they can only work within the budget they are given. They are being held back by the Ricketts. The Ricketts' family reminds me of kids that want a puppy. They told their dad that they wanted this "puppy" and that they would take care of it. Only problem is, dad still has to fork out money. He is only concerned with making money from this team. If you really want to be mad at someone in this situation, be mad at Selig. He kept this team from having the owner that the fans deserved, just because he did not want Cuban in the league. Cuban may very well have hired Theo and Co. as well. However, he would be allotting the resources necessary to make the team competitive now as well as in the future.

I have consistently been outspoken against Ricketts also. Pay attention.

But even within the budget Theo and Co. have been given, they have done a terrible job.

And stop with Cuban. It isn't just Selig who didn't want Cuban being an owner, it was every other team that didn't want him either. They don't want someone in there rocking the boat. They dont need another Marge Schott.

Sure he would have put all the resources possible to make the Cubs a winner, but he had 0% chance of buying the team.

Your plans for how to make the team better all originate in a fantasy baseball world where money is no object, and you can sign whatever player you want because they have no choice but to sign with you. That is not reality. It is nice to see you admit that they might not have been able to sign Fielder and Appel...now you just need to stop making it sound like it is a fact that they could have when you post your agenda.

You need to learn how to read better.

I have never said it was a fact they would have been able to sign both.

Just simply putting out a realistic plan that you slurpers whine for that without a doubt improves the team and does not hinder the team's plans to build the farm system or end up having the team not be profitable.

Continue to ignore the facts the Cubs are making little to no effort to put a quality major league product on the field.

 

[KBisBack!]

Fielder had options, Appel had a 4th year of college, we knew Darvish wanted to come stateside, get the big money, and get US stardom for a long time, then when he finally gets his team to post him after such a long wait, he wasn't going to stay there./QUOTE]

So the Cubs should never try to go after a player who has options other than playing for the Cubs huh??

Funny. Almora had the option of going to college didn't he??

Opps.

 

[KBisBack!]

I am not a fan of the way the team is being run. Not from the aspect of the management team, but from the way the owners are doing things. Darvish would have been great. The only problem is, first you have to spend the money on the bid...then you have to spend the money to sign him. They do not want to spend that much money.

Then why get yourself a serious case of diaper rash arguing with people who are pointing out how poorly the team is being run, how the owner is putting profits ahead of wins and offering better alternatives?

Seems fairly counter productive.

 

[KBIB]

Ah yes, I fessed up when I got called on it, sure. Itd be foolish to think Keith Law knows absolutely nothing, hes the Mike Mayock of the MLB. He gets one right, but still throws in a dandy like "Jermaine Gresham is the best tight end in the game."

Of course you fessed up to it, you had no other choice. You lost a ton of credibility here but that really isn't too bad considering I highly doubt you had a lot in the first place. Its just the same ol same, amirite?

When will you fess up to the dozens of times Boyd has caught you with your pants down?

"Boyd" Couldn't catch a guy with his pants down in a gloryhole factory. I have been showing everybody here how to air puppeteer on this fourm using him and his Pinocchio style of logic by just moving my hand around. Whining about this team is like watching an endless loop of the Sally Jesse Raphael show. Its not around any more for a reason, you know.

Exact words he wrote I copied and pasted. It was right after Bundy was drafted, but the screw up in the minors Butler showed life and Law blessed us with his ignorance.

You also said he knocked Jones and was proven a Joseph Smith like tall liar, just a friendly reminder.

Soriano has said he'd accept a trade to certain teams including the Dodgers, Yankees, and Rangers being the primary three. His loss for turning down Frisco, but he didnt want to go there, full no trade plus that 10-5 thing.........

I see you're very quick to forget things too.......

Not the point. You said he was playing to be traded, if that was the case, he turned down a trade last year.

See how that works?


Creme

 

[KBisBack!]

Appel decided to go back to Stanford, end of. This pure rubbish that he had some sort of offer is pish and pure spin doctoring from the Pirates since they gambled a high pick and lost. I find it hilarious tho just how not only the Pirates GM, but also the owner went to the media the second Appel announced his intentions of not signing.

So your brilliant analysis is that the Pirates used the 8th pick in the draft to select a player they planned on never even contacting??

That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

Here is a quote directly from Mark Appel

"After much thought, prayer and analysis of both opportunities, I came to the conclusion the best decision is to remain at Stanford continuing my studies, finishing my degree, and doing all I can to assist the Cardinal baseball team in our goal to win a national championship," Appel said in a statement. "I greatly valued the prospect of a professional opportunity and I will pursue a professional baseball career after getting my Stanford degree."

So please tell me how he was able to analyze something that was never even offered to him??

But lets just easily forget how he pretty much destroyed the Cubs locker room, just sayin. That was worth how much, again?


Creme

Ah yes, the most overrated thing in sports. The love fest in the locker room. Yippie. The crutch of the ignorant.

With that 'destroyed' locker room, the Cubs still won 83 games while the great chemistry team that Sveum had everyone holding hands and sing cumbaya in the locker room before every game last year lost 101 games.

Exactly how much is it really worth??

Looks like not too much.

 

[Jntg4]

Fielder had options, Appel had a 4th year of college, we knew Darvish wanted to come stateside, get the big money, and get US stardom for a long time, then when he finally gets his team to post him after such a long wait, he wasn't going to stay there./QUOTE]

So the Cubs should never try to go after a player who has options other than playing for the Cubs huh??

Funny. Almora had the option of going to college didn't he??

Opps.

That has absolutely nothing to fucking do with what I said. At all. For someone that comments on other's reading comprehensions, you always comment about something out of context.

He was saying Darvish could have signed wherever he wanted to, I was saying that he didn't have the same options that Fielder or Appel did. Fielder could sign anywhere he wants, Appel could hold out and go to another year of college. What was Darvish going to do? He'd been wanting to come to the MLB since the 09 WBC and was waiting all that time to be posted, with no guarantee he'd be posted again a year later, is he just going to pass up that opportunity? Didn't think so.

I did not ever say we shouldn't sign players who have options. Where the **** you got that from, I have no idea. I explained to him the difference in the situations as a case where Darvish did not have that many other options.

 

[Franko725]

Better than what the Cubs had.

That is all that matters.



But the great Starlin Castro would have been in front of Fielder.

And I am glad that you brought up not having a threat hitting behind him. He had Delmon fucking Young hitting behind him most of the year. So he put up his numbers last year without having any real protection behind him already. Whoops.



Not even close.

His BA was almost 30 points lower. His OBP was 70 points lower. His SLG percentage was about 55 points lower and his OPS was 160 points lowers.

What part of that makes his numbers really close??

He might have been close in HR's but that is about it. His numbers over 162 games still leave him probably close to 30 RBI's short.

You got one small thing right. But of course it isn't like Fielder plays half his games in one of the biggest ballparks in the league or anything.



I have consistently been outspoken against Ricketts also. Pay attention.

But even within the budget Theo and Co. have been given, they have done a terrible job.

And stop with Cuban. It isn't just Selig who didn't want Cuban being an owner, it was every other team that didn't want him either. They don't want someone in there rocking the boat. They dont need another Marge Schott.

Sure he would have put all the resources possible to make the Cubs a winner, but he had 0% chance of buying the team.



You need to learn how to read better.

I have never said it was a fact they would have been able to sign both.

Just simply putting out a realistic plan that you slurpers whine for that without a doubt improves the team and does not hinder the team's plans to build the farm system or end up having the team not be profitable.

Continue to ignore the facts the Cubs are making little to no effort to put a quality major league product on the field.

Better how? How can you possibly say his numbers would have been nearly as good on this team? And don't try the argument that he would have been playing in Wrigley all year and automatically had more HR's. The wind blew in more last year than in most any year that I can remember. Len and Bob talked about it on the telecast all the time.

Rizzo's RBI's extrapolated out would have left him 18 RBI short. Math is hard...The difference in WAR is 2.3...so the Cubs would have only lost 99 games...wow, I would have felt SO much better about them! Again, you cannot look at Fielder's numbers playing on Detroit and say he would have done as well with the Cubs.

I will give you that you have never said that they could have signed both...but you sure like to put it out there as something that would have happened. Why would a guy like Fielder want to come to a losing team in the prime of his career?

I am not "slurping" on Theo and Co. I am just saying, that given what they have to work with, they are not doing a terrible job. When you have the limited budget they are given, and you take 50+ million and divide it between Soriano, Marmol, Jackson, and Garza (still not playing), what do you expect to get out of the rest of the lineup given a 100 million dollar budget?

 

[Franko725]

Then why get yourself a serious case of diaper rash arguing with people who are pointing out how poorly the team is being run, how the owner is putting profits ahead of wins and offering better alternatives?

Seems fairly counter productive.

Well, because it is one thing to ***** about a cheap owner...being a long-time Blackhawks fan, I know all about going from a cheap owner to his son who actually cares about winning. It is another thing entirely to act like the team could sign all of these high dollar players with a cheap owner giving no budget. You blast Theo and Co. for not signing high dollar guys, but then admit that they have a terrible budget. Which is it? You cannot think you are going to sign a bunch of great players given what they have to work with.

 

[patg006]

Not the point. You said he was playing to be traded, if that was the case, he turned down a trade last year.

See how that works?
Creme

Not the point. Once again you blatantly miss it.

Soriano said on if he would waive his 10-5 and go with SF: "I don't think so, because San Francisco is not good weather to play," Soriano said. "It's on the West Coast, and I never played on the West Coast. But we'll see what happens. I'll see if they call and talk with my family to see. It's not my call. So I want to talk with my family in case they call and see what happens. I want whats best for my family and the cubs in any situation."

I said it was his loss, but it was his decision. Now on being traded in general via an article on espnchicago:

"I want to go somewhere where I'd feel comfortable," Soriano said Monday.

"(The Cubs) know what teams," Soriano said of a trade this season. "We talked, my agent talked with those guys."

Soriano said there were "6 or 7" teams in the "east or center" that he's given the Cubs as potential landing spots if he's moved.

--So to sum up, hes open to a trade, has/had constant with Thoyer, and is ok with getting dealt if its the right deal. Seeing as how the cubs are paying him 136 million unless someone takes on his contract and he agrees; he wants whats best for the cubs; see the first quote about turning down the giants deal. He will accept a deal if its good for his family and helps the cubs, but he'd rather win with the cubs first.

Go on cupcake, wiggle out of this one......

or forget, I've noticed you've become quite talented at forgetting things you get shown up on.....you're like Kevin Garnett, quick to get in someone's face when you're right, first one scampering off to the lockerroom, tail between legs when wrong.

 

[CSF77]

MB was a scape goat. The problem in 2009 was that A-Ram got injured and the team had no system depth at 3rd base. Year before they had DeRosa who could have covered 3rd. But they moved him to make room in payroll for Bradley. Now was that Bradley's fault that Zell set a no-increase on payroll mandate to Hendry? No. Wasn't Hendry's fault either. Bottom line is the fan base did not like MB from the get go. As I see it continues.

 

[Franko725]

KB was a scape goat. The problem in 2009 was that A-Ram got injured and the team had no system depth at 3rd base. Year before they had DeRosa who could have covered 3rd. But they moved him to make room in payroll for Bradley. Now was that Bradley's fault that Zell set a no-increase on payroll mandate to Hendry? No. Wasn't Hendry's fault either. Bottom line is the fan base did not like MB from the get go. As I see it continues.

Given Bradley's meltdown in Seattle, I think the dislike was warranted. I personally hated to see DeRosa go. He was a versatile player that fit a lot of different positions that this team needed filled over the last few year. You need a DeRosa type on every team. I think Bradley would have been liked much more had he produced up to what was expected. Of course, you know free agents that you sign to make your team better always pan out, right?

 

[Jntg4]

Given Bradley's meltdown in Seattle, I think the dislike was warranted. I personally hated to see DeRosa go. He was a versatile player that fit a lot of different positions that this team needed filled over the last few year. You need a DeRosa type on every team. I think Bradley would have been liked much more had he produced up to what was expected. Of course, you know free agents that you sign to make your team better always pan out, right?

Then again DeRosa didn't do too well after leaving, minus an injury-shortened 2009 in which he at least had a good 1st half

 

[chibears55]

You blast Theo and Co. for not signing high dollar guys, but then admit that they have a terrible budget. Which is it? You cannot think you are going to sign a bunch of great players given what they have to work with.

im trying to figure out their argument on this too.. ricketts brought epstein in for a purpose.. he wanted him to turnover the farm system and try to field a competitive 25 man roster basically on a 100 mil doll. budget and eventually field a future team of mainly home grown players, and when the time is right and their ready to compete for titles he will increase payroll to bring in needed top FAs ..

so, if your going to bash anyone it should be the ricketts for having such a low payroll..
epstein and hoyer are only following what their boss is telling them to do, cause im sure if allowed they would be more then happy to spend on big FAs and have a payroll over 150 mil.. field a team with fielder, hamilton, darvish etc...

so, its hard to argue and complain much about what epstein and hoyer have done given the limited funds they have to spend on the major league level in just 2 off seasons especially considering most of the money ( mostly last yr. ) was tied up on players like soriano, dempster, marmol, etc..

yes, they couldve held onto some of those players but if the main purpose is to eventually have a solid minor league system and field a future team of mostly home grown players then in order to do so you need to have quantity of players in your system in order to find the quality ones that will be part of the future and those veteran players became expendable in order to bring in multiple players in order to find a few quality ones..

so, yes as cubs fans we have to watch awful baseball for a couple of years as they sign the FAs that will eventually be flipped for more prospects or to try and field a somewhat competitive team for the season .. this is going to be a 3-5 year process IMO, depending on the growth of the players in their system and if their able to sign a top FA or two that fits their mold of what they are doing.. the thing is going to be when do they ( epstein and hoyer ) feel the process is ready to start signing FAs to long term big money deals and more importantly when the ricketts will expand payroll to allow them to do so.

so, again i can understand bashing the ricketts for having such a low payroll but not so much epstein and hoyer for basically doing what they were brought in and told to do.. i think theyve done a pretty good job under the circumstances..